Why the nitro switch?

[Bogner]

I love the “new car smell” emanating from the case of a nitro’d guitar.

Nothing Like A Chloroform Zing To Get You Going...

 

[Tedder]

I saw a video on youtube a while back where someone took a Strat with poly on it, recorded it and has some one else record with it, and then had it refinished in poly. They then re-recorded the same parts with all the same setting (we have to trust them here) and then picked which recordings they though sounded the best. I think it was a 50/50. One picked the poly and the other the nitro.

I've recently started teaching myself how to build guitars, starting with kits. I spray nitro in the booth at home. I've had some cracks pop up from wet sanding and getting water into the wood where it's still unfinished and the swelling created the cracks. It was very easy for me to blush the finish out and drop fill/refinish the cracks and make them disappear. Sounds like Poly isn't so forgiving.

 

[David Oxford]

I don't think I've ever seen an explanation for why the change. Not trying to start a debate, just genuinely curious. Were people requesting it? Is there a supposed tonal improvement?

Modern formulations and equipment can get extremely thin and durable poly finishes so it seems, at least to me, like a side step for such a forward looking company.

PRS has made a number of puzzling changes lately. Nitro is higher maintenance, soft, reacts with everything, and has a negligible effect if any on tone. This in addition to the change to cheap vintage tuning keys, as well as molded cases with plastic latches, prs seems to have bought into the “older is better” as well as cost savings mindset. As a long time prs owner, I am not happy with the changes.

 

[László]

PRS has made a number of puzzling changes lately. Nitro is higher maintenance, soft, reacts with everything, and has a negligible effect if any on tone. This in addition to the change to cheap vintage tuning keys, as well as molded cases with plastic latches, prs seems to have bought into the “older is better” as well as cost savings mindset. As a long time prs owner, I am not happy with the changes.

I think your post was very calm and well written even though I disagree with much of it. But we’re all different and I’ll offer my two cents.

I’ve owned and played PRS since 1991, so I go back a ways too.

The PRS nitro (I’ve had it for 8-10 years on 4 PS models) is not soft. It’s surprisingly hard and stable! I was very pleasantly surprised, because I used to dislike nitro, until I had a couple of Collings acoustics with a similar nitro formulation.

I’ve also never loved the thick, gloopy look of poly, and thought the thinner V12 was an improvement. But the V12 was softer than my PS and Core nitro finishes.

True, you don’t want it to interact long term with a few materials, and you want the guitar to stay in the case for a little while coming in from the cold, but maintaining it is simple, and I’m pretty good about finish care (ok, fanatical).

As to the sound, it’s a little different. Subtle to be sure. But subtle things add up.

McCarty models, including many Singlecuts, made from 1994 on, except for a few years, were built with vintage style tuners with skinny shafts that honestly weren’t as nicely made as the new ones. So the vintage tuner thing is nothing new.

I just saw the molded accessory cases on the Sweetwater site. I didn’t know the new ones come in them, but if so, Hosanna!

I got a WL DGT last fall, and like all the other PRS Cores I’ve had (that would be a large number) it came in that frickin’ 19 pound wooden case. Sure the wood ones are classy, but if you go places with them, as I do to outside studios at times, they’re a PITA.

I hate dragging those cases around. So much so that I bought an expensive gig bag for it so I can actually take it and my PS guitars out without breaking my back.

Would I prefer to have had the guitar come in a molded case that shaves 9 or 10 pounds off the weight of the wood ones and not have to spend $300 on that gig bag? Bet!

I have a nice bass that came in an SKB molded case. The case weighs 10 pounds - that’s light enough that I can actually keep the bass in it when leaving the house.

Lots of folks here complain about the weight of the wood cases. Many say they put the case in a closet from Day One and use gig bags. So for me a plastic case would be great.

Like I said, we all have different points of view. I respect yours, but feel differently.

 

[Prs Mods too]

PRS has made a number of puzzling changes lately. Nitro is higher maintenance, soft, reacts with everything, and has a negligible effect if any on tone. This in addition to the change to cheap vintage tuning keys, as well as molded cases with plastic latches, prs seems to have bought into the “older is better” as well as cost savings mindset. As a long time prs owner, I am not happy with the changes.

Agree

 

[David Oxford]

I think your post was very calm and well written even though I disagree with much of it. But we’re all different and I’ll offer my two cents.

I’ve owned and played PRS since 1991, so I go back a ways too.

The PRS nitro (I’ve had it for 8-10 years on 4 PS models) is not soft. It’s surprisingly hard and stable! I was very pleasantly surprised, because I used to dislike nitro, until I had a couple of Collings acoustics with a similar nitro formulation.

I’ve also never loved the thick, gloopy look of poly, and thought the thinner V12 was an improvement. But the V12 was softer than my PS and Core nitro finishes.

True, you don’t want it to interact long term with a few materials, and you want the guitar to stay in the case for a little while coming in from the cold, but maintaining it is simple, and I’m pretty good about finish care (ok, fanatical).

As to the sound, it’s a little different. Subtle to be sure. But subtle things add up.

McCarty models, including many Singlecuts, made from 1994 on, except for a few years, were built with vintage style tuners with skinny shafts that honestly weren’t as nicely made as the new ones. So the vintage tuner thing is nothing new.

I just saw the molded accessory cases on the Sweetwater site. I didn’t know the new ones come in them, but if so, Hosanna!

I got a WL DGT last fall, and like all the other PRS Cores I’ve had (that would be a large number) it came in that frickin’ 19 pound wooden case. Sure the wood ones are classy, but if you go places with them, as I do to outside studios at times, they’re a PITA.

I hate dragging those cases around. So much so that I bought an expensive gig bag for it so I can actually take it and my PS guitars out without breaking my back.

Would I prefer to have had the guitar come in a molded case that shaves 9 or 10 pounds off the weight of the wood ones and not have to spend $300 on that gig bag? Bet!

I have a nice bass that came in an SKB molded case. The case weighs 10 pounds - that’s light enough that I can actually keep the bass in it when leaving the house.

Lots of folks here complain about the weight of the wood cases. Many say they put the case in a closet from Day One and use gig bags. So for me a plastic case would be great.

Like I said, we all have different points of view. I respect yours, but feel differently.

I can appreciate what you are saying sir. I think what concerns me most is the move away from a forward thinking modern guitar company to one that seeks to maintain nostalgia, which diminishes what set PRS apart from Gibson and Fender. Without that innovative spirit, you join the masses of companies seeking to continue to rest on achievements of the past rather than innovating into the future. I liked the vintage elements of PRS such as beautiful tops and classic designs, but perfected with low maintenance finishes, tuners that work beautifully and allow fast string changes, and cases built like tanks that while heavy, provide the durability and class a guitar of PRS' caliber demands. All this, while not compromising to save on the bottom line. From the fine folks Ive seen here and elsewhere, PRS buyers are less concerned about price and more concerned about getting the best. Therefore, price increases are expected in order to continue to receive the best in poorly performing economies. Thank you for sharing your input with me and others here.

 

[László]

I can appreciate what you are saying sir. I think what concerns me most is the move away from a forward thinking modern guitar company to one that seeks to maintain nostalgia, which diminishes what set PRS apart from Gibson and Fender. Without that innovative spirit, you join the masses of companies seeking to continue to rest on achievements of the past rather than innovating into the future. I liked the vintage elements of PRS such as beautiful tops and classic designs, but perfected with low maintenance finishes, tuners that work beautifully and allow fast string changes, and cases built like tanks that while heavy, provide the durability and class a guitar of PRS' caliber demands. All this, while not compromising to save on the bottom line. From the fine folks Ive seen here and elsewhere, PRS buyers are less concerned about price and more concerned about getting the best. Therefore, price increases are expected in order to continue to receive the best in poorly performing economies. Thank you for sharing your input with me and others here.

I’m definitely a little weird - I love the tone of vintage guitars, but not the ergonomics. I’m told Paul Smith also loves vintage guitar tone.

When I played my old 335 or ‘65 SG Special, I felt like I was driving a 1956 Buick.

I was delighted by my 1993 Artist II; I think it was PRS’ first foray into a more vintage tone, and one of the selling points was a thinner finish. Sounded great, though I wanted even more of a vintage PAF tone. I liked it more than my 1991 Custom.

Knowing a lot of younger (and older) session players via my ad music business, and recording artists through my son (who has a lot of touring, session and production experience with well known bands) I find that the way forward - at least with serious players I know - is not 1985 style guitars. Quite the opposite.

I think PRS has long been well aware of this, and it’s helped them grow their business to make instruments that serve their pro clientele.

But I don’t know everyone, and opinions differ, which I have no problem accepting.

Like you, I’m willing to pay the freight to get the very best gear. I always say I’d rather have one Core or PS model than a thousand SEs.

The only fly in the ointment is, find a room full of guitarists, and you find everyone’s idea of what’s best is different!

I can only speak for myself. For me, nitro = much better, vintage tone = much better, and please, great gods of tone, lighten my load when it comes to cases!

 

[JasonE]

I don't mind the switch to nitro. The ones I have with it seem to be as tough as my other PRS guitars. I don't get a sense that it is softer. I think I have had more issues with the V12 finish. The thing they changed that I am not fond of is the new phase III tuners. I am not a fan of those molded on buttons.

I am in the camp of liking and using the hard shell cases. I have a couple of Fender guitars in the molded cases. Those are pretty good protection and are lighter than the wood cases. I am a fan of those. The PRS ones look as good or better than the Fender cases. I think those will be a good thing. I am much more of a fan of the molded cases than a gig bag. We are way past the days of the 80's Fender molded cases that had tons of hinge and latch issues.

 

[Wyzard]

Much as I like its snug fit, my SS case feels like it's three or four times the weight of the guitar

I have Liteflite cases that I'll be trying next time it goes out with me.

 

[David Oxford]

I’m definitely a little weird - I love the tone of vintage guitars, but not the ergonomics. I’m told Paul Smith also loves vintage guitar tone.

When I played my old 335 or ‘65 SG Special, I felt like I was driving a 1956 Buick.

I was delighted by my 1993 Artist II; I think it was PRS’ first foray into a more vintage tone, and one of the selling points was a thinner finish. Sounded great, though I wanted even more of a vintage PAF tone. I liked it more than my 1991 Custom.

Knowing a lot of younger (and older) session players via my ad music business, and recording artists through my son (who has a lot of touring, session and production experience with well known bands) I find that the way forward - at least with serious players I know - is not 1985 style guitars. Quite the opposite.

I think PRS has long been well aware of this, and it’s helped them grow their business to make instruments that serve their pro clientele.

But I don’t know everyone, and opinions differ, which I have no problem accepting.

Like you, I’m willing to pay the freight to get the very best gear. I always say I’d rather have one Core or PS model than a thousand SEs.

The only fly in the ointment is, find a room full of guitarists, and you find everyone’s idea of what’s best is different!

I can only speak for myself. For me, nitro = much better, vintage tone = much better, and please, great gods of tone, lighten my load when it comes to cases!

Thank you again sir for your input. I have a good amount of similar experience to speak of, but divergent in a few ways. Mine is specifically in classical guitar (ASU grad Guitar performance, Phd Music theory in process) as well as playing in Jazz combos as well doing session work as requested. Ive also taught many students since about 96. As ive progressed as a player ive found that the tone that I have sought in electric guitars is found more in my hands and pickups than in the tone woods finishes or tuners. Ive watched this in my students as well. The students I've taught who seem to be able to apply the technique in the left and right hand most effectively also develop the ability to create and reproduce their desired tone fairly readily. Of course, proper gear is an absolute must. There was NO decent tone to be found in my Peavey Rage practice amp I had when I was 12. So if the guitar is of PRS level and it has the pickups that hit the tonal range you are seeking, along side capacitors that work effectively for that setup, then the finish and tuners will be so nominal in their effect on tone that it would be of little consequence. Its for that reason I say, stick with quality thin finishes that are low maintenance, and tuners that get you back up and running quickly and eliminate any chance of slippage for tuning stability, so you can get back to playing as quickly as possible. Certainly, not to diminish your opinion sir as these debates have carried on for decades with no end in sight, and its great because this is how we better our craft and our products. Thank you again for your response.

 

[László]

Much as I like its snug fit, my SS case feels like it's three or four times the weight of the guitar

At 18-20 pounds, it damn well is nearly three times the weight of the guitar!

For me, the theoretical advantage of a wooden case is that wood is a good temperature and humidity buffer. But depending on how the interior of a molded case is padded (type of foam), it might be just as good.

Thank you again sir for your input. I have a good amount of similar experience to speak of, but divergent in a few ways. Mine is specifically in classical guitar (ASU grad Guitar performance, Phd Music theory in process) as well as playing in Jazz combos as well doing session work as requested. Ive also taught many students since about 96. As ive progressed as a player ive found that the tone that I have sought in electric guitars is found more in my hands and pickups than in the tone woods finishes or tuners. Ive watched this in my students as well. The students I've taught who seem to be able to apply the technique in the left and right hand most effectively also develop the ability to create and reproduce their desired tone fairly readily. Of course, proper gear is an absolute must. There was NO decent tone to be found in my Peavey Rage practice amp I had when I was 12. So if the guitar is of PRS level and it has the pickups that hit the tonal range you are seeking, along side capacitors that work effectively for that setup, then the finish and tuners will be so nominal in their effect on tone that it would be of little consequence. Its for that reason I say, stick with quality thin finishes that are low maintenance, and tuners that get you back up and running quickly and eliminate any chance of slippage for tuning stability, so you can get back to playing as quickly as possible. Certainly, not to diminish your opinion sir as these debates have carried on for decades with no end in sight, and its great because this is how we better our craft and our products. Thank you again for your response.

You're so right that the topic has been beaten to death for a very long time. I'm about to do that again.

I'll agree that the hands, ears and brains that control the gear matter more than other factors. The hands produce a sound on the guitar, the ears pick it up, the brain interprets it and sends messages to the hands to do things to modulate and control that sound. It's a feedback loop.

However, a Les Paul doesn't sound the same as a PRS Custom 24, even with the same pickups, no matter who's playing it, and there are a lot of reasons why that have nothing to do with pickups or hands.

I'm far less involved in academia than you are currently, but I have guest lectured at the University of Michigan College of Music, Theater and Dance on a variety of music production topics quite a few times, despite my doctorate being in law (I left law and got into the music business 33 years ago, however).

We'll let the fact that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about be our little secret!

 

[Alnus Rubra]

See this is how a debate should be carried out on this forum.

 

[jamjam1]

I don't mind nitro. A little worried about my new blue guitar fading since PRS has a history of their blues fading.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Just keep it cased, safer that way.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

The only reason I like Nitro (not sure if PRS Nitro is the same) is how it wears. They just look cool worn. Poly don't look as cool worn.

 

[JasonE]

The only reason I like Nitro (not sure if PRS Nitro is the same) is how it wears. They just look cool worn. Poly don't look as cool worn.

It depends on which nitro it is. They have one that is called Vintage Nitro that hey have put on some special run private stock guitars that will check over time. They had a couple of special runs back in the 2009 / 2010 years that was supposed to wear faster too. I have one of those but haven't put enough play time on it to find out if it wears faster. I take really good care of my guitars so it would probably take a lot of hours to get it there. I am not sure that the one they are spraying on the US made guitars will do that or wear fast.

 

[David Oxford]

At 18-20 pounds, it damn well is nearly three times the weight of the guitar!

For me, the theoretical advantage of a wooden case is that wood is a good temperature and humidity buffer. But depending on how the interior of a molded case is padded (type of foam), it might be just as good.

You're so right that the topic has been beaten to death for a very long time. I'm about to do that again.

I'll agree that the hands, ears and brains that control the gear matter more than other factors. The hands produce a sound on the guitar, the ears pick it up, the brain interprets it and sends messages to the hands to do things to modulate and control that sound. It's a feedback loop.

However, a Les Paul doesn't sound the same as a PRS Custom 24, even with the same pickups, no matter who's playing it, and there are a lot of reasons why that have nothing to do with pickups or hands.

I'm far less involved in academia than you are currently, but I have guest lectured at the University of Michigan College of Music, Theater and Dance on a variety of music production topics quite a few times, despite my doctorate being in law (I left law and got into the music business 33 years ago, however).

We'll let the fact that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about be our little secret!

Thank you again my friend for the reply. I was considering what you said about the LP vs the CU24. I agree completely with you on that but I respectfully disagree that its a fair comparison. The CU24 will have a pickup orientation that is closer together than the LP. But, I did give some thought to a hypothetical comparison that would be interesting. I think the closest comparison I could think of would be an SC245 in Nitro vs an older version in V12 with a side by side sound comparison after moving the entire electronics harness from one to the other. Imperfect and not scientific, but indeed an interesting test. Of course, one could argue a variety of other tone affecting factors, but it would be interesting what subtleties if any could be gleaned from such a test. Honestly it probably would only prove to further endure this debate. Curious your thoughts sir, and thank you again for your time and response.

 

[László]

Thank you again my friend for the reply. I was considering what you said about the LP vs the CU24. I agree completely with you on that but I respectfully disagree that its a fair comparison. The CU24 will have a pickup orientation that is closer together than the LP. But, I did give some thought to a hypothetical comparison that would be interesting. I think the closest comparison I could think of would be an SC245 in Nitro vs an older version in V12 with a side by side sound comparison after moving the entire electronics harness from one to the other. Imperfect and not scientific, but indeed an interesting test. Of course, one could argue a variety of other tone affecting factors, but it would be interesting what subtleties if any could be gleaned from such a test. Honestly it probably would only prove to further endure this debate. Curious your thoughts sir, and thank you again for your time and response.

To your point that it's mainly the player's hands and pickups, I was saying that other factors are plainly at work - i.e., the distance between pickups matter, the scale length matters, the wood varieties matter, etc.

You're right, however, if you wanted to compare nitro vs a different finish, your comparison is a better test!

I realize this can be an endless debate, but I see it more as a friendly discussion about our tone discoveries, our perceptions, and our preferences. It's something I like to talk about with friends, and disagreement is OK!