Archon 100w on the way

In theory at least, the Archon should be easier to dial in than the V25. That said, after reading the manual prior to even trying a full sized Mark V, and reading threads at the Mesa forum, I didn't have any trouble AT ALL dialing in great tones on the V or the V25. If you came from a Classic 30 (I had one years ago as well) the V25 and Archon should be welcoming you to the higher end of great amps. Despite the V25's smaller power stage, it is a fantastic sounding amp and many different types of tones. The Archon seems to be the same, but in your case in a much more powerful form.

Just enjoy the heck out of both of them! Congrats again!!! You have two GREAT amps now. Once you've digested some more, let us know what you think. If I ever find an Archon at my PRS dealer, I'll certainly check it out and share my thoughts. I'm very anxious to try one.
 
Les, I hear ya. And I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. But I tested my V25 one day on the (edited for accuracy) Crunch setting, gain at 1:00, master at 9:00 >2 1x12 cabs with V30. It was over 100dB. At times, well over 100dB. I'm a rocker and I like it pretty loud, but I learned years ago (in my audiophile days) about the damage caused by sustained higher volumes.

(edited to reduce off topic clutter) :flute:

Yes, I have ear plugs. Not for home though. Your studio room looks to be pretty good sized. Have you ever checked to see what kind of dB level you are at when tracking? I'm just curious because I know you probably haven't abused your ears, since they are your living.

Because you mentioned it, I decided to make some measurements with the HXDA today at my normal practicing and recording levels.

Most typically I record with the master volume between 2:00 and 3:00, which is a very good sounding setting. With the guitar volume on 10, bridge pickup on the McCarty, I measured an A-weighted SPL at my workstation area of between 88 and 94 db on average, depending on how hard I picked. Those are safe levels if you don't exceed about 4 hours, according to the OSHA standard, and about 2-3 hours under the NIOSH standard, which is a little stricter.

Halfway to the cab, the measured levels rose to about 98 db max, so simply by having my heads and playing area 10 feet further back, I'm "saving" 4db of SPL, which means I can play twice as long without risk of noise induced hearing loss. Generally I don't play for more than a half hour at a time.

I should have mentioned that when I need to have the amp pushed louder, I use a gobo to block the sound coming off the cab into the room. This very significantly reduces the SPL, but I didn't measure it today.

I also measured the decibel level I use at my workstation while working with my studio monitors, and it averages around 80 db. OSHA says that's fine for about 16 hours of work.
 
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The Archon specializes in producing a very musical clean as well as a face melting, hell bent for leather distortion for heavy metal. As such, the Archon is not ideally suited for thick warm Blues guitar. Your MESA Mark 5:25 would be better for some blues as well as some vintage Metallica with the EQ sliders in the classic V pattern.
 
Because you mentioned it, I decided to make some measurements with the HXDA today at my normal practicing and recording levels.

I REALLY want to add a HXDA to my amp collection but it will be a while before I would be in a position to buy one.
 
The mark V:25 and rectoverb 25 both "suffer" from the same problem, and that is no master volume. The volume taper (even on 10w) is extremely aggressive and comes on fast. I picked up my rectoverb 25 head and 1x12 cab hoping for a low power option to my roadster and find that I get much better volume control and tone out of the roadster.
 
The mark V:25 and rectoverb 25 both "suffer" from the same problem, and that is no master volume. The volume taper (even on 10w) is extremely aggressive and comes on fast. I picked up my rectoverb 25 head and 1x12 cab hoping for a low power option to my roadster and find that I get much better volume control and tone out of the roadster.

This really is something I agree with.

Amps were invented and designed to work in the context of bands; originally that meant big bands, later it meant rock bands. So by the 60s, amps got louder and louder. The tones we heard on records that became iconic were made with big amps, or with small amps cranked to the max to distort the power section of the amp.

The original reason for the rediscovery of low power amps 20 years ago, was the ability to crank the power tubes to the max without going deaf, to get a grinding old school sound as Page did with the Supro, or Clapton with a Tweed Champ. Great for studio work.

Only later did players get the notion that they could still get good tone from a lower power amp by adding a master volume, and calling it a bedroom amp. But run an old 12 or 15 watt Fender cranked, and you still have a very loud amp! Throw on a master, and yeah, it's not as loud, but there's not much tone left. That's the rub.

The whole point of a low power amp is to get the power tubes cooking! But with a master, most of them are dialed in to sound fizzy, and without the big transformers and so on that bigger amps have, the tone can go missing.

My HXDA 30 sounds different from my former HXDA 50, even though it has the same power tubes and transformer! What's missing is that low end, almost uncontrolled "the amp is about to bust loose" wallop that still comes through on the 50 even when the master is reducing the volume. That's almost as much a feel thing when you're playing as a tone thing. Hard to describe, but we've all experienced it I'm sure.

So I crank the master on the 30 to get close to that, and sure, it does sound close to the 50 at a slightly lower volume than the 50 if the 50's master is cranked. Only the 50 doesn't need to be as loud to get that wallop.

There's a trade-off.

And it is still a little different, not a smaller version of the same tone, because tube amps don't behave like a transistor modeling amp where turning down the volume sounds pretty much the same, just less loud (fletcher-Munson curve and speaker distortion notwithstanding).

There is one advantage to the 30 and that is I can involve the power tubes more in the studio at 3 db less volume, which matters to the mics and recording gear, but it's still plenty loud.

This is has happened with every MV small amp I've played through, regardless of brand. The lower the power, the less sense the Master seems to make.

My DG 30's master works best when the amp is switched to Boost mode. In its regular position, the master really needs to be at least 3/4 of the way up to get the best tone. Either way, though, it's loud. Also, it's very, very good sounding!

I guess my point is that the low power versions of most amps don't sound the same as the big amps regardless of master volumes, and the bigger amps' master volumes make more sense and wind up sounding better anyway.

For me, 2016 will hopefully mean a 50 watt, loud, DG50 and a 100 watt Archon if all goes well, to complete my amp Arsenal. Because I like the sound of bigger amps. Accept no substitutes! ;)
 
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they could still get good tone from a lower power amp by adding a master volume. But run an old 12 or 15 watt Fender cranked, and you still have a very loud amp! Throw on a master, and yeah, it's not as loud, but there's not much tone left.

Trouble is, that the whole point of a low power amp is indeed to get the power tubes cooking! So most of them are dialed in to sound fizzy, and without the big transformers and so on that bigger amps have, the tone can go missing.

Les, If one biased the tubes hotter, say instead of say 35, and went hotter, say something like 45 or even 55, would'nt the hotter bias help the tubes break up earlier in a lower watt or even higher watt amp? :confused:
 
Does anybody have any experience with the PRS 4x12 Stealth cab? I'm just wondering what the opinions are on it. I have a Mesa Recto 2x12 right now.

Thanks
 
Les, If one biased the tubes hotter, say instead of say 35, and went hotter, say something like 45 or even 55, would'nt the hotter bias help the tubes break up earlier in a lower watt or even higher watt amp? :confused:

I learned not to speak in absolutes in forums, because... well... anyway :))) it is "generally" accepted that you can bias hotter and most amps WILL sound better at lower volumes, but burn tubes faster when turned up. I've even seen amp techs at TGP say that they ask users if they are mainly home players, or how loud the play the amp most of the time, because they can bias the amp to sound better at low or mid volumes, or bias it to be cranked way up.

While I agree with what Les said above, I'll disagree with with the post previous to that. I own both a Mini Rec and a V25 and neither of them has the "instant on" volume taper of some of my previous amps. My Peavey Classic 30 for example, had a tiny tiny range, where I could turn it, kick on a distortion pedal (set not much past unity) and play it at home. If I BREATHED on the master, it was suddenly way louder than I could play (at that time) at home. I have NO issue at all with either my Mini Rec or my V25. We have company for the holidays, and last night after I worked out, while the girls were making cookies I disappeared into the music room and played the V25 for almost 30 minutes. My wife actually came back and said "Oh I thought you were still in the workout room" because she didn't even hear me.

No, it doesn't sound as good as it does turned up a little. Of course not. But it easily does this! Not the super touchy, huge volume jump with a 1/16" volume bump taper that some amps have
 
Thank you DTR for the info. If I am doing something wrong with my forum etiquette. Please, Do tell, as I am not in the loop if I am doing something wrong. After a few years on the forum, I still find it awkward. My age and technology rebellion seem unwavering!
 
Les, your post is exactly why I am still struggling to decide between 50w and 100w for the Archon I want to pick up this year. I just cant seem to get my RV 25 head to behave well, at an acceptable volume level it just sounds like the amp is struggling to breathe, and forget about using the Modern setting on the amp even though the 1x12 mini recto cab I have its just too loud. I am hoping I can pick up a vertical Mesa 2x12 (PRS should really make this form factor) and an Archon sometime in 2016.
 
Audie, I'm not even sure what your asking. Nothing wrong at all that I can see. If you mean my disagreeing with the previous post, I meant the one that said the Mini Rec and V25 had a super aggressive volume pot taper. Yes, it can get loud early, but at least it's smooth in progression. No radical volume jumps with 1/32" knob bumps, as some amps are prone to do.

PRS service center is beyond great. I'd just email them and ask them... "if I play mainly at home and never turn it up even half way, where should I set the bias for better tone at lower volume playing." I bet they have the perfect answer. In fact, I'm glad you brought this up because it's something I'd like to know for my 2 Channel Custom.

Heck I owe you because for some reason, I hadn't even thought of this yet. I was going to swap to EL34s and hadn't even thought to ask about a little hotter bias first, since with a 50 watter I NEVER turn it up much. Clean, I've gone to 1:00 with the gain at noon (when nobody was home! LOL) but gain channel, gain at noon, when I turn the volume to 10:00 it's loud. 11:00 is WAY more than I can do in a normal sized room.

So, you let me know what they say if you ask, and I promise to let you know if I experiment some. That said, I'd never go in 10 at a time, more like 2! Baby steps here, IMHO. So they suggest 30, I'd go 32, then maybe 34 then 36, and would be really careful going more than that without their blessing. But a little should warm the amp up at lower volumes, which sounds like what you and I both want.
 
All good. I play through a Mesa Boogie Kingsnake. If I get the master volume up to 5 I get all the sweet creamy sustain and stuff you can ask for. Just "5" is a little loud for the house. I am thinking if I raise up the bias numbers of the power tubes I could get that same effect at a little lower master volume. That is assuming they are in the 35 range already.
 
Les, If one biased the tubes hotter, say instead of say 35, and went hotter, say something like 45 or even 55, would'nt the hotter bias help the tubes break up earlier in a lower watt or even higher watt amp? :confused:

I honestly don't know. :dontknow:

Les, your post is exactly why I am still struggling to decide between 50w and 100w for the Archon I want to pick up this year. I just cant seem to get my RV 25 head to behave well, at an acceptable volume level it just sounds like the amp is struggling to breathe, and forget about using the Modern setting on the amp even though the 1x12 mini recto cab I have its just too loud. I am hoping I can pick up a vertical Mesa 2x12 (PRS should really make this form factor) and an Archon sometime in 2016.

It's tough to compare Mesa and PRS amps...here's why I'd get the 100 (and of course this is just my thinking as it applies to my own preferences, and not a prescription for anyone else).

The 100 has a half power switch and a great master volume. That'd be enough for me. Why 100? The 100 should have a tighter bass and more headroom on the clean channel, but of course, it wouldn't be hugely different from the 50. Still, it seems to me that if I'm going to play a high gain amp, I want one that's tight as possible in the low frequencies.

So speaking only for myself, that would be the end of the decision making process.

But if 50 watts seems preferable, and you don't need the additional clean headroom, and would like an amp switchable down to 25, well, that's still a pretty powerful amp!
 
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The 100 has a half power switch and a great master volume.
Remember pulling a pair of tubes from your old Marshall/Fender to bring down the power? This was the age-old power scaling trick, which is the same as the power switch. But, the transformers used in a 100w are usually different from those in a 50w and just about everyone has agreed that the real amp magic happens in the transformer(s). So, can you really get a free Archon 50 with the purchase of every Archon 100? I'd venture to say, no. Close, but not exact. So buy what you like. There's no surprise prize in every cereal box.
 
Remember pulling a pair of tubes from your old Marshall/Fender to bring down the power? This was the age-old power scaling trick, which is the same as the power switch. But, the transformers used in a 100w are usually different from those in a 50w and just about everyone has agreed that the real amp magic happens in the transformer(s). So, can you really get a free Archon 50 with the purchase of every Archon 100? I'd venture to say, no. Close, but not exact. So buy what you like. There's no surprise prize in every cereal box.

I do remember guys doing that tube-pulling trick, but I never did it (not for any particular reason, I guess I just didn't mind the extra power).

But when it comes to PRS amps, as far as I'm concerned, there is a prize in every box! ;)
 
I honestly don't know. :dontknow:



It's tough to compare Mesa and PRS amps...here's why I'd get the 100 (and of course this is just my thinking as it applies to my own preferences, and not a prescription for anyone else).

The 100 has a half power switch and a great master volume. That'd be enough for me. Why 100? The 100 should have a tighter bass and more headroom on the clean channel, but of course, it wouldn't be hugely different from the 50. Still, it seems to me that if I'm going to play a high gain amp, I want one that's tight as possible in the low frequencies.

So speaking only for myself, that would be the end of the decision making process.

But if 50 watts seems preferable, and you don't need the additional clean headroom, and would like an amp switchable down to 25, well, that's still a pretty powerful amp!

So I just got back from messing around with a 100w Archon head with a 30th anni custom 24 played through a horizontal EVH 2x12 cab(tricked my wife saying I was going to look at sales lol) and here are my findings....all EQs were around noon.

The volume knob on each channel is acts much more like a gain knob than a volume knob.
On 100w the volume rolls on hard and fast, but is still more manageable than the RV25.
Even with the "volume" cranked on the clean channel and the master clean volume set to 7-8 o'clock (which was quite loud in the demo room) the amp didn't really break up. The guy I worked with said that that was a feature of the amp and that all archons still had pristine cleans even at high gain settings.
Going to 50w (and dropping the ohm load as required) made the master controls much more versatile and usable.
The bright switches are extremely powerful and going back and forth suddenly makes it sound like a blanket gets tossed over the amp till your ears adjust, with the switch off it sounds much more "vintagey". The bright switch on the lead channel reminded me of my roadster with my OD808 engaged.
this amp is much more forgiving on the clean channel while being on the bridge pickup.

i will go back tomorrow to play a little more but from the 50w drop alone it has me leaning in the direction of the archon 50.
 
So I just got back from messing around with a 100w Archon head with a 30th anni custom 24 played through a horizontal EVH 2x12 cab(tricked my wife saying I was going to look at sales lol) and here are my findings....all EQs were around noon.

The volume knob on each channel is acts much more like a gain knob than a volume knob.
On 100w the volume rolls on hard and fast, but is still more manageable than the RV25.
Even with the "volume" cranked on the clean channel and the master clean volume set to 7-8 o'clock (which was quite loud in the demo room) the amp didn't really break up. The guy I worked with said that that was a feature of the amp and that all archons still had pristine cleans even at high gain settings.
Going to 50w (and dropping the ohm load as required) made the master controls much more versatile and usable.
The bright switches are extremely powerful and going back and forth suddenly makes it sound like a blanket gets tossed over the amp till your ears adjust, with the switch off it sounds much more "vintagey". The bright switch on the lead channel reminded me of my roadster with my OD808 engaged.
this amp is much more forgiving on the clean channel while being on the bridge pickup.

i will go back tomorrow to play a little more but from the 50w drop alone it has me leaning in the direction of the archon 50.

There's nothing like playing through the amp to make the best choice! Good work.

Incidentally, from an audio definition perspective, volume and gain are the same thing, and the terms are interchangeable. I think the reason amp makers started labeling the preamp volume control "gain" was to differentiate it from the master volume (back when builders like Mesa and Dumble started making cascading gain amps in the early days of high gain designs). But really all it is is a preamp volume level control.
 
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