Santana and HFS/VB pups: Internet vs Real Life

[AP515]

Personally, I liked the VB, but not the HFS in my old CE24. The pickups got switched over to 57/08's when they first came out. My ears told me that the HFS had a ceramic magnet, and I found it ice-picky. I'd be curious to know if I was right. I don't like Ceramic pickups,

You are correct sir...about it being ceramic, not about it being ice-picky. Use the tone knob people!

 

[shallbe]

See, I love the DII neck pickup. Lower that sucker even with the ring, and bury the pole pieces.... magical.

The DII neck pickup is much better than the bridge, IMO. I had 2 sets of these. The 2003 guitar with them---yuck. Just overwound, overwaxed, overcompressed. Replaced with Lollar Imperials and it was literally night and day.

The set in my 2008 CU22 were MUCH better. Great sound from both, but still too compressed. Robbed the dynamics I crave from my amp. The DGT pickups are a wonderful example of a pickup with great dynamics and a dash of sweet compression on attack.

I thought I did not like ceramic pickups either. Then I got my 2008 CU24AP and loved the HFS in there. Then came the used 2003 Santana II---the stock bridge pickup is fantastic. Clear, powerful and dynamic. So I don't discriminate on magnet types or windings or any of that anymore. If it sounds and feels good, I like it.

 

[Jazzedout]

Have said that before, will say it again: The HFS and the Dimarzio ToneZone are the pickups I grew up with.
Regardless what else comes along while tastes change, I always feel at home when playing a guitar with either pickups.

 

[Jazzedout]

They are in my '92 Custom since its birth and they will stay there!!!
I love the HFS for heavier sounds, but rolling back the volume creates very usable tones. The VB is a great all-round pickup and the rotary 5 way creates very useful sound combinations.

The HFS and the Dimarzio Tone Zone, are the pickups I grew up with, so it might just be that I am really used to them.
I also like lower output pickups, I have a guitar with Dimarzio 36th Anniv PAFs that I love, I have single coil guitars and a BRW 513 (which gets the most of my playtime nowadays) but when I take out the Custom24 with the HFS or my old Ibanez RG550 with the ToneZone, they just feel like home!!!

Had more time to write this better on March 23 2018...

 

[NBW]

I might be odd. I went to Dave’s yesterday. I was seriously thinking about trading in my 71 Mustang on a 18 CU 24. So I played the CU 24, it was nice. But the tones I get from my lowly SE Standard 24 with the BKs are much nicer to my ears.

The people at Dave’s are awesome and if you have a chance you should stop by.

 

[Black Plaid]

I might be odd. I went to Dave’s yesterday. I was seriously thinking about trading in my 71 Mustang on a 18 CU 24. So I played the CU 24, it was nice. But the tones I get from my lowly SE Standard 24 with the BKs are much nicer to my ears.

The people at Dave’s are awesome and if you have a chance you should stop by.

They do seem nice, I bought my ME1 from them, and it's currently my favorite guitar.

 

[BWV548]

I’ve no experience with those pickups. However, it’s the internet, so it must be right. I mean, they have me, as a PRS player, pegged as a DDS, MD, and/or JD. I have degrees in none of those, but the internet knows. As such, I’ll be doing a root canal on it, then severing its corpus callosum. After those procedures, I’ll be suing myself on its behalf

 

[danktat]

I hear more hate for D2's than any of the other pups. They, for me, are my ideal. They clean up nicely for me and have enough natural compression that my sloppy picking doesn't sound like it is all over the place. To the point that a compressor is only used to add some sustain for me. Perhaps those with better playing technique don't like them as much....BUT, I think a lot of it is simply that they were on so many production guitars for so many years that they are considered the "generic" starting point that you get when you buy one, and then, like pipes on a Harley, you just have to pay the pickup tax and switch them to something (anything) else as soon as you lay your hands on the guitar.

 

[Rider1260]

I did like the VB/HFS set in my CU24 the 2 + 4 positions on the rotary were money !!! and plugged into my Mesa MKII it just made me smile.
I have a 88 Multifoil at the house that has me rethinking at least having one guitar with VB/HFS and a rotary.
The Multi Foil is out of my league price wise BUT a Standard 24 or CE 24 with those pickups would be a winner

 

[Big Mike]

The internet seems to collectively hate the HFS/VB combo and Santana pickups, a negative response is pretty much a given whenever I read about these, and recommendations for replacement is always among the responses.

But.... if you really think about it... what other pickup sets have a more proven track record?

Santana’s Supernatural sold like, twenty million certified copies! And think about all the NuMetal bands.. all those guys with CE’s and CU24’s combined, have to equal another... IDK, 10-15 million more records?

Consider that the HFS/VB combo has been in production for twenty-eight years!!!!

If there’s a “PRS sound”, wouldn’t these be it?

What does the internet know that all these professional musicians don’t? (rhetorical question)

Maybe David Grissom with John Cougar Summercamp or the Dixie Chicks, whatever songs Brent Mason did when he was rockin’ his signature, some of the NuCountry/Bro-country dudes, and when Mark was doin’ Creed approached a portion of those sales but.... why are these pickups so hated on the interweb?

Don’t get me wrong, I do absolutely love my 5*/** pickups and would prefer them for some instances, but for some stuff... my Santana and HFS pickups are the sh!t.

First and foremost I believe you should trust your own ears, however... who you gonna believe when looking for pickup recommendations; the internet or real life?

Used my own ears
Would rather jab an ice pick and end the suffering than ever use an HFS Again.
Dragons, D2, McCarty, standard T and B, some one off stuff from orkie, the old artist pickups...love em.

Still trying to decide if I’m jibing with the dgt pickups much as I like the guitar

 

[shinksma]

So yesterday I decided to run through a bunch of my guitars with a variety of pickups, but focused on my 1990 CE which has VB + HFS pups.

If I put the bright switch on my Sweet 16, use the bridge pick up only (HFS), with tone and volume at 10, using a relatively bright setting on a dirt pedal, I can get it a little "too bright". Turn off the bright switch or turn down the tone, and it just sounds "nice and trebly, punchy", as it should.

I dunno, maybe I just have too much hearing loss in the high end to think "ice picks". But my wife agreed with my assessment, and her hearing is fine (as far as we know, I guess). I like my HFS+VBs - got them in the CE and in a 2002 CU24.

:shrug: (need a shrug emoji) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[László]

My theory: it's about the change in tastes in amplification.

That seems right to me.

 

[Steve's addiction]

I love em in the CE 24. It's part of the reason why it's my favorite. Also have em in my cu 24 but I don't care for them as much. CE has a 5 way and CU has coil tap.

 

[Sage]

I currently own three PRS electrics:
2008 Custom 24 with Dragon II pickups
1992 CE-24 with HFS/VB pickups
2018 Private Stock Cu24 Semi-Hollow with 57/08 pickups

I love all three pickup sets. The Dragon II is probably the most maligned pickup I’ve seen online. People say it’s too “compressed.” I’ve learned that when a guitarist says that, he means its mids are too pronounced (Eric Clapton used to mistakenly refer to the active mid-boost circuit in his signature Strat as a “compressor”). Me, I like a lot of mids, seeing as how I play mostly classic hard rock. The Dragon IIs are great for that. They can be a little dark compared to other pickups, but I find that is easily remedied by turning up the presence on my amp.

The VB is one of my favorite neck humbuckers ever made. It’s remarkably clean and clear-sounding. I feel like it could even pass for a single coil if EQ’d properly. The HFS is extremely well-balanced, which is to be expected from a good ceramic pickup, but some people interpret that sound as “sterile.” To me it just means the pickup takes to EQ very well. I’ve always assumed it was PRS’s take on the Dimarzio Super Distortion, a similarly well-balanced, high output ceramic pickup.

I doubt I need to describe the 57/08s to anyone, but I will say they are good for when you want to let the amp handle the gain rather than have it pushed by the pickups. I love them and the guitar they’re in is probably my favorite, but I would argue those pickups are actually less versatile than the other two sets. They do the job I need them to do extremely well, but they don’t split as well as the HFS/VB or Dragon II sets.

Gotta agree with Sergio that these older pickups are vastly underrated.

 

[Big Mike]

The D2 aren’t bad at all
The pickups in the s1, S2 and S3 were good


I’d kill to have a set of artist pickups again
Sigh

 

[Boogie]

Many players use too much gain, I'm guilty of it sometimes as well. Gain is an easy way to hide my crummy playing technique. The problem with the HFS/VB pickups (IMO) is when they are used with too much gain. When used for clean tones or with a small amount of gain, the HFS/VB's are amazing.

That’s a fair and accurate statement. It’s also my experience with any ceramic magnet pickup. Since I played one of the most potentially high gain amps of its day for 20+ years, I fell victim to this situation often. Setting the amp for the individual guitar is essential, but inconvenient for live situations. (Clearly I lived with it since both the amp and guitar are still around and have oodles of miles on them both.)

I'm 100% guilty of not giving the VB/HFS combo a chance in my CU24. The guitar played and felt incredible from day 1, but when I plugged it in I was instantly "offended" by the tone that came from it. (Most likely due to what Shawn said above).

“Offended” is way too harsh of a description for my experience. More, annoyed. But if I moved into a band situation where I needed to stand out, the annoyance disappeared.

I’ve found the more guitars I have, the more I want them to be different, and the less I think about swapping pickups.

Yep. But playing live and finding a guitar that physically speaks to me (think: Vela) leads my thinking to morphing it into what I need for a particular band. If/when that band need dissipates, the Vela will probably go back to stock config. Damn...that RL Vela is the most comfortable guitar I own and is a joy to play!

 

[MichaelS]

The internet seems to collectively hate the HFS/VB combo and Santana pickups, a negative response is pretty much a given whenever I read about these, and recommendations for replacement is always among the responses.

But.... if you really think about it... what other pickup sets have a more proven track record?

Santana’s Supernatural sold like, twenty million certified copies! And think about all the NuMetal bands.. all those guys with CE’s and CU24’s combined, have to equal another... IDK, 10-15 million more records?

Consider that the HFS/VB combo has been in production for twenty-eight years!!!!

If there’s a “PRS sound”, wouldn’t these be it?

What does the internet know that all these professional musicians don’t? (rhetorical question)

Maybe David Grissom with John Cougar Summercamp or the Dixie Chicks, whatever songs Brent Mason did when he was rockin’ his signature, some of the NuCountry/Bro-country dudes, and when Mark was doin’ Creed approached a portion of those sales but.... why are these pickups so hated on the interweb?

Don’t get me wrong, I do absolutely love my 5*/** pickups and would prefer them for some instances, but for some stuff... my Santana and HFS pickups are the sh!t.

First and foremost I believe you should trust your own ears, however... who you gonna believe when looking for pickup recommendations; the internet or real life?

...late to the party here, and might not read the whole thread, but I frickin LOVE Santanas.
Put HFS/VB into an SE22 and they're mighty fine too.

 

[MichaelS]

Personally, I liked the VB, but not the HFS in my old CE24. The pickups got switched over to 57/08's when they first came out. My ears told me that the HFS had a ceramic magnet, and I found it ice-picky. I'd be curious to know if I was right. I don't like Ceramic pickups,

 

[dogrocketp]

So yesterday I decided to run through a bunch of my guitars with a variety of pickups, but focused on my 1990 CE which has VB + HFS pups.

If I put the bright switch on my Sweet 16, use the bridge pick up only (HFS), with tone and volume at 10, using a relatively bright setting on a dirt pedal, I can get it a little "too bright". Turn off the bright switch or turn down the tone, and it just sounds "nice and trebly, punchy", as it should.

I dunno, maybe I just have too much hearing loss in the high end to think "ice picks". But my wife agreed with my assessment, and her hearing is fine (as far as we know, I guess). I like my HFS+VBs - got them in the CE and in a 2002 CU24.

:shrug: (need a shrug emoji) ¯\_(ツ)
I think it depends on a bunch of factors. My younger son has a 2006 mahogany ce24 with vb/hfs and a 5 way. It sounds unbelievably good with his Morgan SW 50R amp. I use a 2 channel 20 or 30, or a Tech 21 trademark 60. They like PRS pickups, except I didn’t Like the sound of the hfs. So we have body wood, neck wood, fingerboard wood, tailpiece type, player’s technique, music types, and volume levels all affecting the sound. And there are numerous other factors. For me, the fun is learning what other people hear and play that they like. We’re not better or worse, just different. I do go from a basic rhythm sound to solo sound, when I play, so there’s no time to tweak other than the basic settings I use for each song. By the way, I’m a humbucker guy.

 

[shinksma]

That is quite an interesting video! I had no preconceptions about ceramic vs alnico, so I always wondered how folks heard one thing vs another when it came to pick-up construction and the type of magnets (see many of my previous posts about my general ignorance about pickups that is only now being informed).