Guitar teacher questions

[DHW]

Hey guys,


My 10 year old daughter and I have been taking lessons for a little over 18 months. This is her first experience with music lessons and my second time trying with the guitar. My first lessons were 14-15 years ago and lasted about a month, that guy was HORRIBLE! He tuned my guitar with his back turned towards me without showing me anything about doing it. He opened a book and tried to teach me layla and jeremy. Keep in mind, I had owned my first guitar for about 2 days at this point. Zero theory, zero anything but mimic what he did. I didn't like that.


Fast forward to today. We have been taking lessons with one person. He's an older gentleman that claims the following "As one of the foremost solo guitarists in the country, Scott's virtuosity and versatility are without equal. Having mastered twelve styles on guitar, Scott's vast repertoire span's centuries of timeless classics to the present." He definitely knows how to play and has played since he was a kid apparently. He doesn't have a formal music education though(if that matters). Here is some stuff he pushes hard and some observations. His music knowledge pretty much stops in the 70's. I don't think he's ever listed to anything later at any length. He can transpose a song pretty good but has little concept of bands with multiple guitars beyond an acoustic and an electric. This obviously runs into issues with much of the modern stuff when he tries to blend the various guitar parts together in ways that are really over the top. He does not have an amp for lessons. Well he did but not sure what happened to it. It was an ancient epi solid state with a 6" speaker that sounded like a headphone in a pop can. All lessons are done acoustically which I find difficult. He is VERY VERY hung up on alternate picking. Every single offbeat is an up stroke even when it doesn't feel natural to do so. This has caused problems picking up spead in rock and hard rock music and is horrible for punk/grunge. Obviously it is beneficial a lot of the time. He advocates playing with a closed hand floating(no anchoring). This would be bent at the middle knuckles with the tips curled under and the main knuckles flat. I find that this keeps the hand very far from the strings which really hurts accuracy. I also find that it builds tension in my hands and eventually shoulders and then it all just falls apart. He talks a lot during the lesson basically taking all groove out of the music telling us what is coming up instead of letting us read the music and just feel it. We are both finding this to make transitions very difficult. He teaches main riffs and intros almost exclusively. I have been working on crazy train and do not obey any repeats, no fill, no solos. He believes slash to be the worst guitarist he's every heard. He is uber religious, I'm pretty sure if I brought a Rob Zombie song to learn he would burst into flames. If you ask him he can play better than tommy emmanuel, slash, keith richards, or clapton(depending on the flavor we are talking about). I don't know if I am either not committing enough or if we need to find someone else. If we were to find someone else I don't even know where to begin. We are at the outside edge of the suburbs and most of the reviewed teachers are in the city(Minneapolis) and an hour+ drive to a lesson is not really an option.


Is he on the money for proper technique or is his playing very dated and skewed? What would you guys do?


My daughter simply adore's his wife and he is very sensitive about people not continuing with him. I have used youtube and specifically Marty Schwatz to learn some stuff. I like his style but would want some theory mixed in so we understand why we are doing what we are doing. This has kept me sane but my daughter really has aspirations to be a professional musician and I want to be absolutely sure I am doing the right thing for her.


I really need honest opinions here. This is a real touchy subject in our household and with him. He doesn't take being questioned very well I am finding. Ugh... this is frustrating to even type out... You guys, as a whole, are some of the most level headed musicians I have seen online and I trust the advice I get here.

 

[Knucklehead]

The most important thing is that you and your daughter have a positive experience with guitar playing, or you won't continue with it. Second, you need a teacher that will help you advance as a musician. It sounds from your post that lessons are getting to be stressful rather than enjoyable, so maybe a different teacher is in order. If he is forcing techniques that don't work for you, it's time to move on. Some techniques are important and beneficial, but everyone is different. If he insisted that you tape a pick to your elbow and strum like that, would you do it? You need to figure out what works for you.
I personally couldn't pick with a closed fist. I need to anchor my fingers as a reference point to find the proper strings. I also wouldn't worry about hurting his feelings if you find a different teacher, you need to do what's best for you and your daughter. Besides , it sounds like his ego needs to be taken down a few notches.

 

[alantig]

New teacher? ABSOLUTELY.

Just to expand on a few things Knucklehead said...there is no one "right" technique. For every guy who plays without anchoring his hand, you can find one who does. There are a million different ways to play the guitar, but only one way that is right, and that is whatever works for you. A good teacher will help you improve your technique, not tell you that you have to do it just like him. He should be helping you improve what you're doing, not necessarily reinventing it. There's a difference between correcting your mistakes and insisting that his way is the right way.

The biggest takeaway from your post is the frustration and aggravation this is apparently causing you and your family. That's a huge red flag. As KH said, enjoying the process is a huge part of it. If you come to dread every lesson, eventually that leads to dreading practicing, and eventually to dreading picking up the guitar. That's the last thing that should happen to you or your daughter.

Have you considered online lessons? There's truefire.com - a few of us have picked up instructional stuff from them, and they do one-on-one online lessons. It's not the same as having someone sitting in the room with you, but it's better than being molded into somebody else's idea of what you should be.

Also sending you a PM...

 

[alantig]

And let me echo KH's last two lines - the teacher's feelings and opinions about whether you should find a different teacher are the least important in this process. By far.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Find a new dude.

 

[DHW]

Now one thing I will say is that the lessons being scheduled and such does give both of us motivation to practice. I'll check out some of the online stuff.

If you were to seek out a teacher what would you look for? What would you demand? Both in education, ideas, ect?

 

[Mikegarveyblues]

Definitely find a new tutor. If you don't enjoy learning at his lessons you won't progress.

It does go both ways though. I teach.. Or I did for a bit, but moving house has meant diy is my new full time job.... Anyhow... I have had students who want miracles and very quickly give up when they realise how much work they need to put in. As a tutor you need to take huge steps back. It's easy to forget how you where when you started and you have to force yourself to be patient. You do also need to keep up with modern music even if it's not your bag. People want to learn their favourite songs and... If they're paying you then give them what they want. But you have to be honest with them.

Your tutor isn't necessarily a bad one, he's just not right for you. He does need to expand his range so to speak and be more open to what students want.

Each teacher will have views on what is right and wrong regarding technique but a good teacher will be open to trying different techniques that work better with different students. A good teacher needs to be a little fluid in their teaching. There's instances where there's no absolute right or wrongs and a good teacher will leave options open and see what works best with a given student.

Above all, a good,friendly and trusting relationship needs to be developed from the start. If you dread lessons then you must go to a new tutor.

 

[andy474x]

+1 for finding someone new. The music of the past is very important, but your daughter also won't make it very far if she hasn't learned anything past the 70's.

I also anchor my hand... I feel like asking your hand to be perfectly positioned and accurate without any reference point is just too much if you're talking about the coordination of everything from your shoulder, through your elbow, down to your wrist (plus the fact that your guitar may be moving independently of that whole system as well, which is an additional layer of complexity). The shoulder and elbow and associated muscles are made for "gross movements" (vs fine, accurate movements of the wrist and hand), so trying to make them keep your hand perfectly positioned to do its job may just be too much for some people, myself included.

Plenty of professional, and even virtuoso guitar players anchor, as well as a lot of other "unconventional" techniques. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about modern guitar - there is no one right way to do it. The mold has been twisted, warped, and broken countless ways!

 

[jfine]

You've got the wrong teacher. Teaching electric without an amp? Ridiculous! It sounds like he's a "my way or the highway" kind of guy. One thing I learned in over 25 years of teaching is that every student's different, and sometimes different approaches need to be taken. I did insist on getting all of my beginning students into basic notation reading, because my teacher didn't give me any of that, and to this day I'm not a very good sight-reader (although I can read well enough to teach it.) Once the student got past basic first-position reading, we'd branch out and start working on songs, and if they were applying themselves and practicing, I'd give them songs along with the basic reading, and I always stressed listening to what they were playing, as developing a good ear is crucial, I think more so than reading, although if you've got both you've got it all!
Teaching riffs is fine, but if a student got an intro riff down, we'd go on to the next section of the song, and the next, and so on--until the student could play the whole song from beginning to end. The world is full of people who can play the intro to "Stairway To Heaven", or "Smoke On The Water", or "Smells Like Teen Spirit", or "Enter Sandman"--but they can't play any of the rest of the song. I told my students all the time that when they audition for a band, they need to be able to play the whole song, not just the riff. A teacher who just teaches riffs is doing the students a great disservice. I always tried to teach them the skills needed to play in a band, or at least to entertain their friends.
As far as the picking goes, alternate picking is fine up to a point--but there are plenty of times, especially when crossing strings, that it's more efficient to pick two downstrokes in a row, or two upstrokes. Do what feels natural, and if it's not working, you and the teacher need to put your heads together and figure out what will work. One approach definitely doesn't fit everybody, although if you're specifically working on alternate picking, the downstroke-on-the-downbeat is a good place to start.

 

[Prs2studio]

Online lessons are by far the way to go.
Dave Weiner
Max Dible
Either of them would be the go to guys IMO

 

[DHW]

You've got the wrong teacher. Teaching electric without an amp? Ridiculous! It sounds like he's a "my way or the highway" kind of guy. One thing I learned in over 25 years of teaching is that every student's different, and sometimes different approaches need to be taken. I did insist on getting all of my beginning students into basic notation reading, because my teacher didn't give me any of that, and to this day I'm not a very good sight-reader (although I can read well enough to teach it.) Once the student got past basic first-position reading, we'd branch out and start working on songs, and if they were applying themselves and practicing, I'd give them songs along with the basic reading, and I always stressed listening to what they were playing, as developing a good ear is crucial, I think more so than reading, although if you've got both you've got it all!
Teaching riffs is fine, but if a student got an intro riff down, we'd go on to the next section of the song, and the next, and so on--until the student could play the whole song from beginning to end. The world is full of people who can play the intro to "Stairway To Heaven", or "Smoke On The Water", or "Smells Like Teen Spirit", or "Enter Sandman"--but they can't play any of the rest of the song. I told my students all the time that when they audition for a band, they need to be able to play the whole song, not just the riff. A teacher who just teaches riffs is doing the students a great disservice. I always tried to teach them the skills needed to play in a band, or at least to entertain their friends.
As far as the picking goes, alternate picking is fine up to a point--but there are plenty of times, especially when crossing strings, that it's more efficient to pick two downstrokes in a row, or two upstrokes. Do what feels natural, and if it's not working, you and the teacher need to put your heads together and figure out what will work. One approach definitely doesn't fit everybody, although if you're specifically working on alternate picking, the downstroke-on-the-downbeat is a good place to start.

Thank you! The amp stuff has been a sore spot. I don't practice much unplugged at home so when we would go to the lesson it was hard to get into the groove listening to string pings. It was easier when I would practice all week unplugged but then I look at my amp and cables and all that and feel like I was depriving myself, or I would plug in and the change in feel was so large it was hard to play it again.

The alternate picking, down on the down beat and up on the offbeat is exactly what he taught us and I have zero issue with that except for the examples you state. The problem really comes in with songs he's never heard of(something recorded after I was born) and he doesn't know the rhythm of it at all so strictly uses ups and down for time keeping purposes. I used to be able to read staff when I was in band in school but can't sight read it anymore. We can read tab and so far I can get the timing and rhythm from the staff. My daughter is progressing with the staff and is fine with tab. She will likely be playing bass in band starting next year in school so will be forced to learn to sight read staff so I haven't worried about it too much.

 

[Drew]

The whole down/up on the beat/offbeat is great as a beginning tool but if you get locked into that then is presents issues down the road when you have to unlearn it for more advanced stuff like quarter and eight note triplets combined with string skipping. Then you get into whats called economy picking and it throws the other stuff out the window. A good teacher is all about the best route that works for you, even if you aren't doing it the EXACT way he/she is.

 

[AP515]

Some of the best/most successful guitarists are self-taught with no instructor, ever. Who told them what they could and couldn't do? They just did what worked for them. That's good advice for us. The best reason to use a teacher at all is to keep us from learning mistakes, or to show us a more efficient way to practice. We are the ones who decide how we will play.

I teach guitar. I let the student tell me what they want to do and I simply correct simple errors so they don't get stuck. They can go as fast or as slow as they want. They choose the songs, they work on things that interest them. When they get to a place where they want to do a song that requires a technique that is harder, I tell them that if they want to do that song, they are going to need to work on this skill first, and we go off and develop the skill in order to play the song. They seem to be more motivated to work that way. I've got an 8 year old that plays "Sweet child O mine". Not perfect yet, but the fact that he still smiles when he comes in and wants me to hear what he practiced last week must mean something.

Music should come from deep inside you. If you aren't playing something that you feel, you aren't doing it right. If the music does move you, you aren't doing it wrong, no matter what picking technique you use.

 

[DHW]

Some of the best/most successful guitarists are self-taught with no instructor, ever. Who told them what they could and couldn't do? They just did what worked for them. That's good advice for us. The best reason to use a teacher at all is to keep us from learning mistakes, or to show us a more efficient way to practice. We are the ones who decide how we will play.

I teach guitar. I let the student tell me what they want to do and I simply correct simple errors so they don't get stuck. They can go as fast or as slow as they want. They choose the songs, they work on things that interest them. When they get to a place where they want to do a song that requires a technique that is harder, I tell them that if they want to do that song, they are going to need to work on this skill first, and we go off and develop the skill in order to play the song. They seem to be more motivated to work that way. I've got an 8 year old that plays "Sweet child O mine". Not perfect yet, but the fact that he still smiles when he comes in and wants me to hear what he practiced last week must mean something.

Music should come from deep inside you. If you aren't playing something that you feel, you aren't doing it right. If the music does move you, you aren't doing it wrong, no matter what picking technique you use.

Now that really hits home... He has prescribed learning that he does. Because it builds skills I can see the benefit but my 10 year old doesn't have a clue what rumble, knocking on heavens door, house of the rising sun, or wreck of the edmund fitzgerald is nor does she have any interest in them. Someday, hopefully she will loop back and learn more about older music like this but forcing it right now is really deflating to her. She is a huge fan of pop-country, country-rock, and pop-rock. She has expanded a bit and is enjoying things like green day and will even listen to rob zombie a bit. Surprisingly enough, 2 of her favorite songs to play are Iron Man(she has everything but the solo down), and Back in Black(main two riffs so far). When crazy train comes on the radio she wants it cranked(can't get her to attempt it yet). She's a strange kid... ADORES Taylor Swift and The Band Perry and such but will rock out to Ozzie and Zombie, doesn't make sense to me but if it fires her up then great.

For myself I was a teen in the 90's... If the instructor can't name a single band from that decade I am learning that is an issue for me. He literally didn't know who Nirvana was lol... Now that the weekend is over I am going to make some phone calls.

 

[veinbuster]

I agree with the general opinion: you have the wrong teacher.
The teacher has to work with you in a way that lets you progress while enjoying the instrument.
He should be helping you be able to play things you want to play.
I wouldn't care if he doesn't know a band or guitar player, as long as I could tell him a song I wanted to learn and he could help me get there.

 

[watelessness]

If the student has not learned, then has the teacher really taught?

from what i can tell, this teacher is not right for you.

imho, if you're doing electric lessons an amp is a necessity. How else would you hear the pick squeals?

 

[DHW]

If the student has not learned, then has the teacher really taught?

from what i can tell, this teacher is not right for you.

imho, if you're doing electric lessons an amp is a necessity. How else would you hear the pick squeals?

lol... when he did have the amp out he would not allow the gain to be turned up on it because he thought it would blow it... I didn't even know how to to a pick squeal until I found it on youtube after figuring out what it was called... This was yesterday.

 

[alantig]

lol... when he did have the amp out he would not allow the gain to be turned up on it because he thought it would blow it... I didn't even know how to to a pick squeal until I found it on youtube after figuring out what it was called... This was yesterday.

He had it backwards - it blows if you don't turn it up enough! :rock:

 

[IKnowALittle]

There are a lot of excellent DVD's that will teach you everything you need to know at a beginner level of playing the guitar and theory. Just search them out. Really isn't hard.
But, sometimes there is a "no whine" zone ... no matter the quality of the instruction, you still have to put in the work and have some feel for it.
Regardless of what anyone says or thinks, playing the guitar well is difficult and requires dedication and effort. Ain't gonna suck itself.

 

[alphasports]

When I first started something like 40 years ago I had no clue at all, I mean didn't even know how to read a tab, which string was 1 and which was 6, etc. With no internet it was very tough to get simple, straightforward answers without writing a letter to somebody or mail-ordering some book that usually compounded the problem anyway. I was lucky to find a pretty good (female) teacher who didn't have the ego that many male teachers seem to come with and she set me straight with the absolute fundamentals. I put in maybe a winter's worth of once a week lessons, practiced like crazy, and off I went. Once you start to be self-sufficient it really helps to find people better than you to play with as you will learn new tricks way faster (at the risk of frustrating the better player!)...anyway, worked for me.

I have never been convinced of the value of starting off by learning intro riffs to iconic songs...sure it might get your fingers used to a fretboard but IMO you're way better off learning scales, simple chord groups, and other fundamentals. Learning Smoke On The Water in your first lesson won't teach you sh1t.

Just my .02