Getting “The Tone” - ‘99 McCarty HBII

[Strat1117]

I’ve owned and loved my HBII for over 20 years. It’s drop dead gorgeous and plays like a dream. BUT, the more I hang around this insane asylum (and the more I ‘woodshed’, instead of playing in a band), the more I perseverate over subjective minutiae that never used to bother me, so here goes.

I recently treated myself to a Mesa Rectoverb 25 1x12 combo, because my old 2x12’s are just too big and heavy for me to lug around anymore (I’m about to turn 64). The Mesa amp is everything it’s cracked up to be, and I can easily dial in the creamy, liquid, saturated sound I want with either of my Gibsons - a ‘96 LPS with 490R/498T, and an ‘01 SG Special with P90’s (a truly badass guitar, btw, if I’m allowed to say that in this forum). However, for reasons I cannot comprehend, I am unable to get the Hollowbody II (OG ‘Archtop’ pickups) ‘there’. It always seems to want to lean more toward breakup and less toward saturation. I play mostly Dead, phish, Allman Brothers, etc., so I’m looking for that warm, smooth, searing Fillmore East sound, overdriven but not to the point of breakup - no heavy metal crunch going on here - and while I feel like this guitar should have it in spades, it just doesn’t. I’d consider a pickup change as a second to last resort (the last resort being to sell it and buy a figured ES339 semi-hollow), but maybe the gurus here have some other ideas.

If not, how difficult is it to change out the pickups on a Hollowbody? I can do it on a solid body, but the hollowbodies seem to have no points of access to the electronics - I wouldn’t know where to begin.

Your relevant thoughts and good advice would be most gratefully appreciated. I’m making myself NUTS obsessing over this.

Thanks.

✌

 

[DogPhishHead]

Those archtop pickups are low output. I had a set of archtop pickups in an older SE guitar, I found the readings I took several years ago (Neck is 6.38K and the Bridge 7.21K). Perhaps consider a boost pedal to give those pickups a "kick". I'm thinking an Xotic EP booster set around 9-10 o'clock might give the guitar a fatter tone into the amp. Or a klon type pedal with the gain set below 9 o'clock...the Wampler Tumnus has a nice bass thicken to it's tone.

 

[Strat1117]

Those archtop pickups are low output. I had a set of archtop pickups in an older SE guitar, I found the readings I took several years ago (Neck is 6.38K and the Bridge 7.21K). Perhaps consider a boost pedal to give those pickups a "kick". I'm thinking an Xotic EP booster set around 9-10 o'clock might give the guitar a fatter tone into the amp. Or a klon type pedal with the gain set below 9 o'clock...the Wampler Tumnus has a nice bass thicken to it's tone.

Thanks. I have a TS9 turbo somewhere, maybe that’ll do it.

 

[JasonE]

As stated above. Those are pretty low output pickups. Both of my HB PRS guitars have 57/08 pickups in them and I have no issues getting good OD tones with them. Changing pickups in these guitars is work. You have to pull everything through the bridge pickup hole.

As also stated above, a clean boost pedal before any drives or the amp could be a resolution.

 

[DogPhishHead]

Thanks. I have a TS9 turbo somewhere, maybe that’ll do it.

perhaps, but it will boost the mids and cut treble and bass...you'll get a creamier tone, but maybe not "fat" enough. Have fun, experimenting is free !!!

 

[dkilpatrick]

I have a newer 594 hollow body II with the 58/15LT pickups playing with a mesa amp and have no problem getting that jam band sound. That guitar almost oozes that sound.
I do run it through a compressor, OD, boost, and eq before the front of the amp though.

 

[Strat1117]

perhaps, but it will boost the mids and cut treble and bass...you'll get a creamier tone, but maybe not "fat" enough. Have fun, experimenting is free !!!

Precisely correct - although mine is a TS9DX, and the +, Hot and Turbo settings are a bit fatter than the TS9 setting, it’s still not the same as clean boost. Another friend suggested a Wampler compressor, but maybe these are just bandaids, and I should consider either a set of Duncans, or the PRS 57/15 LT? After all, I have a Hollowbody for it’s hollowbodiness - I want the tone to come from the guitar, not a stomp box (I’ve always been pretty stomp-box averse/challenged - I’ve only ever used a cry baby and the TS9DX, and a HOF mini reverb for a little touch of vibe on the Twin Amp which has no reverb of its own).

Anyone have thoughts between those two pickup sets, PRS 57/15 LT vs Duncans?
(My thought was pearly gates neck and sh-1 bridge - but how can you know before they’re installed in your own guitar plugged into your own amp?)

Thanks to all for your input.

✌

 

[DogPhishHead]

Precisely correct - although mine is a TS9DX, and the +, Hot and Turbo settings are a bit fatter than the TS9 setting, it’s still not the same as clean boost. Another friend suggested a Wampler compressor, but maybe these are just bandaids, and I should consider either a set of Duncans, or the PRS 57/15 LT? After all, I have a Hollowbody for it’s hollowbodiness - I want the tone to come from the guitar, not a stomp box (I’ve always been pretty stomp-box averse/challenged - I’ve only ever used a cry baby and the TS9DX, and a HOF mini reverb for a little touch of vibe on the Twin Amp which has no reverb of its own).

Anyone have thoughts between those two pickup sets, PRS 57/15 LT vs Duncans?
(My thought was pearly gates neck and sh-1 bridge - but how can you know before they’re installed in your own guitar plugged into your own amp?)

Thanks to all for your input.

✌

Hollowbody, Mesa and the YEM in your avatar sort of point to a pair of ‘59 Duncan’s. Want more push…Pearly Gates. For PRS pickups, the 57/08s are hot and will definitely drive the amp ( I have those in my 2009 McCarty.

 

[John F]

Those archtop pickups are low output. I had a set of archtop pickups in an older SE guitar, I found the readings I took several years ago (Neck is 6.38K and the Bridge 7.21K). Perhaps consider a boost pedal to give those pickups a "kick". I'm thinking an Xotic EP booster set around 9-10 o'clock might give the guitar a fatter tone into the amp. Or a klon type pedal with the gain set below 9 o'clock...the Wampler Tumnus has a nice bass thicken to it's tone.

The PRS Horsemeat pedal has more bass than my Klon KTR and set low gain may be the sound you are looking for, plenty of videos for that to listen to.

The pickups in a McCarty 594 Hollowbody II are 58/15 LT PAF style. Check out some videos on those too.

 

[Strat1117]

Hollowbody, Mesa and the YEM in your avatar sort of point to a pair of ‘59 Duncan’s. Want more push…Pearly Gates. For PRS pickups, the 57/08s are hot and will definitely drive the amp ( I have those in my 2009 McCarty.

Thanks, @DogPhishHead, or should I just call you Harpua? I’m also looking at adding a Ross compressor (and maybe a Morning Glory instead of a second TS9, because it’ll supposedly do clean boost that the TS9 won’t) so, yeah, you get me.

Still, the hotter Gibson pickups do it without all the extra boxes, so maybe it’s time to have a talk with Uncle Seymour….

✌

 

[DaveDaveDave]

Thanks, @DogPhishHead, or should I just call you Harpua? I’m also looking at adding a Ross compressor (and maybe a Morning Glory instead of a second TS9, because it’ll supposedly do clean boost that the TS9 won’t) so, yeah, you get me.

Still, the hotter Gibson pickups do it without all the extra boxes, so maybe it’s time to have a talk with Uncle Seymour….

✌

I'd also think the TS-9DX will only get you part of the way there, with too much bass cut/mid boost.

The Keeley Tone Workstation is a real swiss-army knife pedal. I keep it as a header on my pedal board, to deal with outlier guitars that need a little help, like in your situation. But it sounds like you *really* know what you're looking for, so I'd do the pickup swaps.

 

[Lewguitar]

Thanks, @DogPhishHead, or should I just call you Harpua? I’m also looking at adding a Ross compressor (and maybe a Morning Glory instead of a second TS9, because it’ll supposedly do clean boost that the TS9 won’t) so, yeah, you get me.

Still, the hotter Gibson pickups do it without all the extra boxes, so maybe it’s time to have a talk with Uncle Seymour….

✌

He won't answer the phone because he no longer owns the company. His partner, Cathy Duncan, does. If Seymour's ever there anymore he's in the Custom Shop. Which is where you should direct your inquiry. Those pickups are special and not made on the line.

But I use Duncans in a couple of my guitars. I take them apart and make them as special as the Duncan Custom Shop pickups.

Or just get a set of PRS 57/08's. There's nothing better for the style of music I play.

But it's blues based...not metal or heavily distorted rock.

 

[Greywolf]

+1 on the 57/08's I'm VERY tempted to put one in the neck of my HBII . The LT's are pristine , and if you back off the tone, warm up nicely but they lack the fullness of the 57/08's . My non PRS choice would be a Benedetto PAF a wonderfully rich jazz focused model I've used for 25 years

Have a good Luthier do the swap , it's a pain to do if you haven't got the experience.

 

[gush]

I lusted for a prs HB for many years and snagged one a few years back.

I was really bummed as I was hoping for more wood in the tone......it just didn't have it.

It was a huge let down but I moved it. It had 5708s and I thought about swapping PUs but decided to let it go instead.

I'm told the spruce would have been a better choice.

 

[Strat1117]

+1 on the 57/08's I'm VERY tempted to put one in the neck of my HBII . The LT's are pristine , and if you back off the tone, warm up nicely but they lack the fullness of the 57/08's . My non PRS choice would be a Benedetto PAF a wonderfully rich jazz focused model I've used for 25 years

Have a good Luthier do the swap , it's a pain to do if you haven't got the experience.

Good advice. I have a good local guy all lined up, if I decide to do it.

I lusted for a prs HB for many years and snagged one a few years back.

I was really bummed as I was hoping for more wood in the tone......it just didn't have it.

It was a huge let down but I moved it. It had 5708s and I thought about swapping PUs but decided to let it go instead.

I'm told the spruce would have been a better choice.

If a guitar doesn’t speak to you, no reason to keep it. I may have overstated my case a bit in order to make my point clearer, but maybe that gave the wrong impression - I LOVE this guitar, but there is a particular tone I am chasing in my head for which it is being a little uncooperative.

One of my friends (whose sister and, now, nephew work in the PRS art (?) dept.) loaned me his compressor when I told him what I was thinking and, FOR THE MOMENT, that may have solved it - or at least pretty close, too soon to say for certain. But I’ve now added a new JHS Ross reissue between the Cry Baby and the TS9DX and I’m pretty happy overall for a total outlay of $175, taxed and delivered.

Of course that begs an obvious question - is it the tone of the guitar or the compressor that I’m enjoying? - but I’m going with the chain theory: all the links are important, even though some may be more key than others.

All that being said, I’m down the rabbit hole so WTF - anyone try a set of Gibson 490r/498t in a Hollowbody II? (And you can skip the sacrilege stuff, I’m a devout agnostic snd a practicing hedonist. I can get an OG (cotton insulation) set cheap, and I love them in my ‘96 LPS which, aside from most obvious, the hollow body, has quite a few similarities from a pickup’s POV - maple top, walnut sides, similar scale length, rosewood fretboard, mahogany neck and sides.) Wonderin’ aloud…

✌

 

[ViperDoc]

The access available in a hollow body guitar is through the open pickup routes themselves and the f-holes in the top. I think you would presolder the control harness and drop that in, then solder the pickups and harness feed to the switch, then install the pickups and take up slack with zip ties and an ingenious trimmer…and not f^ck anything up. That bridge ground wire would be a b1tch. I like the pedal idea, especially if you like the guitar.

One thing you said, “you like overdriven tone but not to the point of breakup”. The “point of breakup” is where the tone starts to clip and distort above the clean tone. Overdrive is a condition of constant clipping. Do you mean pre-crunch? That would usually involve going from asymmetrical to a more symmetrical clipping, which is harsher sounding.

 

[88prs]

Well.... in my biased opinion,,, PRS guitars will always sound PRS (Yeah!) and Gibson will be that sound from the old days because that is what was used. Not sure what else to say to help.

 

[Strat1117]

The access available in a hollow body guitar is through the open pickup routes themselves and the f-holes in the top. I think you would presolder the control harness and drop that in, then solder the pickups and harness feed to the switch, then install the pickups and take up slack with zip ties and an ingenious trimmer…and not f^ck anything up. That bridge ground wire would be a b1tch. I like the pedal idea, especially if you like the guitar.

One thing you said, “you like overdriven tone but not to the point of breakup”. The “point of breakup” is where the tone starts to clip and distort above the clean tone. Overdrive is a condition of constant clipping. Do you mean pre-crunch? That would usually involve going from asymmetrical to a more symmetrical clipping, which is harsher sounding.

My guitar tone vocabulary isn’t what it should be and therefore imprecise - for that I apologize. I mean Duane Allman, Trey Anastasio, Carlos Santana, Warren Haynes, Eric Clapton, etc., as opposed to Dimebag Darrell, Kirk Hammett, Daron Malakian, Zack Wylde….

Probably still not clear, as I’m exaggerating to illustrate the point, but I’m doing my best.

✌

 

[ViperDoc]

My vocabulary isn’t what it should be - for that I apologize. I mean Duane Allman, Trey Anastasio, Carlos Santana, Warren Haynes, etc., as opposed to Dimebag Darrell, Kirk Hammett, Daron Malakian, Zack Wylde…

Probably still not clear, as I’m exaggerating to illustrate the point, but I’m doing my best.

✌

LOVE IT, OMG. Your distinctions of sound couldn't be better! May I add Jimmy Herring vs. Cannibal Corpse to the list?

Smooth (slow, asymmetrical) vs. harsh (fast, symmetrical, square-wave) distortion. Nothing wrong with what you said, brother. Sorry if I come across as a troll, I hate that sh1t. Building a few amps has helped me better understand what the hell even happens between our hands and the speaker. Your question about whether to swap pickups or add a boost pedal is simply a selection point of change, both options being pre-input to your amplifier. A boost pedal or hotter pickup can essentially accomplish the same thing depending on what pedal you select and how it's set up, but you already know that. I like swapping pickups, it just seems like an a55 pain in a HB guitar, but I support any advancement in such skill and knowledge.

Go forth!

...and get a 594 if you don't have one. Best guitar on the planet.

 

[Greywolf]

A set of the Alnico II Seth Lovers will her right up too , have them in my Jazz archtop