Ditch the 1/4"!

[Doug B]

 

[JasonE]

I have been using wireless units for years. I will only buy a Shure or Sennheiser wireless. I am a weekend warrior and have been for a long time. The better wireless units are worth every bit of what they cost. They work every time. I can't see these cheap units performing well at all in venues with lots of air traffic, especially cell phone and WIFI traffic. I hardly ever run into an issue with my wireless units in crowded air spaces. As a gigging musician, I would rather drop the cash for a unit that isn't going to be a problem. You won't know if these cheap units are a problem until they are and it is a pain to deal with at a gig.

After the time I spent reconfiguring my pedal board this last time, I very well may go back to just using a cable. I liked the sound and response I was getting from a cable better than the wireless.

 

[Doug B]

I have been using wireless units for years. I will only buy a Shure or Sennheiser wireless. I am a weekend warrior and have been for a long time. The better wireless units are worth every bit of what they cost. They work every time. I can't see these cheap units performing well at all in venues with lots of air traffic, especially cell phone and WIFI traffic. I hardly ever run into an issue with my wireless units in crowded air spaces. As a gigging musician, I would rather drop the cash for a unit that isn't going to be a problem. You won't know if these cheap units are a problem until they are and it is a pain to deal with at a gig.

After the time I spent reconfiguring my pedal board this last time, I very well may go back to just using a cable. I liked the sound and response I was getting from a cable better than the wireless.

True enough - but not everyone is a gigging musician, or one that makes enough money to justify the more expensive units. If you are making good money and can afford the better units, my hat's off to you. No argument here.

 

[László]

I enjoyed your video, Doug! Very concise, compact, nicely done!

My last wireless system was expensive, and sounded very good, but I do this stuff for a living so I didn't mind the expense.

However, I went back from wireless to using a cable. I like the idea of wireless, of course, but I like the sound using a good cable more. It's one of those personal preference things - we're all different.

I use a German Sommer cable that's got a vanishingly low 16 picofarad/foot capacitance (even a very good cable like Mogami is 48 pF per foot, Van Damme is 24 pF per foot. BTW, Van Damme make PRS' premium cables and they're excellent, lay flat and don't tangle).

Anyway, a good cable sounds great, and avoids an A/D conversion and D/A conversion. I find that matters sonically. YMMV, and part of that might be that I don't use modelers, I use tube amps.

I'm that guy who does comparison test recordings of the differences mic cables make - yeah, there's an audible difference, again probably attributable to capacitance - but you're probably only going to hear it with a very good condenser and mic preamp. Still...every little bit helps.

I don't mind cleaning and wiping my cables down after using them, so that isn't much of an issue.

Are cables a pain? Sure! But they're a good sounding pain, so that's what I use. Come to think of it, everything I use is a pain in the ass, but that describes me as well!

 

[JasonE]

I enjoyed your video, Doug! Very concise, compact, nicely done!

My last wireless system was expensive, and sounded very good, but I do this stuff for a living so I didn't mind the expense.

However, I went back from wireless to using a cable. I like the idea of wireless, of course, but I like the sound using a good cable more. It's one of those personal preference things - we're all different.

I use a German Sommer cable that's got a vanishingly low 16 picofarad/foot capacitance (even a very good cable like Mogami is 48 pF per foot, Van Damme is 24 pF per foot. BTW, Van Damme make PRS' premium cables and they're excellent, lay flat and don't tangle).

Anyway, a good cable sounds great, and avoids an A/D conversion and D/A conversion. I find that matters sonically. YMMV, and part of that might be that I don't use modelers, I use tube amps.

I'm that guy who does comparison test recordings of the differences mic cables make - yeah, there's an audible difference, again probably attributable to capacitance - but you're probably only going to hear it with a very good condenser and mic preamp. Still...every little bit helps.

I don't mind cleaning and wiping my cables down after using them, so that isn't much of an issue.

Are cables a pain? Sure! But they're a good sounding pain, so that's what I use. Come to think of it, everything I use is a pain in the ass, but that describes me as well!

I have typically used cheaper cables and have been pretty satisfied with them. I don't find that I lose definition or high end with them. However, after my latest round of testing out pedals, I am seriously considering getting a good cable or two and trying them out. I heard and felt a difference for the first time while using my wireless this last time. It was more of a feel and reaction than a difference in tone. Like I said, I buy the good wireless units. I don't need them trashing my tone or giving me trouble in the venues I play in. Where do you find good deals on the cables you mentioned?

Sidebar, I switched my amps over to good speaker cables a few years ago. I could hear a difference in those.

 

[László]

I have typically used cheaper cables and have been pretty satisfied with them. I don't find that I lose definition or high end with them. However, after my latest round of testing out pedals, I am seriously considering getting a good cable or two and trying them out. I heard and felt a difference for the first time while using my wireless this last time. It was more of a feel and reaction than a difference in tone. Like I said, I buy the good wireless units. I don't need them trashing my tone or giving me trouble in the venues I play in. Where do you find good deals on the cables you mentioned?

Sidebar, I switched my amps over to good speaker cables a few years ago. I could hear a difference in those.

Jason, there are very good cables that unfortunately for guitar applications have high capacitance. However, these cables are also are well made and reject noise well, like Canare and Mogami, but their capicitance is fairly high at around 48 pF per foot or higher.

With line level signals they're great - that's what they're designed for - but the signal level that comes out of a guitar pickup is a very low level signal.

The high capacitance of these excellent cables will reduce high frequencies with guitar pickups, and you'll notice that at a typical cable length of 10-20'.

The cables that don't have high capacitance - cables like Van Damme Classic XKE (24 pF per foot, half that of Mogami), or certain of the Sommer Spirit SC-LLX cables (16 pF per foot, or 1/3 the capacitance of something like Mogami) run around the same price of less.

The important thing about capacitance is that the total capacitance of a cable is affected by its length, because we're talking about picofarads per FOOT. So what you hear is dependent on cable length!

What this means is that where you'll hear some loss with Mogami at around 15 feet, you can run 30 feet of Van Damme or 45 feet of Sommer SC-LLX with no audible high frequency loss. Or put another way, if you compare a 15 foot Mogami to a 15 foot Sommer SC-LLX, you'll hear more high frequency with the Sommer at the same length of cable.

For an ear-opening experiment, you can hear how capacitance affects high frequency loss due to cable length. Take a one or two foot pedal interconnect and plug your guitar into your amp with it (you might have to move the guitar around to avoid noise from the transformers). Compare it to a 15-20 foot length of the same brand and model of cable. You should hear a very surprising and significant difference.

If this works for you, as it did for me 25 years ago, you now understand the relationship between cable capacitance, cable length, and what higher end guitar cable is really about.

The value of a very low capacitance, high quality cable is that you get more high frequency guitar signal through the same length of cable for your money.

I've never found a deal on either the pre-made ones, or the cables I've had various vendors and techs make (because I'm paying them to make the cables).

You can buy cable in bulk yourself and make your own; I've never been good at that, so I pay others to build them or I buy pre-made cables.

On the other hand, I've got working cables in my studio that have been here for as long as 30 years, so I've gotten good value either paying techs to make them up, or buying pre-made cables. These are Mogami used for line level signals for the most part, I've only found very low capacitance guitar cables that mattered in the last 15-20 years.

Let me know if you ever find a great price!

One last suggestion: If you're interested in saving money, do not try the ESP power cables. OMG, they're ADDICTIVE! I use them for all the important gear in my studio. Anyone can hear the difference, no golden ears needed. They do quote me on their website, but I don't get freebies from them (unfortunately) and they don't pay me a nickel for my endorsement. The owner is a nice guy who asked if he could quote me.

They're especially great with guitar amps and high end studio monitors. Dave Pensado is a very well known engineer and mixer, check out this video. Like I said, do NOT try them if you value your wallet!

 

[JasonE]

Jason, there are very good cables that unfortunately for guitar applications have high capacitance. However, these cables are also are well made and reject noise well, like Canare and Mogami, but their capicitance is fairly high at around 48 pF per foot or higher.

With line level signals they're great - that's what they're designed for - but the signal level that comes out of a guitar pickup is a very low level signal.

The high capacitance of these excellent cables will reduce high frequencies with guitar pickups, and you'll notice that at a typical cable length of 10-20'.

The cables that don't have high capacitance - cables like Van Damme Classic XKE (24 pF per foot, half that of Mogami), or certain of the Sommer Spirit SC-LLX cables (16 pF per foot, or 1/3 the capacitance of something like Mogami) run around the same price of less.

The important thing about capacitance is that the total capacitance of a cable is affected by its length, because we're talking about picofarads per FOOT. So what you hear is dependent on cable length!

What this means is that where you'll hear some loss with Mogami at around 15 feet, you can run 30 feet of Van Damme or 45 feet of Sommer SC-LLX with no audible high frequency loss. Or put another way, if you compare a 15 foot Mogami to a 15 foot Sommer SC-LLX, you'll hear more high frequency with the Sommer at the same length of cable.

For an ear-opening experiment, you can hear how capacitance affects high frequency loss due to cable length. Take a one or two foot pedal interconnect and plug your guitar into your amp with it (you might have to move the guitar around to avoid noise from the transformers). Compare it to a 15-20 foot length of the same brand and model of cable. You should hear a very surprising and significant difference.

If this works for you, as it did for me 25 years ago, you now understand the relationship between cable capacitance, cable length, and what higher end guitar cable is really about.

The value of a very low capacitance, high quality cable is that you get more high frequency guitar signal through the same length of cable for your money.

I've never found a deal on either the pre-made ones, or the cables I've had various vendors and techs make (because I'm paying them to make the cables).

You can buy cable in bulk yourself and make your own; I've never been good at that, so I pay others to build them or I buy pre-made cables.

On the other hand, I've got working cables in my studio that have been here for as long as 30 years, so I've gotten good value either paying techs to make them up, or buying pre-made cables. These are Mogami used for line level signals for the most part, I've only found very low capacitance guitar cables that mattered in the last 15-20 years.

Let me know if you ever find a great price!

One last suggestion: If you're interested in saving money, do not try the ESP power cables. OMG, they're ADDICTIVE! I use them for all the important gear in my studio. Anyone can hear the difference, no golden ears needed. They do quote me on their website, but I don't get freebies from them (unfortunately) and they don't pay me a nickel for my endorsement. The owner is a nice guy who asked if he could quote me.

They're especially great with guitar amps and high end studio monitors. Dave Pensado is a very well known engineer and mixer, check out this video. Like I said, do NOT try them if you value your wallet!

I am aware of how capacitance affects the top end. What I am saying is that I have been able to get tones I like using cheap cables. There was a well known person on here that had the same experience. He purposely used cheap cables because he liked the way they sounded. I think I am in that camp. I tend us use Fender amps and amps with Fender circuits in them, which tend to be bright already. I am now much more open to the idea of a low capacitance cable after my experience with the reconfiguration of my pedal board. I have been on a break from gigging and playing with a band, which is going to end in the near future. My ears seem to have become a little more appreciative of some things during this time. I typically run a Shure or Sennheiser wireless but I was using a cable when I was testing out the pedals. I liked the way things were sounding and working. That is sort of what is driving this.

 

[László]

I am aware of how capacitance affects the top end. What I am saying is that I have been able to get tones I like using cheap cables. There was a well known person on here that had the same experience. He purposely used cheap cables because he liked the way they sounded. I think I am in that camp. I tend us use Fender amps and amps with Fender circuits in them, which tend to be bright already. I am now much more open to the idea of a low capacitance cable after my experience with the reconfiguration of my pedal board. I have been on a break from gigging and playing with a band, which is going to end in the near future. My ears seem to have become a little more appreciative of some things during this time. I typically run a Shure or Sennheiser wireless but I was using a cable when I was testing out the pedals. I liked the way things were sounding and working. That is sort of what is driving this.

There's nothing wrong with picking a higher capacitance cable to tame higher frequencies, where desired. I'd rather use tone controls and have the option to either preserve or roll them off, but that's a personal choice.

I just like to blather on about this stuff, regardless. So any time I can give a pointless speech, I tend to do that!

 

[Moondog Wily]

I have been using cables from Rattlesnake in Missoula Montanna for a few years now and they are by far the best I have ever used (but that does not say all that much though I have tried Mogami and the higher end Fender cables). Here is an article on their website discussing some specs of guitar cables including the pF of the copper they use (they say their 10ft is about 19-21pF and 20ft is about 22-27pF). Small company in the heart of America if that matters any to you ;~)) I have yet to have one kink on me and they offer (at no extra charge I believe) what they call a "snakehead" on the cable which is an extension of the rubber coating on the cable from the end that plugs into your guitar to protect it when running cable through guitar strap for security. And note, not affiliated, no kickbacks, yada yada, just a satisfied customer ;~)) Also, sign up for email deals before you buy and you will certainly get 15-20% off notice within a couple weeks!!!

 

[László]

I have been using cables from Rattlesnake in Missoula Montanna for a few years now and they are by far the best I have ever used (but that does not say all that much though I have tried Mogami and the higher end Fender cables). Here is an article on their website discussing some specs of guitar cables including the pF of the copper they use (they say their 10ft is about 19-21pF and 20ft is about 22-27pF). Small company in the heart of America if that matters any to you ;~)) I have yet to have one kink on me and they offer (at no extra charge I believe) what they call a "snakehead" on the cable which is an extension of the rubber coating on the cable from the end that plugs into your guitar to protect it when running cable through guitar strap for security. And note, not affiliated, no kickbacks, yada yada, just a satisfied customer ;~)) Also, sign up for email deals before you buy and you will certainly get 15-20% off notice within a couple weeks!!!

I'd check out those cables. If true, that's low capacitance stuff. Well worth a shot.

 

[John F]

I read somewhere that Hendrix liked a curly guitar cable because of the sound. (Sorta like an old phone cable that shortens itself when not stretched.) I often wondered if the curly guitar cable has increased inductance as well as a difference in capacitance from a straight cable which affects the sound.

 

[JasonE]

@László and @Moondog Wily have either of you use Lava Cables? I have a friend that used to sell for them. I know they are up in that high end but not sure how they stack up.

I bought George L's cable kits and made my own cables for my pedalboard. I like doing my own for that purpose because I can make them the exact length I want them and I know the solder joints are how I like them because I did them myself. I am pretty decent with a soldering iron. I don't have any problems with buying bulk cable and creating the longer cables myself either. I could go that route if I found a good deal on the cable.

 

[László]

@László and @Moondog Wily have either of you use Lava Cables? I have a friend that used to sell for them. I know they are up in that high end but not sure how they stack up.

I bought George L's cable kits and made my own cables for my pedalboard. I like doing my own for that purpose because I can make them the exact length I want them and I know the solder joints are how I like them because I did them myself. I am pretty decent with a soldering iron. I don't have any problems with buying bulk cable and creating the longer cables myself either. I could go that route if I found a good deal on the cable.

George L's:

I liked using their cable on an earlier pedalboard, but had the connectors short out at inconvenient times during sessions more than once or twice, despite building them very carefully and testing each connection with a multimeter. Since I never fiddled with them when they were on the pedalboard, I have no idea why this happened.

Their instrument-length cables passed high frequencies well, though I thought the bass might have suffered a little. For short pedalboard runs, however, they sounded fine. I'd have kept using them if it wasn't for the unpredictable failures I experienced (I can't troubleshoot cables during a session with time deadlines and client pressure).

So now I use only soldered connectors from G&H or Neutrik, and have the Van den Hul and Evidence Audio cables on the pedalboard (since I can't seem to find anyone offering the Van den Hul I had to switch but haven't noticed a difference so that's good).

Lava:

At one time, Lava offered several brands of high end cables that they'd custom build. Now it's only their own brands, and they're not all what you might expect.

The good -

I had Lava build the custom length Van den Hul cables I use on my pedalboard. They did a nice job, but no longer offer them. Same with the Kimber speaker cable I had them make for the DG30 and HXDA. They no longer offer it.

Their solid core Ultramafic that's very heavy and stiff was quite good: I had some on my pedalboard, but it was too unwieldy to use on my two-tier board, and given its stiffness, It'd be almost unusable on a stage or even in the studio for typical use. Sounds good, though.

They also made up a 50 foot run of their orange Tephra speaker cable, so I can run a cable into my storage room to power a speaker if necessary to keep studio noise down. It's very good speaker cable. The 50 foot run sounds as good as the other speaker cables in my studio that are as short as three feet.

The bad -

I bought one of their Ultramafic Flex cables; they touted it as equal to their solid core stuff. It isn't. Unfortunately, it kills high frequencies more than any cable I've used in many years.

The capacitance must be very high, Perhaps it's supposed to roll off high end, but I find it only usable for line level signals. It's not good with guitar IMHO.

I also bought one of their Lava ELC cables, and didn't care for the sound. I don't know the capacitance.

Based on my experience, I'd say some of their stuff is very good, but the descriptions on their site aren't very good, and you don't necessarily get what you expect for the price, which makes buying from them kind of a crapshoot.

In my studio I use the Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE cable that PRS uses for its deluxe cables for runs from pedalboard to amp switcher, and from amp switcher to amps. Some of the runs combined are 36 feet. I notice no signal degradation; the capacitance is very low.

One reason I like it is that it's extremely light and flexible and lays flat on the floor very well. It seems to resist tangling.

From guitar to pedalboard I use a 10 or 15 foot Sommer or Van Damme cable. I also use the Van Damme speaker cables PRS offers for runs from the amp and speaker cabinet switcher to the cabinets and amps to the switcher. As with the instrument cable, it lays flat, doesn't seem to tangle, and it's light enough that running 8 speaker cables doesn't put a strain on the rack mounted switcher hardware.

 

[JasonE]

George L's:

I liked using their cable on an earlier pedalboard, but had the connectors short out at inconvenient times during sessions more than once or twice, despite building them very carefully and testing each connection with a multimeter. Since I never fiddled with them when they were on the pedalboard, I have no idea why this happened.

Their instrument-length cables passed high frequencies well, though I thought the bass might have suffered a little. For short pedalboard runs, however, they sounded fine. I'd have kept using them if it wasn't for the unpredictable failures I experienced (I can't troubleshoot cables during a session with time deadlines and client pressure).

So now I use only soldered connectors from G&H or Neutrik, and have the Van den Hul and Evidence Audio cables on the pedalboard (since I can't seem to find anyone offering the Van den Hul I had to switch but haven't noticed a difference so that's good).

Lava:

At one time, Lava offered several brands of high end cables that they'd custom build. Now it's only their own brands, and they're not all what you might expect.

The good -

I had Lava build the custom length Van den Hul cables I use on my pedalboard. They did a nice job, but no longer offer them. Same with the Kimber speaker cable I had them make for the DG30 and HXDA. They no longer offer it.

Their solid core Ultramafic that's very heavy and stiff was quite good: I had some on my pedalboard, but it was too unwieldy to use on my two-tier board, and given its stiffness, It'd be almost unusable on a stage or even in the studio for typical use. Sounds good, though.

They also made up a 50 foot run of their orange Tephra speaker cable, so I can run a cable into my storage room to power a speaker if necessary to keep studio noise down. It's very good speaker cable. The 50 foot run sounds as good as the other speaker cables in my studio that are as short as three feet.

The bad -

I bought one of their Ultramafic Flex cables; they touted it as equal to their solid core stuff. It isn't. Unfortunately, it kills high frequencies more than any cable I've used in many years.

The capacitance must be very high, Perhaps it's supposed to roll off high end, but I find it only usable for line level signals. It's not good with guitar IMHO.

I also bought one of their Lava ELC cables, and didn't care for the sound. I don't know the capacitance.

Based on my experience, I'd say some of their stuff is very good, but the descriptions on their site aren't very good, and you don't necessarily get what you expect for the price, which makes buying from them kind of a crapshoot.

In my studio I use the Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE cable that PRS uses for its deluxe cables for runs from pedalboard to amp switcher, and from amp switcher to amps. Some of the runs combined are 36 feet. I notice no signal degradation; the capacitance is very low.

One reason I like it is that it's extremely light and flexible and lays flat on the floor very well. It seems to resist tangling.

From guitar to pedalboard I use a 10 or 15 foot Sommer or Van Damme cable. I also use the Van Damme speaker cables PRS offers for runs from the amp and speaker cabinet switcher to the cabinets and amps to the switcher. As with the instrument cable, it lays flat, doesn't seem to tangle, and it's light enough that running 8 speaker cables doesn't put a strain on the rack mounted switcher hardware.

I only use soldered cables on my pedalboard. At this time they are all ones that I made myself. I have never had one have an issue that I have made myself. Hopefully that trend continues now that I have jinxed myself... I have never trusted the solderless cable systems. My board gets hauled around and I know for sure that those will fail at some point on me.

The speaker cables I switched over to a few years ago are the PRS deluxe cables. Maybe I will look at their instrument cables and pick a couple of those up.

I was a bit afraid of exactly what you mentioned with Lava Cable... I will probably look into the PRS cables.

 

[László]

I only use soldered cables on my pedalboard. At this time they are all ones that I made myself. I have never had one have an issue that I have made myself. Hopefully that trend continues now that I have jinxed myself... I have never trusted the solderless cable systems. My board gets hauled around and I know for sure that those will fail at some point on me.

The speaker cables I switched over to a few years ago are the PRS deluxe cables. Maybe I will look at their instrument cables and pick a couple of those up.

I was a bit afraid of exactly what you mentioned with Lava Cable... I will probably look into the PRS cables.

Very smart that you solder them if you take the board out often, or just can’t have it fail for whatever reason!

Nothing to lose by trying the PRS cables!

I may have given those Lava cables away; I was surprised that I didn’t find them useful. They weren’t cheap!

 

[JasonE]

Very smart that you solder them if you take the board out often, or just can’t have it fail for whatever reason!

Nothing to lose by trying the PRS cables!

I may have given those Lava cables away; I was surprised that I didn’t find them useful. They weren’t cheap!

I see the PRS Signature cables are made by Van Damme. I may pick up a couple of those. Just need to decide on the connectors and length. I am leaning towards a straight on one end and angle on the other in 25'. I thought about one 18' and one 25' but having too much length is not really an issue. Not enough is an issue.

 

[László]

I see the PRS Signature cables are made by Van Damme. I may pick up a couple of those. Just need to decide on the connectors and length. I am leaning towards a straight on one end and angle on the other in 25'. I thought about one 18' and one 25' but having too much length is not really an issue. Not enough is an issue.

With the PRS/Van Damme I don't notice the difference between their 18 and their 25 foot cables. I'd say get the 25 if you think you might want the extra length.

 

[Moondog Wily]

@László and @Moondog Wily have either of you use Lava Cables?

Can't help you there ;~(( I do love lava though, I find it to be a fascinating phenomenon! My EBMM Stingray bass has a "Lava Pearl" finish and it is one of the best opaque finishes I have ever seen ;~))

 

[JasonE]

With the PRS/Van Damme I don't notice the difference between their 18 and their 25 foot cables. I'd say get the 25 if you think you might want the extra length.

That is what I am thinking. It looks like the current price on them is a sale price that is good until some time in November. I will hold on a month or so and recover from this pedal buying spree I went on and then pick a couple of them up. 4 pedals in just over a month is probably a record for me... Three of them have Andy Timmons' name on them... I have never really listened to him outside of when he was with Danger Danger but he and I seem to like the same things when it comes to drive pedals.

 

[Senor Verde]

I've been using Lava ELC for several years. I haven't tried a lot of cables, but they've been my favorite to date. Much better for me than Canare, Mogami Gold, Evidence, Monster and Dimarzio American Stage.