As A Guitar Ages...A Discussion.

It's an interesting topic!


For sure!

Not directly related to playing time, but I love what Bob Benedetto says, and did. He made a guitar with all really poor woods, knots and everything, and made it sound as good (according to him and others who have played it) as any guitar he has made. Of course he taps and carves, taps and carves. With production guitars and specified shapes and dimensions, you do not have that luxury.
 
I definitely think that guitars sound different as they age. It's much more noticeable on an acoustic or arch top, to my ears. I do have a couple old electrics, which sound considerably different than new models. I think it was PRSh who said that it's due to the resins crystallizing. I also recall reading about someone weighing their guitar (a Les Paul I think). After letting it sit outside to fade the finish, the guitar had lost something like 8 oz in weight in a day. Crazy huh?

One thing that I don't think gets enough attention when it comes to electrics are pickups. Evidently, Alnico pickups can lose some of their magnetism as they age. (De-gaussing?) I'm lucky to have a couple guitars with vintage PAF pickups. Obviously, I never heard them when they were new, but they're the best sounding pickups I've ever heard.
 
kingsleyd;175964How many of y'all spend any serious amount of time playing your electric guitars unplugged? For whatever reason said:
I'm that guy who has always spent a lot of time playing unplugged. Yessir. And a large part of how I think about guitars comes from that, too.

While I can't deny that my electrics have changed over time - my experience over a long period of time is limited to that old SG - I haven't heard it. Yet.

However, I plan to spend the rest of my time on the planet with the McCarty Singlecut, so we shall see. I hope I'll be around long enough to find out! ;)
 
I'm that guy who has always spent a lot of time playing unplugged. Yessir. And a large part of how I think about guitars comes from that, too.

While I can't deny that my electrics have changed over time - my experience over a long period of time is limited to that old SG - I haven't heard it. Yet.

However, I plan to spend the rest of my time on the planet with the McCarty Singlecut, so we shall see. I hope I'll be around long enough to find out! ;)

And here I was hoping you would find something even better and pass that one along!
 
Over the 35 years I've had my Les Paul, my first inclination is to say yes, I believe it has mellowed with time. But certain variables enter the equation that have and have not been mentioned. First, 1979 was a horrible year for Gibson production, IMO - oodles of issues could have sonic impact over the years. Add to that, my rig at that time was as far from optimal as it gets. And possibly the biggest variable of all, my ears were young and still fully functioning. While I know in my heart that this old Lester sounds pretty ok now, if it were placed in a time capsule for the last 3 and a half decades, there's no way it would sound the same to me. I don't hear the same today. My 335 may sound a little warmer. My beater acoustic may sound warmer. But more than likely, my high frequency perception is tragically different than it was in 1979.
 
But more than likely, my high frequency perception is tragically different than it was in 1979.

The good news for guitar players with moderate hearing loss is that a guitar amp really doesn't produce highs above around 5 kHz. So one's hearing doesn't have to be perfect to hear what's going on.
 
The good news for guitar players with moderate hearing loss is that a guitar amp really doesn't produce highs above around 5 kHz. So one's hearing doesn't have to be perfect to hear what's going on.


What about for us who are deaf in one ear and cant hear out the other two? :iamconfused:
 
I read the original post and comments.....and I avoided reading the replies, because I had some thoughts and didn't want to be influenced by other's remarks.

This topic brings 2 thoughts to mind.

The first: read the book "This is your brain on music". Music is a very emotional endeavour. To play...and to experience...no two people experience it the exact same way. No two people, professional or casual fan, HEARS music the same way. My point here is.....let's say "Joe" had his first experience in music listening to Jimi Hendrix and loved it. Let's say Joe really gets into it, and starts to play guitar himself. It's quite likely that Joe will lean towards and favor the sound of a fender strat. Why? Because of the underlying emotional attachment.

Let's be honest...strats, by and large, are poorly built and haven't changed sine the 50's. It's a fact that Hendrix himself preferred NEW gear. Time and distance makes everything seem better.

I would argue this is one of the main selling points of gear, guitars especially. That whole "remember when" idea.

You don't see drum manufacturers pulling this stunt. Which brings me to point #2

Neil Peart of Rush gave a gear/technical interview in which he said basically "new is better". Pretty much the same as the James Taylor reference earlier.

All these equipment manufacturers working tirelessly to IMPROVE gear---guitars, basses, drums, etc

They are doing a great job...case in point----the guy who's name graces is website.

Let's be real---if Leo Fender got it so right the first time, there'd be 500 guitars on the planet that we'd all be fighting over.

I prefer new gear and the technology and thinking that goes into it....

I almost.....ALMOST....find it insulting when people ramble on about "they don't build me like that any more". You only THINK that because...well, see point #1

It's like seeing a rock band and saying "I only like their old stuff"....


Thanks!

Good topic
 
I almost.....ALMOST....find it insulting when people ramble on about "they don't build me like that any more". You only THINK that because...well, see point #1

It's like seeing a rock band and saying "I only like their old stuff"....

Well sometimes the old stuff actually IS better. (case in point: Yes. Compare Close to the Edge to their last couple of records. not even close, sorry.)

As to guitars, sometimes the old stuff actually is better as well. I have a house full of guitars. Well, one room, but it's a BIG room LOL. I have nice old ones. I have nice new ones, as in brand new, less than 2 years old. I have lots of nice ones in that in-between stage, more than 5 years old, less than 20. While I'm not going to argue the point that in many cases what you describe is exactly what's going on (how else would Fender be moving so many "relic" Stratocasters?) there's another whole side to it that tends to get ignored, which is that some people who play actually listen and make relatively objective judgments about the relative merits of different instruments. Of course their perspectives are colored at least to some extent by experience and the sounds they grew up with, not one of us is ever truly objective, but some people wear that a lot more lightly than others. In any event, there are some clear and very obvious differences in character between the old ones taken-as-a-group and the new ones taken-as-a-group. Which is the only way one can actually deal with these issues, because there is so much individual variation among guitars (even ones that are ostensibly "the same") that it's a fool's errand to simply compare two guitars and think one can learn anything generalizable from doing so.

In the meantime, I just had a conversation on the topic of energy fields and guitar/player interaction with a good friend, while said friend was doing virtual acupuncture on me from 1000 miles away. One thing that came up had a direct bearing on the "it's all in the hands" theory. (well, it all did, but this particular thing is a little more in line with what most people would recognize as "scientifically valid") Our bodies have an electromagnetic field. It's how your iPhone or tablet works -- the screen responds to the electric signal your fingertip generates. It even gets to know your particular galvanic response a little better over time, sort of like the voice-recognition part. ("Siri")

Well, consider an electric guitar. What are you doing? Your one hand is pressing down on those metal strings, right? And your other hand is more or less right over those pickups, which themselves are creating a magnetic field that responds to the motion of the strings. (and RF information that's out there as well, as anyone who plays single-coil pickups knows all too well) Don't you think that the particular person's magnetic signature would make a difference, and be part of why, when I pick up Kimock's guitar and he picks up mine, the guitars sound very different than they do when in the hands of their owners? Yeah, the bag of protoplasm holding the guitar makes a diff too, and I'm sure it would be a complicated knot to untangle if you wanted to figure out which element made "more" difference. How much difference does it make? Well from a perceptual standpoint, that all depends on how good your perceptual apparatus is. And I'm not just talking about hearing-as-measured-by-an-audiologist, I'm talking about how well you can interpret the information your perceptual apparatus is sending to your brain. Two very different (if not entirely unrelated) issues.

And then there's the whole question of, "Does the guitar remember that energetic interaction over time? Does the player?" To my friend, the answer is as plain as the nose on his face. But he operates a little differently than most of us. :) To me, it just makes more sense than the alternative hypothesis (there's no memory effect, no effect at all from playing a guitar over time, on either the player or on the guitar) which flies in the face of my nearly 50 years' experience playing guitars.
 
Well sometimes the old stuff actually IS better. (case in point: Yes. Compare Close to the Edge to their last couple of records. not even close, sorry.)

As to guitars, sometimes the old stuff actually is better as well. I have a house full of guitars. Well, one room, but it's a BIG room LOL. I have nice old ones. I have nice new ones, as in brand new, less than 2 years old. I have lots of nice ones in that in-between stage, more than 5 years old, less than 20. While I'm not going to argue the point that in many cases what you describe is exactly what's going on (how else would Fender be moving so many "relic" Stratocasters?) there's another whole side to it that tends to get ignored, which is that some people who play actually listen and make relatively objective judgments about the relative merits of different instruments. Of course their perspectives are colored at least to some extent by experience and the sounds they grew up with, not one of us is ever truly objective, but some people wear that a lot more lightly than others. In any event, there are some clear and very obvious differences in character between the old ones taken-as-a-group and the new ones taken-as-a-group. Which is the only way one can actually deal with these issues, because there is so much individual variation among guitars (even ones that are ostensibly "the same") that it's a fool's errand to simply compare two guitars and think one can learn anything generalizable from doing so.

In the meantime, I just had a conversation on the topic of energy fields and guitar/player interaction with a good friend, while said friend was doing virtual acupuncture on me from 1000 miles away. One thing that came up had a direct bearing on the "it's all in the hands" theory. (well, it all did, but this particular thing is a little more in line with what most people would recognize as "scientifically valid") Our bodies have an electromagnetic field. It's how your iPhone or tablet works -- the screen responds to the electric signal your fingertip generates. It even gets to know your particular galvanic response a little better over time, sort of like the voice-recognition part. ("Siri")

Well, consider an electric guitar. What are you doing? Your one hand is pressing down on those metal strings, right? And your other hand is more or less right over those pickups, which themselves are creating a magnetic field that responds to the motion of the strings. (and RF information that's out there as well, as anyone who plays single-coil pickups knows all too well) Don't you think that the particular person's magnetic signature would make a difference, and be part of why, when I pick up Kimock's guitar and he picks up mine, the guitars sound very different than they do when in the hands of their owners? Yeah, the bag of protoplasm holding the guitar makes a diff too, and I'm sure it would be a complicated knot to untangle if you wanted to figure out which element made "more" difference. How much difference does it make? Well from a perceptual standpoint, that all depends on how good your perceptual apparatus is. And I'm not just talking about hearing-as-measured-by-an-audiologist, I'm talking about how well you can interpret the information your perceptual apparatus is sending to your brain. Two very different (if not entirely unrelated) issues.

And then there's the whole question of, "Does the guitar remember that energetic interaction over time? Does the player?" To my friend, the answer is as plain as the nose on his face. But he operates a little differently than most of us. :) To me, it just makes more sense than the alternative hypothesis (there's no memory effect, no effect at all from playing a guitar over time, on either the player or on the guitar) which flies in the face of my nearly 50 years' experience playing guitars.

Kingsley, I'm buying and agreeing with your comments on guitars and individual perspectives, and the whole filter of individual experience. And yes, of course, our bodies produce electricity and our nervous and muscular systems (and in fact every cell in our bodies) depend on that electrical energy. I'm good with that.

The rest is so far out of my wheelhouse except for that one time in college that...well, let's not go there...but let me just say that if you can get virtual acupuncture from 1000 miles away, I would be really appreciative if you could find me a couple of virtual hookers because that seems to me to be a whole lot more fun than virtual acupuncture. And it would probably be legal.
 
Regarding electrics, I do believe they change with age, but that the change is not necessarily an improvement. Some get better, some get worse, some stay about the same with subtle differences. I also believe there is no magic era - there are good and bad guitars made in the '50's, '60's, '70's, etc...all this meaning, just because one is old does not mean it is good.

I noticed a long time ago that some old guitars look beat to hell and others are in amazing shape. I have always felt that it's because the good ones got played a lot from day one and the dogs were left sitting in their cases. Time hasn't changed the fact that it was a bad guitar from the beginning.

PRSh said much the same thing at Experience one year. He said people go nuts when they find a '59 LP in pristine condition because it sat under a bed for 50 years. He went on to say that, most of the time, it sat unplayed because it sounded like crap.
 
I guess you're talking about the "break-in" process. From being an audiophile for 24 years, I know for a fact that everything that moves breaks in. From speakers to cables to electronics, will, after a certain amount of time, change sounding-wise.

When Paul was here over a year ago, I asked him about break-in as he handed me a $19k Tonare to bang on. His reply was "I don't believe in it".

I have a product called "Tone-Rite" that vibrates at 60Hz when attached to the strings. I've tried it both on my Kronbauer and Turner Compass Rose.
 
I guess you're talking about the "break-in" process. From being an audiophile for 24 years, I know for a fact that everything that moves breaks in. From speakers to cables to electronics, will, after a certain amount of time, change sounding-wise.

Well, as a studio owner doing music for a living I'd say that I'm fairly well into audio myself, and while I've found that speakers and dynamic mics break in - their cones/voice coils move quite a lot - I haven't found the same to be true with most electronics, condenser microphones, etc. In fact, the mark of a well made condenser mic is that it remains consistent from new. Same with good recording electronics - the whole idea is that they stay in spec.

I'm 100% sure that cables do not break in, by the way. This is audiophile mythology. I won't even use the usual YMMV disclaimer. It's not happening. However, cables can sound a little different. I've done so much experimenting with cables over the years that there are fellow studio owners who think I'm a little nuts. I've even tried special power cables (that do nothing in my opinion).

I do find that tube amplifiers break in a bit, which one might expect due to their large transformers that vibrate noticeably, and the heat of the tubes.

In fact, the biggest break-in difference that I've ever experienced in an amplifier occurred with my PRS David Grissom Custom 30 amp. I had a very difficult time dialing it in at first, then after a few weeks I turned it on one day, and it just seemed to bloom. It was noticeably different, in fact, I wished I'd been able to record the difference! But I hadn't expected it to change so much, so I missed that opportunity.

When Paul was here over a year ago, I asked him about break-in as he handed me a $19k Tonare to bang on. His reply was "I don't believe in it".

Yeah, I know, someone else posted that he says that in essence, what we perceive as break-in is the paint drying. I actually have a Private Stock Tonare, and it has noticeably broken in, so there's that. Maybe the paint dried?

I have a product called "Tone-Rite" that vibrates at 60Hz when attached to the strings. I've tried it both on my Kronbauer and Turner Compass Rose.

What have you found as a result? I'm interested in your take on how that gizmo works.

My thinking is that if the thing vibrates at 60 Hz, that isn't very much like music. First of all, guitars don't put out a 60Hz tone in real life, they bottom out around 100Hz. And of course, when you play a guitar, you're vibrating it at all the frequencies it actually plays, not just the low frequencies.

But this topic isn't about logic, I think it's partly about finding something that actually works, and partly about whether our beliefs are confirmed, etc.
 
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This is from an interview w/ Steve Howe that I found interesting

You’ve talked elsewhere about how you play the ES-175 for about 20 minutes to “warm it up.” Can you elaborate?
That’s from an article I read in Science Today, or New Scientist or something. Apparently some tests were done on guitars in Japan, where they found that until it’s been played for about 20 minutes, it’s not fully resonant and fully responsive. That’s especially true if it’s been sitting in a case, where it hasn’t been played for months. But in a larger sense, if you haven’t played a guitar a lot, then you’re not going to get a lot out of it. You have to put something in to get something out. That’s what I discovered with the 175. After putting five or six years into it I had a fantastic guitar. Whenever I let someone play it--and there were only about three people who were allowed (laughs)--they went, “This is an amazing guitar to play!” Partly it was because of the strings I use, the gauges, but also it was because I had played it so much. I only had it re-fretted after having played it for about 45 years. That’s another amazing aspect.
 
I saw Steve's 175 up close & personal in 2002. (no, I wasn't allowed to play it! I did get a couple of minutes hands-on with the Close to the Edge ES-345 though) It hadn't been refretted, or had any fretwork done at that point. Those things were a mess. Don't know how he could stand it. I met Steve a few hours later. It made more sense then. He's um, er, unique​.
 
I saw Steve's 175 up close & personal in 2002. (no, I wasn't allowed to play it! I did get a couple of minutes hands-on with the Close to the Edge ES-345 though) It hadn't been refretted, or had any fretwork done at that point. Those things were a mess. Don't know how he could stand it. I met Steve a few hours later. It made more sense then. He's um, er, unique​.

He is a unique player afterall....still one of my biggest influences but I would turn down the chance to meet him...it would ruin it for me!
 
He is a unique player afterall....still one of my biggest influences but I would turn down the chance to meet him...it would ruin it for me!

That tour was the Yessongs band. I'd gone to the venue (which was in my then-hometown, Durham NH) with a couple of gig bags over my shoulder and used the "Klein Electric Guitars rep" strategy -- same thing PRSh did in the early days -- to get to Steve's tech. After a 2-hour hang onstage with him in his onstage portable guitar repair shop (!) I stopped at my local coffee shop where I happened to be in line behind Rick Wakeman who was there with Jon Anderson. 90 minutes of chat and hilarity later, I had two new friends, VIP backstage passes, and front-row comp tickets. Great guys, those two, and we had a good hang after the show as well. (with a couple of hilarious moments when they asked me, "How did it go with Steve? Did he like your guitars?"; clearly they think Steve is rather odd as well, although Rick used a more colourful expression ;))

Steve, ehhrmmm... ...to be fair, it would have been better to meet him under other circumstances. Shortly before sound check is the worst possible time to meet any musician who's as fastidious about things as Steve is.
 
I remember a discussion somewhere a while back, talking about the difference of a guitar that basically was a case queen vs. one that had been on many stages and had the crap played out of it. During the conversation, it was then debated, say you have a guitar(a back up or 2nd guitar) that had sat next to or in front of your 4x12 cab kicking out 100+ db for 10 years....would the sound waves and vibrations change the sound of the less played guitar more -since it was sitting in front of the amp? What would create more change, physically playing the guitar or having sound blasting at it and vibrating it? I subscribe to the thought that the sweat and oils from your hands will change the fretboard wood; and I suppose the thinner the finish on the body and neck, some there too. On the pickups as well. Enough for an audible change in tone? Probably minute. As stated a bunch, there's too many other variables that would make a bigger impact. I think changes in the aging of an amp would be more noticeable. I think most of us agree that acoustics change over time. I question whether there's a point the acoustic's tone will stop changing? By Paul's belief, with the finish drying being the main factor, it would seem that the answer would be yes? I suppose it depends on how many variables you belief can change the tone of an instrument. It's a fun topic to think about and debate, that's for sure! :top:
 
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