Found my lost Oktava microphones...

[Lewguitar]

I have a matched pair of Octavas I bought prob about a 15 years ago. They sounded great as is.

What was the difference like after the mods?

I didn't try them before I bought them. they went straight to Michael Jolly. But those who have compared them befor and after say the treble opens up and becomes becomes smoother and the lower mids open up too. https://gearspace.com/board/so-much...523511-oktavamod-mk-012-really-good-km84.html

 

[Lewguitar]

So my latest plan is to get a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8. I can plug 4 mics into it and I think I can keep them on separate tracks on my computer for levels, eq, etc. The 18:8 has instrument inputs so no direct boxes are needed, lots of line inputs and outputs and 2 headphone outs each with their own own volume controls.

Going to pass on a mixer for now. If I hate not using one, a mixer will come later.

I'll probably try Reaper first.

I could use some booms and mic stands but I have enough to get started.

Anything else I'll need guys?

 

[László]

So my latest plan is to get a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8. I can plug 4 mics into it and I think I can keep them on separate tracks on my computer for levels, eq, etc. The 18:8 has instrument inputs so no direct boxes are needed, lots of line inputs and outputs and 2 headphone outs each with their own own volume controls.

Going to pass on a mixer for now. If I hate not using one, a mixer will come later.

I'll probably try Reaper first.

I could use some booms and mic stands but I have enough to get started.

Anything else I'll need guys?

Sounds like you're going to be very well-equipped.

 

[Lewguitar]

Sounds like you're going to be very well-equipped.

You really think so?

I did an inventory of my mics and I have:

2: Oktava condensers
2: Shure SM57
3: Shure SM58

I need a good vocal mic. Looking at the AKG P220 and Audio Technica AT2020.

Looking at some others too.

 

[László]

You really think so?

I did an inventory of my mics and I have:

2: Oktava condensers
2: Shure SM57
3: Shure SM58

I need a good vocal mic. Looking at the AKG P220 and Audio Technica AT2020.

Looking at some others too.

Yup, I think so.

You might know this already: Bono of U2 cuts all his vocals with an SM58. This I know for a fact, because my son started out in LA working as an assistant to Flood, who both recorded and produced U2.

Michael Jackson cut all his vocals with a Shure SM7, which is essentially an SM58 with a bass roll-off switch, and a somewhat different pattern; however they both use the exact same diaphragm cartridge.

They aren't alone.

If your voice benefits from a condenser - not all do, I need them on female vocals, but not all male vocals - every condenser works with a different type of voice, so try a few.

My son cut 30 Seconds to Mars' vocals with Jared Leto on several gold records. Jared can afford anything, but thought his voice sounded best with the inexpensive Rode NT-1. If you listen to the most recent albums, he was probably right - he sounds great on that mic.

One thing about the Rode mics, that are made in Australia with highly computerized processes: they're very, very good mics for the money. They kick the Chinese mics' backsides just about every time, and certain models are actually world class.

I have no experience with the AKG 220.

The Audio Technica 2020 isn't what many regard as a true large diaphragm condenser. It's an electret capsule (as opposed to the more standard true capacitor capsules that you find on the best mics). It's what they refer to as 'medium diaphragm'. If you're looking for that push and warmth that an LDC can deliver in the 'chest voice' area (this is because a larger diaphragm has a more resonant low end), you might want to look at something else. I've never loved the sound of electrets. But that's down to personal taste. They have a texture I don't care for, is the only way I can put it.

Yet if it suits your voice, whatever works...works.

You'll find that most vendors will not accept microphone returns, so it's best to try a few mics before dropping the coin, if possible.

Some Guitar Centers (like the one near me) have multiple mics set up on shelves that you can try with a pair of headphones, which is a pretty decent way to see if a vocal mic can come close to working for you. The best way is to try a few mics in someone's studio. Not all of us have that option.

If you like the AKG sound (such as the 414), the 214 is a stone-cold, straight-up bargain, but it's a bit more money than you might be looking to spend. It's simply a cardioid-only 414. So it has the sparkly high end and detail of the 414, a mic that's in just about every studio of quality on the planet. Most people record in cardioid mode and don't need mics with multiple patterns (I'm one of them).

Usually with microphones, you get what you pay for. However, there are some bargains out there if you're discerning and can try them with your voice.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

 

[Prina]

If you like the AKG sound (such as the 414), the 214 is a stone-cold, straight-up bargain

Just curious. How does the AKG sound compare with a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and acoustic guitar?

 

[Moondog Wily]

Sounds like a good plan on the 18i8 Lew (did not know you were willing to jump into that price range)! That should cover a LOT of ground for getting the sounds into your DAW. As for Reaper, I have heard nothing but good things about it, so that should be a good choice.

On the microphone topic, I can echo from experience, the praises László has showered on the Rode products (at least one of them). I own the Rode NTR ribbon mic and it is the best mic I have ever worked with for my vocals (have not tried to use it for anything else). Now that does not say all that much considering I have very limited experience compared to someone like László, but that mic is pure butter! I actually feel like I can sing at times when I am using it ;~)) It is pricey though at ~$800. I look forward to trying some of their other products down the rode (pun/spelling intended)!

My second favorite mic for vocals is the Shure SM7B. Half the price (~$399) of the Rode NTR and although it is a very close sibling of the SM58 as László mentioned, it just sounds better to me, a lot better. One thing that I have noticed is it does not have as high of a rejection of other signals as the SM58 does. Another drawback compared to the SM58 is the SM7B is a bit bulky and not made for "in hand" use, always on a stand or boom, so keep that in mind. Of course the SM58 is the industry standard for so many mic situations that having at least a couple of them in your mic locker is a good idea as I am sure you know!

As for other things you may need, cables, and some more cables, and some backup cables, but I am sure you have that covered. On mic stands, I have been a fan of the Gator ID series. They are again pricey ($130), but light, sturdy enough and very easy to collapse and adjust. When I notified them that one of the threads on a connector was stripped, they sent me a whole new stand. So on the one that had a problem, I just put a different connector on it and I now have two for the price of one ;~)) The other thing I would mention is sound deadening panels. I would imagine you are not working in a room that is optimized for sound, so what I have been using is collapsible room dividers and I cover them with sound deadening panels. A couple of those and you have a pop up sound booth more or less. It won't be like have a true booth, but it will be better than the room as is.

Congrats on getting through these rough waters, I am sure you will be happy and hit smooth sailing very soon!

 

[László]

Just curious. How does the AKG sound compare with a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and acoustic guitar?

They're different. Setting aside frequency response curves, for the moment (they don't tell the whole story)...

I have more experience with a 414 than a 214, so I'll refer to that, but they're very similar.

I'd use a 414 for different things than I'd use a TLM103 for. The mic has to be matched to the source. Sometimes there are surprises. Example: A pair of 414s is killer on drum overheads. I don't record drums at my home studio, but when a book a room for drums, that's generally my request. Really captures the 'woodiness' of a wood drum kit. I love that sound.

414s are great on the right acoustic guitar. Put one in front of, say, a J45 acoustic (a guitar that can use a bit of sparkle) and it's a very good match. Great mic for strummed acoustic.

414s work well with the right voice. They're great with reed instruments. They work well with standup bass. They're great on voice-over, too - with the right announcer.

In contrast, the TLM 103 subjectively has more low-mid push, and tends to be a little fatter sounding on vocals and instruments. There are voices and instruments this kind of thing mates up well with. There are sources it doesn't.

Everything depends on the source, the room, the context and what one aims for in a mix. I love the TLM with female vocal. It's easily the best match in my studio for my Tonare PS.

In general, I'm more of a Neumann person than an AKG (or anything else) person. So chances are, I'll reach for a Neumann first, and see how that works with the source.

Unlike some who look down their nose at the TLM 103 as a poor man's U87, I love the TLM 103, and think it's a great mic. I've had, and extensively used, the high end Neumanns, and like them all, but for me the 103 is right up there (if you don't need switchable polar patterns or tubes).

I wound up replacing my 414 with a JZ Black Hole. It works on similar sources and is more open-sounding, where a 414 can sometimes be a little boxy on some sources. Juris Zarens of JZ designed and built the original Blue mics in Latvia. I like his work, and have owned quite a few Blue mics. So that's another mic worth a look. I haven't used JZ's other mics, but they get good reviews.

 

[Lewguitar]

I just ordered the 18i8 and returned the Tascam. so it was a wash.

I'm counting on my Michael Jolly modified Oktava Mics to be my condenser mics.

Everybody seems to love them for acoustic guitar and for overheads.

But a really great Vocal Mic...I can see that making all the difference,

And some compression.

 

[László]

I own the Rode NTR ribbon mic and it is the best mic I have ever worked with for my vocals (have not tried to use it for anything else).

I have an NTR. I think it's the most versatile ribbon mic on the market. Works with the right voices, killer on a lot of things. Wonderful on a guitar cabinet. But I'm also a Royer fan for certain sources.

I've also owned a couple of Rode's tube mics. They work with a lot of things, too, and are great bargains.

 

[László]

But a really great Vocal Mic...I can see that making all the difference,

A really great vocal trumps the mic choice every damn time. That's what makes all the difference. It ain't about the mic.

The mic is so much less important than the delivery.

A great vocal can't be denied. A crap vocal with a great mic is still a crap vocal.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir...

 

[Prina]

Bono of U2 cuts all his vocals with an SM58. This I know for a fact, because my son started out in LA working as an assistant to Flood, who both recorded and produced U2.

Michael Jackson cut all his vocals with a Shure SM7, which is essentially an SM58 with a bass roll-off switch, and a somewhat different pattern; however they both use the exact same diaphragm cartridge.

A really great vocal trumps the mic choice every damn time. That's what makes all the difference. It ain't about the mic.

I'd give the SM58 a good tryout thru the 18i8 first to see if you're getting any significant noise, as well as how it sounds. At max gain the Scarlett mic pres can get a little noisy and the SM7 may be even lower output than the SM58.

Or just really belt out a great & LOUD vocal.

 

[Prina]

Here's an 'endorsement' for your upcoming setup, off the Genelec website: a Focusrite Scarlett going into a Lenovo laptop running Reaper.

Genelec has no financial link to any of those companies that I'm aware of so I'll guess that that's what a world class brand thinks is reasonable to use with their kit. Actually, Focusrite owns Adam which makes competing monitors.

 

[Lewguitar]

That one is not going to work as you will still need a interface (it does not have a USB interface built in). Here is a very similar model from Allen Heath that does have the USB interface (thereby eliminating the need for a separate interface):

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZEDi8--allen-and-heath-zedi-8-mixer-with-usb

https://www.amazon.com/Allen-Heath-ZEDi-8-Compact-Interface/dp/B01A2YQ9BM/ref=sr_1_30?hvadid=664696564958&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9032767&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3353648925734020615&hvtargid=kwd-435811145000&hydadcr=29210_14754855&keywords=audio+interface+mixer+usb&qid=1691437547&sr=8-30&th=1

This is from the same series by Allen and Heath (Zed series) but it is a ZEDi, with the i at the end indicating it is also an interface. It is about $70 more than the one you posted, but you can get it at Amazon for about $30 more than the one you posted (both links above).

Mackie has a 10 channel board that acts as an interface, and it is selling for about $269 (at Sweetwater https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProFX10v3--mackie-profx10v3-10-channel-mixer-with-effects and Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Mackie-ProFX-Mixer-Unpowered-10-channel/dp/B07X8Z1BRG ) . The reason I would choose this one ultimately is because it has 4 mic preamps. Considering what you are intending to record, you are going to want those extra mic preamps if I understand you signal chains correctly. The Allen & Heath and some of the other Mackie boards in the 4/6/8 channel range have only two mic preamps which puts you in a position of not having phantom power or mic preamps for many of you microphones.

I know 10 channels may seem like it is more than you need, but if we have dual mics on guitar, vocal, percussion, there is your 4 mic inputs already. Add in back up vocalists and you are already beyond the capabilities of even that 10 channel board (because of the limit on the number of mic preamps it has). Keep in mind that those 4 channels can also take guitar/keyboard/other inputs as well.

Hopefully others will chime in, but this the route I would go if I were you (Mackie ProFX10v3). Let me know if you want me to look any further for other options!

Good to know. I value the advice of everyone who has given advice on this project. I'd like to call again.

I can put the mixer on hold for now. Have to keep this thing within budget. But I do think I'd like a proper mixer eventually. It could be 8 channels for the stuff I'll be doing 90% of the time.

 

[Lewguitar]

Here's an 'endorsement' for your upcoming setup, off the Genelec website: a Focusrite Scarlett going into a Lenovo laptop running Reaper.

Genelec has no financial link to any of those companies that I'm aware of so I'll guess that that's what a world class brand thinks is reasonable to use with their kit. Actually, Focusrite owns Adam which makes competing monitors.

Clean and a view.... I like it!

 

[Lewguitar]

I'd give the SM58 a good tryout thru the 18i8 first to see if you're getting any significant noise, as well as how it sounds. At max gain the Scarlett mic pres can get a little noisy and the SM7 may be even lower output than the SM58.

Or just really belt out a great & LOUD vocal.

For vocals I'll use a SM58 for now. Especially while concentrating on getting set up.

Might look into something like a SM7 in the future.

A couple of the lady singers I know can really sing!

And I'd like to sound good too...should I choose to sing again. It's been a while.

I'll use the modded Octava condenser mics for acoustic guitar because I have them. They're supposed to be good mics over a drum set too.

I'm expecting them to be good, and in terms of an open smooth response, they're supposed to be comparable to some Neumanns after the mod. Comparable...not the same of course.

 

[Moondog Wily]

I'd like to call again.

Sure thing Lew, I am up and about so anytime! If I don't pick up, leave a message and I will ring you back!!

 

[László]

I'm expecting them to be good, and in terms of an open smooth response, they're supposed to be comparable to some Neumanns after the mod. Comparable...not the same of course.

Having had both, I'd say they're different but on a an equally level playing field. I could easily live with them as my only small diaphragm condenser mics.

Honestly, I could even live with the un-modded version.

I've probably mentioned this before, but if you want to get a wonderful dimensionality and tone in acoustic guitar recordings - certainly the best I've ever gotten - scroll down to the NOS setup described here and try it.

It's wonderful, and like the guitar sounds in the room. You may have to move your chair or the mic stand around a bit to find the sweet spot for your placement, but once the 'depth of field' is right and things pop into focus, it's stunning. By the way, DPA makes some of the finest small diaphragm condensers in the world, and they know their business. You can get a functional mic bar like the one used in the diagram for maybe ten bucks (or you can go sh!t-ass crazy like I did and spend $400 for one that's calibrated):

The Ultimate Guide: Stereo Recording Techniques & Setup

Learn all about mic spacing and angling in order to setup recording stereo techniques like AB, XY, near coincident, ORTF, DIN, NOS and more!

www.dpamicrophones.com

 

[László]

I should mention that using the NOS technique, you'll want to be 18-24 inches from the mic. Maybe more. This isn't a close-miking technique. It's a true stereo technique, and it beats the crap out of the BS setups you read about in guitar mags, or even some recording mags that use two mics but aren't even stereo recordings, they're blended mono.

NOS, X-Y and some of the others are classical recording miking techniques, and they're meant for realism.

I always laugh when I read about people placing mic booms over people's shoulders, and at the 12th fret to kill proximity effect, etc. Looks cool. But you can do so much better. Those things are compromises invented for live tracking with bands to prevent bleed. You probably won't need that, you'll probably be overdubbing.

 

[Lewguitar]

My Focusrite will show up today. Then I can get to work setting things up. I like that clean look in the above photos. No mixer cluttering things up in a small room.

With my lack of recent experience tho, I'm still second guessing myself on whether I should have gotten a mixer with a 4 X 4 USB interface, like this little Allen and Heath?

https://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/zed-10fx/

Would that have made the Focusrite unnecessary?