Myths

[Simon Says]

This is something that stuck in my head, and not letting go. I have played the guitar since the early 90s, and since then, I have come across many guitar-related myths.

Fast forward to 2020, I have bought my first brand new tube amp. I had a lot of second-hand tube amps, but this one was fresh from the factory. It took me a long time to narrow down my needs; I kept coming back to Andertons at least twice, testing the Fillmore 50 before I went ahead. At this time, they sold the one they had in stock, so I ordered a head + 2x12 and had it shipped directly from the Mesa factory to my doorstep.

I plugged it in, and it was nothing like the amp I had played at the store. It was a bit buzzy; I couldn't EQ it out, and it was thinner sounding than the 1x12 combo they had at the store. I instantly blamed the speakers; they never moved the air, and I decided to break them in. I was leaving the amp on, blasting some EVH through the guitar input, and leaving the cab face down on a sofa pillow. It took me a couple of weeks before the amp started talking how I liked it; the EQ was usable in every setting, and I could finally add some treble without the ear-bleed. I was happy; I have moved on.

A year later, I decided to build a tower with an additional 2x12 Fillmore cab. There was only one in stock in the whole of England. Word on the street was that the Boogie wouldn't be shipping more gear to the UK for at least a year, and I wasted no time to buy that 2x12. It was the floor model; they couldn't find the box or the cover, but I had a nice discount, and it was shipped to me the next working day. I was expecting the same thing - breaking the speakers in to match the other cab I already had, but no. It sounded exactly the same as the old cab. I thought it was because it was used in the shop, served as a demo cab, and had a lot of mileage on it. I was happy and moved on again.

Fast forward three months ago, I decided I needed to change the power valves in my amp. I got lazy with it; I was way overdue with the service, and I started being paranoid it would take the fuse along with the power transformer in case of a PA valve failure. I have a small stock of Mesa STR-440; I bought ten sets from everywhere I could locate them when I learned the Chinese factory making them went down in flames. The procedure is straightforward: pull the valves out, put a new set in, and you're done. Boogies don't need to be rebiased.

I was shocked! The shrill was back; I can't EQ the things out, exactly the same tone as when I got the amp back in 2020. At first, I thought I could move the settings accidentally, but they are marked on the panel, still in exactly the same spot as they used to be. My tone was back when I put the old valves back in. They are still there to this day.

I'm not claiming to have ultra hearing, but I know my amp well. Could the famous speaker's break-in period be simply mistaken for the valve's ageing?

It's not a question; in my case, the valve break-in period influenced the tone more than the speaker's break-in. I'm not trying to say the speakers sound the same since day one, but the valve swap literally took me back three years to the place where I was fighting the amp instead of simply enjoying it.

What other guitar myths do you believe in or were able to debunk?

 

[Juan Luis Vidal]

"A gazillion dollar guitar will make you a better player."

Like you have never been able to properly play sweep picking and that is gonna change with your million dollar axe.

To be honest I can mostly play the same stuff with my old crappy Kramer Striker from the 80s that I play with my brand new Tremonti core (although the PRS looks, sounds and and plays much better).
IMHO, a good setup is far more important, unless we are talking about a toy-really-bad guitar.

 

[Simon Says]

IMHO, a good setup is far more important, unless we are talking about a toy-really-bad guitar.

Interesting toping you have just brought in. I have dropped my Custom 24 to a tech last year. I do a lot of servicing on my own; I'm good with electronics, and I can do a full setup, relief, string radius following fretboard curvature, intonation and all, but I can't do the fret dress (yet), I have no tools, nor the experience. I dropped my guitar off to a tech and had it back with a "free, optimal setup for the guitar". I don't believe there is such a thing. To be fair, the setup should serve the player, not the instrument. I had to dedicate my afternoon to returning it to where I liked it.

Regarding more expensive being better, I have a story too. That was years ago, the same situation as above, although I was doing the job for a customer. Back in my old country, I was working on festivals as a tech assistant; I was also fixing effect pedals to pay for my uni. I had this job dropped on my desk, cheap VOX wah-wah, which stopped working; it was acting as a volume pedal. Two possibilities in this case. The non-polar 4.7uF cap is faulty, or the inductor is an open coil. I have bought a Whipple inductor; they were the **** back then, high-quality inductors based on a HALO spec, tight tolerance, and proper inductance/capacitance ratio. I opened the Wah, and it was the cap. It's a 10p service job, but I swapped the inductor for the "better" one while at it. The wah-wah owner hated it; his tone was gone, and I ended up putting the old, off-spec inductor back in.

 

[Greywolf]

I think instruments and amps do sound better with a bit of break in . Sometimes a refresh can open up a whole new world. When I switch to Gold Lion KT77's in my Blue Sierra there was a big change , much crisper .

 

[Simon Says]

I think instruments and amps do sound better with a bit of break in . Sometimes a refresh can open up a whole new world. When I switch to Gold Lion KT77's in my Blue Sierra there was a big change , much crisper .

Did the crisp ease off over time? To be fair, the new set with my Synergy Herbert preamp sounded much better; skull crashing lows, very chuggah, chuggah; with old valves, it's just okay.

 

[Greywolf]

It's been a few months and they are still much more Fender clean than Marshall mush

 

[Bogner]

Tone Is In The Fingers. I Have All My Fingers And No Tone...That Is Why Have All This Gear. (Kidding)

In All Seriousness... This Is A Great Topic And As I Ponder It Further I Am Reminded Of Several Things. The First Thing That Came To Mind Was "Tone Or Sound" And How We Approach It. Pedals Vs. And EQ. Pickups Vs. Cables. Different Amp VS. Cabinets And Speakers. In Each Of My Examples We Typically Gravitate To The First Thing I Listed Rather Than The Second Thing I Listed And At Times They Are Just As Impacting Sonically. Maybe Even More So In Certain Instances. I Learned There Are A Lot Of Ways To Do Things Rather Than "You Gotta Do This" To Get The End Result.

 

[Simon Says]

Tone Is In The Fingers. I Have All My Fingers And No Tone...That Is Why Have All This Gear. (Kidding)

In All Seriousness... This Is A Great Topic And As I Ponder It Further I Am Reminded Of Several Things. The First Thing That Came To Mind Was "Tone Or Sound" And How We Approach It. Pedals Vs. And EQ. Pickups Vs. Cables. Different Amp VS. Cabinets And Speakers. In Each Of My Examples We Typically Gravitate To The First Thing I Listed Rather Than The Second Thing I Listed And At Times They Are Just As Impacting Sonically. Maybe Even More So In Certain Instances.

I agree to a point. A friend of mine has a clean amp platform and a selection of overdrives. When he plays his rig, he sounds heavenly. When I'm trying, I sound like an ass. He has a lighter pick attack than mine; I have naturally bright fingers, so he sounds mushy when he plays my rig.

I Learned There Are A Lot Of Ways To Do Things Rather Than "You Gotta Do This" To Get The End Result.

I couldn't agree more. I have a couple of examples. I play rather heavy music, but my amp is hardly high gain. I learned a while ago that a boosted, low-gain amp will take me there quicker and give me much more clarity. This is a partial reason why I pick so hard. I would rather work harder to archive my overdrive if I can drop the amount of drive when I need to with a lighter picking.
Another example is the use of compressors. It makes no sense to me to use them before the preamp; it's trashing everything I'm trying to get from an amp I mentioned above. Having one in the loop does the job just fine, although I use them more as a limiter or mastering tool than a compressor. They help me to get the PA sag on low volumes and to keep boosters-created levels under control. I don't see a lot of guitarists doing that. As a rule of thumb, compressors should go first in the effects chain, apparently.

 

[ViperDoc]

This is something that stuck in my head, and not letting go. I have played the guitar since the early 90s, and since then, I have come across many guitar-related myths.

Fast forward to 2020, I have bought my first brand new tube amp. I had a lot of second-hand tube amps, but this one was fresh from the factory. It took me a long time to narrow down my needs; I kept coming back to Andertons at least twice, testing the Fillmore 50 before I went ahead. At this time, they sold the one they had in stock, so I ordered a head + 2x12 and had it shipped directly from the Mesa factory to my doorstep.

I plugged it in, and it was nothing like the amp I had played at the store. It was a bit buzzy; I couldn't EQ it out, and it was thinner sounding than the 1x12 combo they had at the store. I instantly blamed the speakers; they never moved the air, and I decided to break them in. I was leaving the amp on, blasting some EVH through the guitar input, and leaving the cab face down on a sofa pillow. It took me a couple of weeks before the amp started talking how I liked it; the EQ was usable in every setting, and I could finally add some treble without the ear-bleed. I was happy; I have moved on.

A year later, I decided to build a tower with an additional 2x12 Fillmore cab. There was only one in stock in the whole of England. Word on the street was that the Boogie wouldn't be shipping more gear to the UK for at least a year, and I wasted no time to buy that 2x12. It was the floor model; they couldn't find the box or the cover, but I had a nice discount, and it was shipped to me the next working day. I was expecting the same thing - breaking the speakers in to match the other cab I already had, but no. It sounded exactly the same as the old cab. I thought it was because it was used in the shop, served as a demo cab, and had a lot of mileage on it. I was happy and moved on again.

Fast forward three months ago, I decided I needed to change the power valves in my amp. I got lazy with it; I was way overdue with the service, and I started being paranoid it would take the fuse along with the power transformer in case of a PA valve failure. I have a small stock of Mesa STR-440; I bought ten sets from everywhere I could locate them when I learned the Chinese factory making them went down in flames. The procedure is straightforward: pull the valves out, put a new set in, and you're done. Boogies don't need to be rebiased.

I was shocked! The shrill was back; I can't EQ the things out, exactly the same tone as when I got the amp back in 2020. At first, I thought I could move the settings accidentally, but they are marked on the panel, still in exactly the same spot as they used to be. My tone was back when I put the old valves back in. They are still there to this day.

I'm not claiming to have ultra hearing, but I know my amp well. Could the famous speaker's break-in period be simply mistaken for the valve's ageing?

It's not a question; in my case, the valve break-in period influenced the tone more than the speaker's break-in. I'm not trying to say the speakers sound the same since day one, but the valve swap literally took me back three years to the place where I was fighting the amp instead of simply enjoying it.

What other guitar myths do you believe in or were able to debunk?

Great story. Unless you have a microphonic (tap the tube lightly with a chopstick and listen for noises) or red-plating tube (which would likely indicate something wrong with your circuit or power supply), power tubes that sound different may just need to be re-biased. The only problem with the Fillmore series is it says it has "maintenance free fixed bias", which means it could be cathode biased. The only way to change cathode bias is to change the components to ground on the power tube cathodes. Or it could have a bias pot inside the chassis and a tech can set it for you. I can't find a schematic for the Fillmore, otherwise I'd say more. But since the original tubes are well adapted to your amp, you've said all that is needed. Keep those babies for as long as you can. Enjoy.

 

[Simon Says]

Great story. Unless you have a microphonic (tap the tube lightly with a chopstick and listen for noises) or red-plating tube (which would likely indicate something wrong with your circuit or power supply), power tubes that sound different may just need to be re-biased. The only problem with the Fillmore series is it says it has "maintenance free fixed bias", which means it could be cathode biased. The only way to change cathode bias is to change the components to ground on the power tube cathodes. Or it could have a bias pot inside the chassis and a tech can set it for you. I can't find a schematic for the Fillmore, otherwise I'd say more. But since the original tubes are well adapted to your amp, you've said all that is needed. Keep those babies for as long as you can. Enjoy.

I was thinking of putting these valves aside for a special occasion. I know how absurd that sounds; after all, it's not a unique tube, although STR440 are now really hard to get. I still have a few sets, and I'm considering just putting the new set in and leaving my amp on standby for a couple of hours now and then, burning these suckers in good.

Fillmore 50 is not cathode-based; it's push-pull. The bias is set fixed with a resistor biased to (in the case of my amp) 55% plate dissipation at idle - the main reason I simulate the amp sag with a limiter is that these won't sag otherwise. I have a block diagram from Boogie customer service, but they refused to issue a schematic as long as the amp is in production. Being an electronic geek, I wondered how the amp is constructed. From the block diagram alone, I have learned a thing or two (FX loop placed after the master volume, FX loop buffered with high voltage MOSFET, but return is valve), but not enough to get an imagination of what the amp is based on.

 

[ViperDoc]

I was thinking of putting these valves aside for a special occasion. I know how absurd that sounds; after all, it's not a unique tube, although STR440 are now really hard to get. I still have a few sets, and I'm considering just putting the new set in and leaving my amp on standby for a couple of hours now and then, burning these suckers in good.

Fillmore 50 is not cathode-based; it's push-pull. The bias is set fixed with a resistor biased to (in the case of my amp) 55% plate dissipation at idle - the main reason I simulate the amp sag with a limiter is that these won't sag otherwise. I have a block diagram from Boogie customer service, but they refused to issue a schematic as long as the amp is in production. Being an electronic geek, I wondered how the amp is constructed. From the block diagram alone, I have learned a thing or two (FX loop placed after the master volume, FX loop buffered with high voltage MOSFET, but return is valve), but not enough to get an imagination of what the amp is based on.

The alternative to cathode bias is “fixed bias”, which is what you’re describing. “Push pull” refers to the output section design that passes an AC signal from two halves of a “phase inverter tube” to a pair of output tubes that each operate during one half of the AC cycle. The alternative to push pull is “single ended” design that sends the output to a single tube that’s “always on”. SE amps generate enormous heat (so the output transformer iron has to be spaced and is quite large for heat dissipation), generate no output phase cancellation, and are therefore more harmonically rich.

I watched an interview with Steve Fryette where he claimed when rock stars would send their amps in for a retube, he would usually find the original tubes to be perfectly fine, would wipe them down and reinstall the same tubes and send it back out, to which he would usually hear that the amps sounded great again. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

 

[László]

This is something that stuck in my head, and not letting go. I have played the guitar since the early 90s, and since then, I have come across many guitar-related myths.

Fast forward to 2020, I have bought my first brand new tube amp. I had a lot of second-hand tube amps, but this one was fresh from the factory. It took me a long time to narrow down my needs; I kept coming back to Andertons at least twice, testing the Fillmore 50 before I went ahead. At this time, they sold the one they had in stock, so I ordered a head + 2x12 and had it shipped directly from the Mesa factory to my doorstep.

I plugged it in, and it was nothing like the amp I had played at the store. It was a bit buzzy; I couldn't EQ it out, and it was thinner sounding than the 1x12 combo they had at the store. I instantly blamed the speakers; they never moved the air, and I decided to break them in. I was leaving the amp on, blasting some EVH through the guitar input, and leaving the cab face down on a sofa pillow. It took me a couple of weeks before the amp started talking how I liked it; the EQ was usable in every setting, and I could finally add some treble without the ear-bleed. I was happy; I have moved on.

A year later, I decided to build a tower with an additional 2x12 Fillmore cab. There was only one in stock in the whole of England. Word on the street was that the Boogie wouldn't be shipping more gear to the UK for at least a year, and I wasted no time to buy that 2x12. It was the floor model; they couldn't find the box or the cover, but I had a nice discount, and it was shipped to me the next working day. I was expecting the same thing - breaking the speakers in to match the other cab I already had, but no. It sounded exactly the same as the old cab. I thought it was because it was used in the shop, served as a demo cab, and had a lot of mileage on it. I was happy and moved on again.

Fast forward three months ago, I decided I needed to change the power valves in my amp. I got lazy with it; I was way overdue with the service, and I started being paranoid it would take the fuse along with the power transformer in case of a PA valve failure. I have a small stock of Mesa STR-440; I bought ten sets from everywhere I could locate them when I learned the Chinese factory making them went down in flames. The procedure is straightforward: pull the valves out, put a new set in, and you're done. Boogies don't need to be rebiased.

I was shocked! The shrill was back; I can't EQ the things out, exactly the same tone as when I got the amp back in 2020. At first, I thought I could move the settings accidentally, but they are marked on the panel, still in exactly the same spot as they used to be. My tone was back when I put the old valves back in. They are still there to this day.

I'm not claiming to have ultra hearing, but I know my amp well. Could the famous speaker's break-in period be simply mistaken for the valve's ageing?

It's not a question; in my case, the valve break-in period influenced the tone more than the speaker's break-in. I'm not trying to say the speakers sound the same since day one, but the valve swap literally took me back three years to the place where I was fighting the amp instead of simply enjoying it.

What other guitar myths do you believe in or were able to debunk?

What you're probably hearing is that shrillness and ringing I object to in modern Chinese tubes. They probably do sound better with some wear.

As I understand it, Fillmore 50s are shipping now with Mesa branded JJs (Slovakian tubes from the old Tesla machinery) that are (IMHO) better tubes.

I loaded my Fillmore 50 with NOS GE and RCA. I'm not screwing around with the nasty stuff that comes out of way too many modern tubes.

 

[László]

Here's the thing about myths and legends: Often there's a grain of truth that gets exaggerated over time.

As often happens, the people who can hear subtle differences can over-hype that grain of truth, and those who can't, or don't know what to listen for, will claim it's all hype.

Of course, sometimes it IS myth. And sometimes it isn't.

Do speakers break in? Sure, a little. Do other components break in? Sure, a little. Does Laz know what he's talking about? Occasionally.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I’ve been known to leave my amp on stand-by for a couple of days after a tube change, just by accident.

I can’t say that it makes a difference to the tones, but what I can tell you is that it is not a Myth.

 

[Simon Says]

The alternative to cathode bias is “fixed bias”, which is what you’re describing. “Push pull” refers to the output section design that passes an AC signal from two halves of a “phase inverter tube” to a pair of output tubes that each operate during one half of the AC cycle. The alternative to push pull is “single ended” design that sends the output to a single tube that’s “always on”. SE amps generate enormous heat (so the output transformer iron has to be spaced and is quite large for heat dissipation), generate no output phase cancellation, and are therefore more harmonically rich.

I watched an interview with Steve Fryette where he claimed when rock stars would send their amps in for a retube, he would usually find the original tubes to be perfectly fine, would wipe them down and reinstall the same tubes and send it back out, to which he would usually hear that the amps sounded great again. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

It's not cathode-biased. Mesa's non-user regulated bias being cathode bias is yet another myth.

What you're probably hearing is that shrillness and ringing I object to in modern Chinese tubes. They probably do sound better with some wear.

As I understand it, Fillmore 50s are shipping now with Mesa branded JJs (Slovakian tubes from the old Tesla machinery) that are (IMHO) better tubes.

I loaded my Fillmore 50 with NOS GE and RCA. I'm not screwing around with the nasty stuff that comes out of way too many modern tubes.

It could be that, but I won't offload £400 for a set of NOS to find out. Maybe if I relied on PA overdrive more, maybe with a hotter bias point (again, my Boogie is biased to 55% of plate dissipation at the factory), I would focus more on that.

I’ve been known to leave my amp on stand-by for a couple of days after a tube change, just by accident.

I can’t say that it makes a difference to the tones, but what I can tell you is that it is not a Myth.

See, I actually re-valved the amp to the 6L6 set I was so badly reacting to, and I no longer hear what I did on that unfortunate day. The tone was on par with what I could hear before the change, only slightly louder, and the bass content stronger. More presence but nothing unpleasant. The only thing that changed before now and then is the second cab is now equipped with stock MC90 speakers (I had 90s Mesa OEM V30 for a year or so). I guess it's a mix of valves AND the speakers, as I just don't believe things got changed due to the shelf life.

 

[László]

It could be that, but I won't offload £400 for a set of NOS to find out.

It's true, NOS tubes cost - I have NOS in my other three amps, too!

But here's the thing:

On balance, NOS tubes are a bargain because (a) I'm significantly more satisfied with my tone; and as a result, (b) I'm not constantly buying and selling amps as I once did.

And it's not just the amps! Once the amp sounds right, everything else in the signal chain sounds better going through it. I haven't sold an effect pedal in at least 6-7 years. Haven't bought one in 4 years.

The last amp I sold was 9 years ago. Haven't bought an amp in 4 years. It's not because of budget, or because my philosophy is different, I'm just happier with my sound. There's been no reason to go on the tone chase for something 'similar but better'; I only add to the arsenal for more options.

Also I haven't had to change a single NOS tube, and quite a few have been here 9 years (in the HXDA and DG30).

"You're not trying to convince anyone to think as you think, and go NOS, are you Laz?"

"No. I'm just practicing my spiel for my wife."

"It's good to have a well-rehearsed apologia. Then you don't have to come up with something lame when you're asked what came in the mail."

 

[Simon Says]

It's true, NOS tubes cost - I have NOS in my other three amps, too!

But here's the thing:

On balance, NOS tubes are a bargain because (a) I'm significantly more satisfied with my tone; and as a result, (b) I'm not constantly buying and selling amps as I once did.

And it's not just the amps! Once the amp sounds right, everything else in the signal chain sounds better going through it. I haven't sold an effect pedal in at least 6-7 years. Haven't bought one in 4 years.

The last amp I sold was 9 years ago. Haven't bought an amp in 4 years. It's not because of budget, or because my philosophy is different, I'm just happier with my sound. There's been no reason to go on the tone chase for something 'similar but better'; I only add to the arsenal for more options.

Also I haven't had to change a single NOS tube, and quite a few have been here 9 years (in the HXDA and DG30).

"You're not trying to convince anyone to think as you think, and go NOS, are you Laz?"

"No. I'm just practicing my spiel for my wife."

If I spend that much on valves, it will be entirely your fault!

 

[László]

If I spend that much on valves, it will be entirely your fault!

OK, but here's a disclaimer:

By reading this disclaimer you acknowledge that Laz has admitted he's completely full of crap.

 

[Simon Says]

OK, but here's a disclaimer:

By reading this disclaimer you acknowledge that Laz has admitted he's completely full of crap.

Do you know why I bought so many STR440s in a panic when I found out the Shuguang vacuum tube factory went on fire? I feared the tone I got from my amp would disappear if I swapped the supplier. Now, I'm thinking; blowing £400 for a pair of RCAs with no guarantee I will be able to sustain the tone for long without selling my ass on a bus station. It's just a bit concerning scenario. I have nine more sets of new STR440 and two lightly used ones. With my lifestyle, they should last longer than I will.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

If I spend that much on valves, it will be entirely your fault!

And Mrs Says will cut my b@ll$ off.