NoisyDante
There’s a fine line between stupid and clever.
Bingo
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
Amen Brother! This is exactly how I feel. I may be “old” but I’m healthy and relatively decent shape. If I feel I’ve done my part, then I’ve done what I can do. But if I infected someone else who didn’t survive, because I was some reble without a clue who wouldn’t do anything to protect others, then I don’t know how I could live with myself.
But that’s me. I care about others. For those who are perfectly fine with that kind of thing, as I said, you do you. If erring towards the side of caution and protecting your family, friends and all around you doesn’t matter to you, then go on and be a rebel!
Agreed. No sane, normal person would. But where does the liability end?
A mother tells her son to go to the store and get some laundry detergent and there is a car accident on the way and the son is killed. Is it the mother's fault? She will feel that it is. If she hadn't sent him to the store he would still be alive. Yet we rightfully tell this mother she can't look at it that way. It wasn't her fault.
At what point do we end liability for Covid? If no one had entered the USA from China from Jan 2020 till now, there would be no deaths from Covid. Who is to blame for the half million dead? China or the first couple guys that got off the planes? And who will be to blame for the next death? Those same couple guys or the neighbor that sneezed in the store last week? If someone unknowingly gives me Covid, they are not to blame. If I unknowingly give Covid to someone else, it is the same. Wear a mask? Sure, if you think it really will help. Stay home if I'm feeling ill? Absolutely. Take what I feel are unreasonable medical risks for what appear to be unreasonably low levels of success? No
According to the CDC there have been over 134 million people given the first dose. 40% of the US population. 26% have been given both shots (79 Million). Before the start of shots given to the general population the infection rate was about 60K a day. Since they started giving the shots the rate of infection is holding steady at about 75K a day. 15 thousand a day more than before the shots. So far (1 month in) the shot does not seem to help. That is not surprising since Moderna said it wouldn't stop infections. So getting the shot is not preventing you from giving Covid to someone with a weakened immune system. While it is commendable to want to protect others, getting the shot isn't doing that. If it does end up hurting your long term health, you took that risk for little gain.
alantig
Zombie Four, DFZ
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2012
- Messages
- 14,995
If the only thing different in that time frame was the shots, that argument might hold. But a lot of restrictions have been removed or lessened, and there are more people ignoring the restrictions because they've gotten their shots so they're invincible now.
Perhaps... But if I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that because they have gotten their shots, they are now less inclined to follow the restrictions and if they were following the guidelines the infection rate would be dropping as one would expect. That does make sense. But if that were true then the fact that the infection rate is not dropping, even though they have gotten their shots, means they must must still be contagious even though they have been given the shots. You prove my point.
dmatthews
Dave's not here
I was under the possibly mistaken impression that European travelers brought the first wave.
Been wrong before though.
Out of curiosity, are you happy that I'm vaxxed? Feel safer around me if I am? Avoid me anyway?
Curious...
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
Not to pile on Clash (which he doesn't seem to mind) but the ignorant comments about masks are also getting old. "If you can smell perfume, it means the mask doesn't help prevent the virus" is almost willfully ignorant. If you and I stand face to face with masks on, and you cough and sneeze repeatedly and I stand right in front of you breathing it, there is no question I could get it from you while we're both wearing masks. THIS DOES NOT MEAN MASKS DON'T WORK!
In any real world situation though, there is NO QUESTION that they make a big difference. If the "blast zone" for a sneeze is 20 feet, meaning if you had it, you could put virus in the air up to 20 feet away, the amount of virus you put into the air would be cut to a small fraction, and the distance around you that you put out virus would also be cut into a small fraction if you are wearing a mask when you sneeze. With a mask less than 10% of that virus is likely to even get into the air, and less than arms length from the person sneezing.
On the other end, if there is some virus in the air, we all know that it CAN go through most masks, but only a percentage of it makes it through to those wearing a mask when around the infected person.
One study said that in a room with 100 people and one person infected, with no masks there is a good change the majority of people in the room get it (assuming it's a party or mingling type meeting, were people are moving about and socializing). With masks, it's possible that nobody else gets it, and likely that only the few that spent time face to face with the infected person are infected.
I just don't see how people can continue to say "masks don't work." Masks are not 100% guarantee, but several studies show they can exceed 95% reduction of spread. If you can argue with those numbers, then you are choosing to ignore facts.
In any real world situation though, there is NO QUESTION that they make a big difference. If the "blast zone" for a sneeze is 20 feet, meaning if you had it, you could put virus in the air up to 20 feet away, the amount of virus you put into the air would be cut to a small fraction, and the distance around you that you put out virus would also be cut into a small fraction if you are wearing a mask when you sneeze. With a mask less than 10% of that virus is likely to even get into the air, and less than arms length from the person sneezing.
On the other end, if there is some virus in the air, we all know that it CAN go through most masks, but only a percentage of it makes it through to those wearing a mask when around the infected person.
One study said that in a room with 100 people and one person infected, with no masks there is a good change the majority of people in the room get it (assuming it's a party or mingling type meeting, were people are moving about and socializing). With masks, it's possible that nobody else gets it, and likely that only the few that spent time face to face with the infected person are infected.
I just don't see how people can continue to say "masks don't work." Masks are not 100% guarantee, but several studies show they can exceed 95% reduction of spread. If you can argue with those numbers, then you are choosing to ignore facts.
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I wondered if we would need to clarify the origin point. I believe the cases on the east coast were indeed coming from Europe but the ones in LA and SanFan were from China. But whether the East coast cases made a prolonged (a few days) stop in Europe or not, they had to have originated from Wuhan. I was just abbreviating.
To your much more salient points. Do I feel safer around you? No. For 2 reasons. 1. I wouldn't feel unsafe around you if you didn't get it. 10% of the population have contracted the virus so far. 90% of those have recovered and are no longer contagious. So 1% of the population could make me sick. If I'm standing next to you I have a 1% chance of being exposed. 2. Pfizer and Moderna have said the shots do not protect against passing on the infection. If you believe them, your taking a risk of side effects does not lessen mine for exposure. Your last unanswered question is the most important. Am I happy you got vaxxed? No, I am saddened. Because I consider you a friend and I don't want to see you hurt by the vaccine (if it causes unintended consequences). Because you have, I hope I am wrong and there is nothing unknown with it. The same with my children who are in the health care industry and have gotten it. But time will tell.
jxe
babe en der wood
nothing wrong with being a skeptic but refusing to mask up until some poor waitress asks (or doesn’t have the nerve to because you are a regular customer, ‘gary’) is antisocial and i haven’t been back to the schooner since.
dmatthews
Dave's not here
I hope your kids stay OK as well mate. Not worried about me in the long term as I'm on the downside of time left anyway.
I'm just doing what I feel is best to keep from being intubated, or as Peter said putting someone else in peril.
Though @Clash may have said something as well, the "if you can smell perfume" comment was made by me. I was not insinuating that there is no good whatsoever to wearing a mask. I do wear one for the first reason. It won't stop the transfer of the virus for the second.
First, it is clear that it will stop your droplets from becoming projectiles and launching into the air a few feet from you if you sneeze. Is that beneficial? Yes. My comment was about the 2nd way of transmitting the virus. When the moist air leaves your body as you breathe, it passes through or around the mask and into the air around you, like the air that flows past a woman wearing perfume, and that air will have the virus in it. That air will remain at mouth and nose level for quite some time and it has been scientifically proven that the virus lives in that environment for hours. So Do we benefit from wearing masks? Yes. It stops most of one of the two ways of transfer. If someone coughs or sneezes, it helps a little but not completely as the openings around your face can let some of those droplets out. This method of transfer is not the most common one. The air transfer method is most common and it is not altered by wearing a mask. I'm not willfully ignorant.
Wakester
Re Member
The initial wave of East Coast (particularly New York / New Jersey) originated from China. Tracers were able to track backwards to 3 individuals on an Air China flight that landed at Kennedy International in late February, early March of 2020. Additional infections were brought into the area from Europe by members of a religious sect that refused to comply with stay at home orders. Several factors allowed the rapid spread of the disease:
- Travel Restrictions were implemented far to late to effectively slow or contain the spread.
- People did not understand, comprehend, care how serious of a threat this disease is to the at risk population.
- The Governor of New York refused aide from the Federal Government, and placed infected patients into nursing homes instead of the isolation facilities sent by the President. The USS Comfort sat in the Port Of New York, unused, despite the need. The Javitts Center was converted to a hospital for C19 patients but was also unused.
- Early on, there was no fast and reliable method of testing and diagnosing the disease, so a lot of infected people were unknowingly spreading the virus to more unsuspecting people.
It is true that the vaccines will not prevent the spread of the disease. They only reduce the effects the virus has on the infected person, to the point, that it will prevent the death of the infected person. That is what vaccines do. It doesn't matter if it is C19, Influenza, Polio, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, etc. No vaccine will destroy/kill a viral agent. That is not what they do, that's not how it works. So long as there is a host, the virus will continue to exist.
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
I wasn't addressing you specifically. That comment has been made over and over about "if you can smell perfume" or whatever, and is a common argument from people who don't want to wear a mask.
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
Want to hear true genius at work? Here goes. I had this idea a year ago when this thing had just kicked in full steam.
I told my wife 2 things that needed to happen. 1) we needed an air filtration system that would remove the virus from the air. At the time, ultraviolet light was supposed to be very effective. I told her that any place people congregate, would need to had ultraviolet filtration systems added to their HVAC systems.
Second one is probably tougher than that for existing structures, but should become a standard in new ones. All incoming air to a space should be brought in from the ground level, and all "return" air should be pulled out of the room at the ceiling. And, the fans would need to run fulltime, at least until this virus is gone.
This would actively pull the infected air up and out of the breathing range/height our heads are, and would remove the virus from the air. Two steps, change the world. I'm going to need a million dollars to patent this and get a startup going. Anyone want to lend me some coin?
I told my wife 2 things that needed to happen. 1) we needed an air filtration system that would remove the virus from the air. At the time, ultraviolet light was supposed to be very effective. I told her that any place people congregate, would need to had ultraviolet filtration systems added to their HVAC systems.
Second one is probably tougher than that for existing structures, but should become a standard in new ones. All incoming air to a space should be brought in from the ground level, and all "return" air should be pulled out of the room at the ceiling. And, the fans would need to run fulltime, at least until this virus is gone.
This would actively pull the infected air up and out of the breathing range/height our heads are, and would remove the virus from the air. Two steps, change the world. I'm going to need a million dollars to patent this and get a startup going. Anyone want to lend me some coin?
bodia
Authorities said.....best leave it.....unsolved
It's pretty clear in the Chicagoland area that case increases are linked to in person learning having started back up. There are hundreds of kids in the area that are currently in quarantine. No one under 16 can get a shot, yet. And 16+ just opened up Monday.
Interesting point. Let's watch what happens.
I hope you make millions! It is a good idea but it's already done in industry. You will be proliferating it in living spaces. We do this now with clean room air but we actually do it in the reverse direction. The air is brought in from the upper portion of the room and it is pulled out through the floor. This lets gravity help you and it keeps the unwanted particles as low in the room as possible. Dust and lint from shoes and clothes does not have to be pushed out against gravity.
Thanks Pete. Haven’t thought much about myself over the past year because there are so many more compromised people. But as a crap lottery winner in a few regards, it seemed a bad idea to thumb my nose at obscure statistics. “What are the chances of...blah blah blah?” Guess what? I’ve weighed those odds a couple of times in my life and not come up on the winning side. On the flip side of that coin, despite the insurmountable odds, I’ve survived them both. It would be a terrible shame to erase those wins with the inconsideration of a neigh-sayer. Now, if they came up and just coughed on me, at least I’d have the gratification of a throat-punch response. I’ve still got the gumption and agility to make that happen.
D
Deleted member 5962
Guest
Dang it, there goes my Private Stock.
Seriously, I thought pulling it up made more sense in that the "returns" could be located in the center of any room, and would be pulling it up to an area with no flow diffusors (people, furniture, etc.). Seemed that would be more effective than pulling it down into all the other "stuff" that's in the way. However, I'm no aerodynamics expert, I'm just a guy on the internet pretending to be one.
jxe
babe en der wood
these systems are available and i can’t afford one — but i bet i could make one by the time the next lockdown hits. i do need to figure out how to grow my own lettuce, fresh produce is the only reason to leave the house these days.
