NECK WOOD: Mahogany vs Maple

[HANGAR18]

NECK WOOD: Mahogany vs Maple

One neat thing about having 12 electric guitars (all hanging up right next to each other in the same room, each with a strap mounted on it and the guitar is ready to go) is that I will often do spontaneous A/B demos (acoustically with no amp) where I will re-evaluate each guitar for playability comfort and to a small degree tone too.

I compare the weight of the guitars (heavy ones vs light ones). I compare the thicker necks versus the thinner necks. I compare the singlecuts versus the doublecuts. Rapidly comparing one against the other makes the differences much more clearly identifiable. Then I ask myself, do I still like this neck profile over that neck profile? Do I still like this body design better than that body design ans so on.

But something unusual has emerged from my comparative re-evaluations. Yesterday I compared all 12 against each other and noticed for the first time that both guitars which have MAPLE necks with a Rosewood fingerboard have much less felt vibration (which I normally feel through my left hand and torso where I make direct contact with the instrument) than the other guitars which have a Maghogany neck with a Rosewood fingerboard.

I strummed my 30th Anniversary CU24 (Hog neck) and then immediately switched to my 2018 CU24-08 (maple neck). The brand new 24-08 with the Maple neck felt like I was playing a rubber guitar as their was basically no perceivable felt vibration in my hand or torso whereas I could feel a lot of vibration in the 30th Anniv. CU24 with the Hog neck.

I then began focusing on comparing my two McCarty 594's a one has a Maple/Rosewood neck while the other have a Mahogany/Rosewood neck. Much less felt vibration from the Maple/Rosewood neck in that comparison too. The vibration wasn't nearly dead zero like in the CU24-08 but there was definitely a LOT less less felt vibration between the two.

SO, has anyone ever noticed this sort of thing before? In the back of my mind I remember the PRSh videos where he talks about how nothing in the instrument should subtract from (absorb energy) and so I'm wondering what is going on here with these Maple necks. They say Maple provides a "brighter tone". But so would a solid acrylic neck. Perhaps this lends insight as to WHY a Maple neck is associated with a brighter tone in that is it REALLY solid wood and that it just doesn't vibrate as much.

Input & feedback welcome. I'm just wondering why I got the results I did.

 

[jvin248]

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Hang a guitar from a wall hanger and strum it. Hear how the wall sounds. Then hang it from the strap on your body and strum it. What changes in the 'tones'?...

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[WA Paul]

Sounds like my kind of empirical research!

I used to have a Coll IX, which was curly maple and African Blackwood board. Rang out for days, Gen III trem. Didn’t like the tone, sold it. I’m a tone idiot at times...

Had a SCT with Obeche body, maple top and back, curly maple neck, cocobolo board. Rang out for days. Gen II trem. Sold it, ultimately was seeking more of a ME I SCT tone (wish I had this back!).

My only current guitar with a curly maple neck also has a curly maple board, is a glued-in Knaggs Severn. Also rings out for days. Really noticeably.

My other guitars ring out well too:
Hog neck with Mad. RW board
Pernie with Ebony (sustain for days)
Braz with Braz (three like this, my fav)
Hog with Braz

Are any setups needed due to changes in the weather/season? Binding at the nut? Age of strings? Pickup height? Trem vs non-trem? How many springs on the trem? How noticeable is this playing the guitar plugged in? I have a chronic illness and sometimes when I have a bad day, I swear my guitars don’t resonate. Next day in a better mood and they are fantastic again...but like I said I can be a tone idiot

 

[shimmilou]

I agree HANGAR18, there is a difference in the way the different woods vibrate/resonate.

WA Paul, there is a difference between feeling the vibration through the body, and the length of time that the strings vibrate. I believe that HANGAR18 was referring to the former, not the latter.

 

[WA Paul]

I agree HANGAR18, there is a difference in the way the different woods vibrate/resonate.

WA Paul, there is a difference between feeling the vibration through the body, and the length of time that the strings vibrate. I believe that HANGAR18 was referring to the former, not the latter.

Yep! Poor word choices on my part. I can (and did) feel the vibration from the neck through my hand and forearm for all the guitars I described above.

 

[veinbuster]

Interesting. I might check for that when I get home.

 

[Rusty Chops]

Makes sense.

People say wood doesn’t matter, only pickups: but I think you’ve discovered an important point.

And, as Paul says, “Everything matters.”

 

[dogrocketp]

Question for you, Hangar. How much more playing time does the 30th Anni have on it, compared to the 2018? I think some guitars need a longer break in time than others, especially maple necks. I favor maple necks for the snap, but they seem to take 3 times as long to break in. Wish I knew why. I can feel certain guitars loosen up after a few months of constant playing.

 

[HANGAR18]

Question for you, Hanger. How much more playing time does the 30th Anni have on it, compared to the 2018? I think some guitars need a longer break in time than others, especially maple necks. I favor maple necks for the snap, but they seem to take 3 times as long to break in. Wish I knew why.

Maybe that's it. The CU24-08 is only a couple of months old, if that. Double digit number of days old. It also has a BRW fingerboard. Maybe the glue is still drying.

The 594 with the Maple/Rosewood neck was made in 2017 and has had a little more time for the glue to dry.

The 30th Anniversary Mahogany/Rosewood neck was actually made late in 2014 so its been around a little while.

 

[Tonart]

Makes sense.

People say wood doesn’t matter, only pickups: but I think you’ve discovered an important point.

And, as Paul says, “Everything matters.”

Yessir indeed. Pickups can only sense metal and not wood. They’re like Mr Magneto. But who is to say, the wood does not affect how the metal itself vibrates, that sits on it, that is binded on it with such great tension as one? I think that’s the point most of the ‘nay’ crowd out there miss. They just think magnetic-electric pickups can only sense metal, so that’s that.

When a human sings on a suspension bridge, I would go so far as to say the vibration of the suspension bridge affects the vibration of the vocal cords, cos the bridge is vibrating the entire human from the outside. So if a suspension bridge has an inherent ‘tone’ (ie vibration pattern) and the human voice has an inherent ‘tone’, the resultant an observer (eg meat detector pickup) on the ground would detect would be a hybrid bridge-human vox tone.

Same logic, except a guitar neck vibrates a whole lot more than a suspension bridge in relative terms.

My own sure experience is that it does matter a lot. But it has to be the right type / condition of wood, the right magic guitar, and the ear must know what to listen for.

#10

 

[Rusty Chops]

I always thought that anything that absorbs frequencies, instead of reflecting and sustaining them all, will have an effect on tone.

An L-5 certainly will absorb more frequencies than a Les Paul.

Sure, I can roll off a tone pot on the LP and get an acceptable so-called jazz tone, but the sustain, feel, and whole experience can be way different if I’m in an intimate setting: it’s harder to dial in.

On the other hand, if I’m using a lot of gain and flapping my pant legs with a 4X12 cabinet, I’m going to have problems with an L-5, and the tone nuances will likely be missed.

 

[László]

Yessir indeed. Pickups can only sense metal and not wood. They’re like Mr Magneto. But who is to say, the wood does not affect how the metal itself vibrates, that sits on it, that is binded on it with such great tension as one? I think that’s the point most of the ‘nay’ crowd out there miss. They just think magnetic-electric pickups can only sense metal, so that’s that.

When a human sings on a suspension bridge, I would go so far as to say the vibration of the suspension bridge affects the vibration of the vocal cords, cos the bridge is vibrating the entire human from the outside. So if a suspension bridge has an inherent ‘tone’ (ie vibration pattern) and the human voice has an inherent ‘tone’, the resultant an observer (eg meat detector pickup) on the ground would detect would be a hybrid bridge-human vox tone.

Same logic, except a guitar neck vibrates a whole lot more than a suspension bridge in relative terms.

My own sure experience is that it does matter a lot. But it has to be the right type / condition of wood, the right magic guitar, and the ear must know what to listen for.

#10

Here’s a fact we often don’t think about when it comes to the wood mattering...

Pickups not only pick up magnetic vibrations from the strings; to a greater or lesser degree, pickups also pick up direct vibrations from the wood by virtue of the fact that they’re microphonic.

First, what happens with the magnetic pickup end of things; here’s my theory - and as I understand it Paul makes a similar point - is that a guitar works like a subtractive synth. Consider the minimoog: you have oscillators (think the string vibrating) you have modulation in the form of LFOs (low frequency oscillators - think a bit of stretch and wobble in the strings, as you strum them, and as they vibrate various parts and then there’s the trem on some guitars; you have a subtractive filter (think the wood affecting and damping how the string vibrates), and you have a an emphasis or “resonance” control (this would be represented by the guitar resonating).

All well and good; obviously the wood resonates and the tone’s filtered by how the wood plays against the string’s vibration - if it was just a matter of magnetic pickups and strings, a hollow body guitar would sound just like a solid body guitar, but that doesn’t happen, they sound different. That’s resonance affecting how the strings vibrate.

And different woods resonate in different ways, and therefore affect how the wood filters the tone of the string.

But you have to throw in the microphonic pickup factor. Not only do guitar pickups have feedback due to resonances from loud amps and so on (this is why they’re potted, to prevent this microphonic vibration), they also pick up some of the vibrations directly from the guitar.

We all know from experience that different guitars with identical pickups and hardware, but different woods or construction sound different. Hell different guitars of the same model, same woods, sound different.

This is empirical stuff. Play a bunch of guitars, it’s easy to hear, right?

Bang on a piece of mahogany, you hear a very clear note. Bang on a piece of maple, you hear a different note. They’re resonating differently. The neck holds the fretboard, nut, frets, etc. Make it resonate differently, and that vibration is going to affect the strings it touches, and their vibration. Because it has to. There’s no getting around it.

Even with acoustics, I can tell you that my maple bodied Tonare Grand with maple neck, Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard, sounds very different from the Cocobolo Tonare Grand with Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard that preceded it.

Very different, yet in the same family. Like two sisters with different voices, and there’s no mistaking one for the other.

They sound different because the woods have different resonances, etc., and as a result they HAVE to sound different, there’s no getting around it!

Every luthier knows this, and most guitar players know it, but you still see folks sayin’ “Nope. Impossible.”

I don’t know how the folks in denial of what their own hands and ears are telling them can ignore that and obey their brain when it tells them them they’re imagining things, but apparently that’s a thing!

 

[Rusty Chops]

Never run ‘em on regular gas.

My first electric guitar was kerosene powered.
-Ledward Kaanapa

 

[Tonart]

Here’s a fact we often don’t think about when it comes to the wood mattering...

Pickups not only pick up magnetic vibrations from the strings; to a greater or lesser degree, pickups also pick up direct vibrations from the wood by virtue of the fact that they’re microphonic.

First, what happens with the magnetic pickup end of things; here’s my theory - and as I understand it Paul makes a similar point - is that a guitar works like a subtractive synth. Consider the minimoog: you have oscillators (think the string vibrating) you have modulation in the form of LFOs (low frequency oscillators - think a bit of stretch and wobble in the strings, as you strum them, and as they vibrate various parts and then there’s the trem on some guitars; you have a subtractive filter (think the wood affecting and damping how the string vibrates), and you have a an emphasis or “resonance” control (this would be represented by the guitar resonating).

All well and good; obviously the wood resonates and the tone’s filtered by how the wood plays against the string’s vibration - if it was just a matter of magnetic pickups and strings, a hollow body guitar would sound just like a solid body guitar, but that doesn’t happen, they sound different. That’s resonance affecting how the strings vibrate.

And different woods resonate in different ways, and therefore affect how the wood filters the tone of the string.

But you have to throw in the microphonic pickup factor. Not only do guitar pickups have feedback due to resonances from loud amps and so on (this is why they’re potted, to prevent this microphonic vibration), they also pick up some of the vibrations directly from the guitar.

We all know from experience that different guitars with identical pickups and hardware, but different woods or construction sound different. Hell different guitars of the same model, same woods, sound different.

This is empirical stuff. Play a bunch of guitars, it’s easy to hear, right?

Bang on a piece of mahogany, you hear a very clear note. Bang on a piece of maple, you hear a different note. They’re resonating differently. The neck holds the fretboard, nut, frets, etc. Make it resonate differently, and that vibration is going to affect the strings it touches, and their vibration. Because it has to. There’s no getting around it.

Even with acoustics, I can tell you that my maple bodied Tonare Grand with maple neck, Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard, sounds very different from the Cocobolo Tonare Grand with Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard that preceded it.

Very different, yet in the same family. Like two sisters with different voices, and there’s no mistaking one for the other.

They sound different because the woods have different resonances, etc., and as a result they HAVE to sound different, there’s no getting around it!

Every luthier knows this, and most guitar players know it, but you still see folks sayin’ “Nope. Impossible.”

I don’t know how the folks in denial of what their own hands and ears are telling them can ignore that and obey their brain when it tells them them they’re imagining things, but apparently that’s a thing!

Great point! Totally missed that out. As long as the magnet can move even at a microscopic scale relative the the coil, you have magnetic flux resulting in current induction. That’s what’s happening everytime you rap your knuckles on the guitar body. You’re forcing micro relative movement between the magnet and coil, in a vibrational pattern that’s the same as how the wood is vibrating. That’s why we hear the knuckle rap coming out of the amp, as well as the hollowbody tone. That’s how they’re microphonic I’m guessing. Microphonic not from air vibrations but from direct forced vibration.

 

[László]

Great point! Totally missed that out. As long as the magnet can move even at a microscopic scale relative the the coil, you have magnetic flux resulting in current induction. That’s what’s happening everytime you rap your knuckles on the guitar body. You’re forcing micro relative movement between the magnet and coil, in a vibrational pattern that’s the same as how the wood is vibrating. That’s why we hear the knuckle rap coming out of the amp, as well as the hollowbody tone. That’s how they’re microphonic I’m guessing. Microphonic not from air vibrations but from direct forced vibration.

There’s also amp feedback, and that depends on volume, i.e., vibration caused by sound waves in the air. It’s kind of two things combined.

 

[HANGAR18]

Here’s a fact we often don’t think about when it comes to the wood mattering...

Pickups not only pick up magnetic vibrations from the strings; to a greater or lesser degree, pickups also pick up direct vibrations from the wood by virtue of the fact that they’re microphonic.

First, what happens with the magnetic pickup end of things; here’s my theory - and as I understand it Paul makes a similar point - is that a guitar works like a subtractive synth. Consider the minimoog: you have oscillators (think the string vibrating) you have modulation in the form of LFOs (low frequency oscillators - think a bit of stretch and wobble in the strings, as you strum them, and as they vibrate various parts and then there’s the trem on some guitars; you have a subtractive filter (think the wood affecting and damping how the string vibrates), and you have a an emphasis or “resonance” control (this would be represented by the guitar resonating).

All well and good; obviously the wood resonates and the tone’s filtered by how the wood plays against the string’s vibration - if it was just a matter of magnetic pickups and strings, a hollow body guitar would sound just like a solid body guitar, but that doesn’t happen, they sound different. That’s resonance affecting how the strings vibrate.

And different woods resonate in different ways, and therefore affect how the wood filters the tone of the string.

But you have to throw in the microphonic pickup factor. Not only do guitar pickups have feedback due to resonances from loud amps and so on (this is why they’re potted, to prevent this microphonic vibration), they also pick up some of the vibrations directly from the guitar.

We all know from experience that different guitars with identical pickups and hardware, but different woods or construction sound different. Hell different guitars of the same model, same woods, sound different.

This is empirical stuff. Play a bunch of guitars, it’s easy to hear, right?

Bang on a piece of mahogany, you hear a very clear note. Bang on a piece of maple, you hear a different note. They’re resonating differently. The neck holds the fretboard, nut, frets, etc. Make it resonate differently, and that vibration is going to affect the strings it touches, and their vibration. Because it has to. There’s no getting around it.

Even with acoustics, I can tell you that my maple bodied Tonare Grand with maple neck, Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard, sounds very different from the Cocobolo Tonare Grand with Adirondack spruce top and ebony fretboard that preceded it.

Very different, yet in the same family. Like two sisters with different voices, and there’s no mistaking one for the other.

They sound different because the woods have different resonances, etc., and as a result they HAVE to sound different, there’s no getting around it!

Every luthier knows this, and most guitar players know it, but you still see folks sayin’ “Nope. Impossible.”

I don’t know how the folks in denial of what their own hands and ears are telling them can ignore that and obey their brain when it tells them them they’re imagining things, but apparently that’s a thing!

Well put! When listening to Ted Nugent songs, I can hear the difference and tell when he is playing one of his big hollow body Byrdland guitars or not. (He switches between the Byrdland, a PRS and a Les Paul all the time.) Those Byrdland guitars produce a very distinctive quackiness from the very large solid piece of carved Spruce used to make the tops on those guitars.

 

[Rusty Chops]

... large solid piece of carved Birch used to make the tops on those guitars.

Spruce.

 

[merciful-evans]

I always thought that anything that absorbs frequencies, instead of reflecting and sustaining them all, will have an effect on tone.

An L-5 certainly will absorb more frequencies than a Les Paul.

Sure, I can roll off a tone pot on the LP and get an acceptable so-called jazz tone, but the sustain, feel, and whole experience can be way different if I’m in an intimate setting: it’s harder to dial in.

On the other hand, if I’m using a lot of gain and flapping my pant legs with a 4X12 cabinet, I’m going to have problems with an L-5, and the tone nuances will likely be missed.

I agree. Just as Paul's choice of a robust hardtail bridge is to maximize sustain (Pauls Guitar), a light wooden bridge such as found on a trad archtop will have softer, warmer tones due, in part, to its absorbing qualities. One is not not better than the other. It depends entirely of what kind of timbre you are after.

 

[elvis]

If the wood doesn't matter, why is there a general agreement that the SC 594 has a bit more grunt than the standard 594?

My two SCs have this as well relative to all my other guitars, regardless of pickups.

 

[HANGAR18]

Spruce.

You're right. I always get Spruce and Birch mixed up. No idea why.