Tube Noise Question for Les (others may be interested)

[Frank McNerney]

Les - may I quote you? " To those who claim tubes are inherently a noisy problem, I say you probably have no idea WTF you're doing. The record industry is still using tube gear in mastering - units such as the Fairchild, the SPL Iron, the Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, the Knif Soma, the Bettermaker, and many, many others are in use every single day all over the world. Yes, mastering, where noise floor counts as a VERY big deal! "

I confess - I don't know WTF I'm doing. In my defense - I'n new to this whole thing. Guitar thing that is - Not life itself - Far from it.

SO. - I always thought (assumed) that tube amps hissed, etc as a inherent part of there nature. In fact I've asked around and it seems to be a widespread opinion. So - I have hiss. - it doesn't bother me when I'm playing but when I stop to think - it annoys the crap out of me.

I would love to know how to eliminate that. - or at least quiet it down

PS. My Amp is a Ashen 8 watt. Based on a Princeton chassis. Hand-wired, 2 power tubes. (I removed one) and two preamp tubes. Controls are: Gain, High, Low, and Reverb. - that's it - very simple

Thanks Les - for all of the amp wisdom. !!!!

 

[László]

Les - may I quote you? " To those who claim tubes are inherently a noisy problem, I say you probably have no idea WTF you're doing. The record industry is still using tube gear in mastering - units such as the Fairchild, the SPL Iron, the Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor, the Knif Soma, the Bettermaker, and many, many others are in use every single day all over the world. Yes, mastering, where noise floor counts as a VERY big deal! "

I confess - I don't know WTF I'm doing. In my defense - I'n new to this whole thing. Guitar thing that is - Not life itself - Far from it.

SO. - I always thought (assumed) that tube amps hissed, etc as a inherent part of there nature. In fact I've asked around and it seems to be a widespread opinion. So - I have hiss. - it doesn't bother me when I'm playing but when I stop to think - it annoys the crap out of me.

I would love to know how to eliminate that. - or at least quiet it down

PS. My Amp is a Ashen 8 watt. Based on a Princeton chassis. Hand-wired, 2 power tubes. (I removed one) and two preamp tubes. Controls are: Gain, High, Low, and Reverb. - that's it - very simple

Thanks Les - for all of the amp wisdom. !!!!

Part of it is probably the design of the amp, but I have no hiss, either with my PRS amps or Mesas.

The first thing to do is disconnect the guitar and the pedals, and turn the amps on without any other connections to see where the hiss is coming from. Digital pedals can hiss like crazy if the levels aren't properly set. So can any number of analog pedals.

Have you tried doing that?

Also, crappy tubes hiss.

Hard to know what the issues are without more details. Feel free to PM me to get into any detail you'd like!

 

[RickP]

Les is the man, he’ll get you straightened out!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

(I removed one)

Why?

 

[Toolmaster Of Brainerd]

Hard to know what the issues are without more details. Feel free to PM me to get into any detail you'd like!

Keep the 'getting into details' here! This kind of stuff is really helpful for people like me to read, even if it's not specific to my situation.

After you recently said you have so little noise that you can't tell if your amps are on from the noise alone, I'm wanting to chase down the noise on my amp and pedalboard. All your nuggets of wisdom are helpful.

 

[dmatthews]

Tube E
Or not Tube E
That is the...
Oh shut up Dave.

 

[Frank McNerney]

Hi Les
Thanks for the offer. - rather than PM can we keep it here? I'm not the only one interested in what you have to say.

I don't have any pedals, other than a looper I only connect occasionally. The amp itself comes with a foot switch to turn reverb on and off. I don't use that. When I unplug the guitar and stick my head in the back to listen closely it seems like the noise is coming from the tubes. It's hard to tell exactly but that's my best guess. The noise level is variable and at it's worst it's not terrible - it's just that if it were silent that would be fantastic.

I don't know what the tubes are exactly. - I'm trying to find out but there aren't any markings on the tube and so far I have no response from Ashen. In any event they are Russian tubes.

Here is a repeat of the info above: My Amp is an Ashen 8 watt. Based on a Princeton chassis. Hand-wired, 2 power tubes. (I removed one) and two preamp tubes. Controls are: Gain, High, Low, and Reverb.

Thanks again Les !! You're the man !!!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

My Amp is an Ashen 8 watt. Based on a Princeton chassis. Hand-wired, 2 power tubes. (I removed one) and two preamp tubes. Controls are: Gain, High, Low, and Reverb.

1- Why did you remove one tube?
2- Are you sure it’s 8 watts, and not 10?

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Ok, I'm not sure if only Les is allowed to answer, or if I'm just talking to myself. Just in case it's the latter, here goes...

First: According to the source, the 8 watt amps don't have reverb, only the 10 watt amps do. I've been aware of these amps since they first came out and while I can't "swear" that there have been no changes to this, it appears to be exactly as it was. The 8 watt amps have only Gain, High and Low controls. The 10 watt amps, have have those three plus reverb. So, I think your amp might be 10, but it is possible they changed this... but I don't think so.

The 8 watt amp has 2 Russian 6N6P dual triode power tubes, and 2 6N2P preamp tubes.

The 10 watt amps have 2 6N14P Russian power tubes, which are EL84 equivalents) and 2 6N2P preamps tubes.

IF the tubes are the issue, replacements are available.

These amps claim to be Class A, but clearly are not single ended.

So, IMO, the very first thing to do if you are having hiss issues is put the other power tube back in, for two reasons. One, listen to the amp, not the marketing. 8 vs 5, or 10 vs. 5 is not a "stage vs. home" thing. The amp will sound different, and probably better, with both power tubes in, and it won't be much louder... and can be compensated for with the volume knob. Two, if you know anything about designs that allow you to do this, there should be less noise with both power tubes in.

There is not much "detailed" info out there about these amps. They are wired point to point. IF the noise is related to the circuit itself, there won't be much you can do about it, shy of taking it to an expert and having him chase the circuit down and see if anything can be moved to reduce noise. One issue with true "point to point" wiring is that if certain things are too close to other certain things, you may not be able to just move a wire 1" and remove the noise.

I haven't seen or done a parts analysis on this amp, so it could well be that they are just using parts that contribute to the noise. There again, an amp tech could replace some with better parts to reduce circuit noise IF that's the issue. Things like carbon comp resistors, etc contribute noise, especially in certain spots in a circuit.

I'll stop here in case you aren't reading this. Or, need Les to say some of it instead.

 

[Frank McNerney]

DTR: As far as I'm concerned I would like to hear from anyone and everyone. Thanks ! A lot what you wrote is a little over my head - but it's good to know what the tubes are if I ever decide to replace them (or need to).

You are right, (and I am wrong) about this specific amp. it is 10 watts, not 8 Watts, Everything is as you described.

I took out the power tube to see if I could get some distortion at a lower volume - I didn't need the volume in my bedroom. AND
I was also hoping that change might affect the hiss

- But honesty - I don't hear much difference between 1 tube vs. 2 tubes in any way (hiss, overall volume, or distortion. I find this confusing but don't know enough to say more than that. I'll put the tube back and see if anything happens.

As far as getting it repaired or looked at by a pro. So far it isn't bothering me enough to go there. Like I said earlier - when I'm playing it's irrelevant and when I'm sitting next to it the noise varies from occasionally almost silent to occasionally nasty - most of the time it's in between those two.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Like I said earlier - when I'm playing it's irrelevant and when I'm sitting next to it the noise varies from occasionally almost silent to occasionally nasty - most of the time it's in between those two.

Ok, that’s helpful. Knowing it varies in level from time to time points to a good chance that it is some other variable, so that’s good.

What guitar are you playing? Does moving around with the guitar affect this noise level? Are you sitting close to a computer monitor or other “noise source?” This is actually good news that it varies. That means we can probably troubleshoot and find the cause. And, are you using a good guitar cable?

 

[Frank McNerney]

DTR. Thanks again. !!! I'm usually playing a Santana III. Thanks for asking. I also have a McCarty and a SE hollowbody. I use a PRS cable.

I don't notice a noise level change with movement.

Not sure what qualifies as noise source. I almost always have a laptop turned on - on the desk about 5 feet from there amp. There is also a lamp about two feet from the amp. Usually have a phone on the desk charging - right next to lamp. Also near the lamp is my granddaughters electric drum kit with a Stagg speaker both nof those are always plugged in but never on when I'm in here. Same with a Yamaha keyboard about 8 feet away t

I can rearrange all this stuff pretty easy if it may help.

By the way - as you can see my name is Frank. My real name is Francis but if any of you psycho's call me Francis I'll kill ya.

 

[Frank McNerney]

I guess I should mention about the variableness. - I'll be sitting here - nothing changes with noise sources (nothing turned on or off, etc). and it changes - either for better or worse

Also - it's always a bit noisy when I first turn it on and it's warming up.

 

[RonHal]

Ok, I'm not sure if only Les is allowed to answer, or if I'm just talking to myself. Just in case it's the latter, here goes...

First: According to the source, the 8 watt amps don't have reverb, only the 10 watt amps do. I've been aware of these amps since they first came out and while I can't "swear" that there have been no changes to this, it appears to be exactly as it was. The 8 watt amps have only Gain, High and Low controls. The 10 watt amps, have have those three plus reverb. So, I think your amp might be 10, but it is possible they changed this... but I don't think so.

The 8 watt amp has 2 Russian 6N6P dual triode power tubes, and 2 6N2P preamp tubes.

The 10 watt amps have 2 6N14P Russian power tubes, which are EL84 equivalents) and 2 6N2P preamps tubes.

IF the tubes are the issue, replacements are available.

These amps claim to be Class A, but clearly are not single ended.

So, IMO, the very first thing to do if you are having hiss issues is put the other power tube back in, for two reasons. One, listen to the amp, not the marketing. 8 vs 5, or 10 vs. 5 is not a "stage vs. home" thing. The amp will sound different, and probably better, with both power tubes in, and it won't be much louder... and can be compensated for with the volume knob. Two, if you know anything about designs that allow you to do this, there should be less noise with both power tubes in.

There is not much "detailed" info out there about these amps. They are wired point to point. IF the noise is related to the circuit itself, there won't be much you can do about it, shy of taking it to an expert and having him chase the circuit down and see if anything can be moved to reduce noise. One issue with true "point to point" wiring is that if certain things are too close to other certain things, you may not be able to just move a wire 1" and remove the noise.

I haven't seen or done a parts analysis on this amp, so it could well be that they are just using parts that contribute to the noise. There again, an amp tech could replace some with better parts to reduce circuit noise IF that's the issue. Things like carbon comp resistors, etc contribute noise, especially in certain spots in a circuit.

I'll stop here in case you aren't reading this. Or, need Les to say some of it instead.

As an owner of a low power class A amp, let me add my thoughts. Source of noise? Tubes, circuit layout, design, bad component. Remedies, new tubes, DC heaters, Negative feedback, new component. Remedies require a tech to do. This amp could be a series Class A amp, which would explain why removing one tube and it still worked. A guess on my part. I had an amp which had a frying bacon sound. Bad resistor.
A schematic would help.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

A guess on my part.

Yes, there isn't much, uh... "real" information out there on these. At least not, that I have seen.

 

[László]

Hi Les
Thanks for the offer. - rather than PM can we keep it here? I'm not the only one interested in what you have to say.

I don't have any pedals, other than a looper I only connect occasionally. The amp itself comes with a foot switch to turn reverb on and off. I don't use that. When I unplug the guitar and stick my head in the back to listen closely it seems like the noise is coming from the tubes. It's hard to tell exactly but that's my best guess. The noise level is variable and at it's worst it's not terrible - it's just that if it were silent that would be fantastic.

I don't know what the tubes are exactly. - I'm trying to find out but there aren't any markings on the tube and so far I have no response from Ashen. In any event they are Russian tubes.

Here is a repeat of the info above: My Amp is an Ashen 8 watt. Based on a Princeton chassis. Hand-wired, 2 power tubes. (I removed one) and two preamp tubes. Controls are: Gain, High, Low, and Reverb.

Thanks again Les !! You're the man !!!

I'm not familiar with the amp, and am therefore useless. Utterly useless.

I buy and install NOS tubes for my amps. I use a $700 filtered power supply.

Would that help your situation? I have no idea!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I guess I should mention about the variableness. - I'll be sitting here - nothing changes with noise sources (nothing turned on or off, etc). and it changes - either for better or worse

Also - it's always a bit noisy when I first turn it on and it's warming up.

Ok, this helps. Could be line noise… sometimes a furnace, fridge, etc., that kicks on can do this. Next exercise, see if you recognize anything like that that cycles, kicking on or off when noise level changes. And, it may not even be something in your home, but see if you find anything.

 

[Frank McNerney]

Thanks. I'll see what I can notice

 

[ViperDoc]

I didn’t read the thread…

Hiss starts with your wall AC and it’s ground. If the supply AC voltage is clean, good. Is it coming in at the rated AC input voltage for your circuit? This is usually designated on the back of the amp, controlled by the power transformer primary winding. The amp chassis lead dress, grounding and layout can affect hiss significantly. Are the AC and DC parts of the circuit separated? Do plate and cathode preamp wires cross at anything but a 90 degree angle? Are your caps in good shape? Is your grounding scheme appropriate and well installed? Do you have any cold solder joints? Is the power supply supplying the correct voltages for your power tubes?

Ok, now judge your tubes.