Preventing Blue Fading

I have recently ordered a PRS Custom 24 Wood Library 10 Top, Blue Fade. Look how it has faded over 1 year in the store... Insane!!!
This should really not happen to such expensive guitars...

previewPRSBlueFade.jpg
 
Ciboria said:
So you are saying I should be happy with how I received the guitar? As I ordered it on their website like the 'brand new' picture...
Click to expand...
No, not saying you should be happy. I’d be looking for a big discount, or partial refund, from the dealer.
I was saying that some things are beyond control. Wood is natural, the are organic. They react to light. All you can do is try to mitigate it.
 
Ciboria said:
So you are saying I should be happy with how I received the guitar? As I ordered it on their website like the 'brand new' picture...
Click to expand...
Definitely fair game to be unhappy with the guitar not matching the photos. On that, I would support sending it back.

Somebody will value it for what it is now and for them the original colour is irrelevant.
 
If that was sold to you on the basis of the top photo, then that was total misrepresentation.

I would not be happy at all.

Welcome to the forum and sorry for you that this is how you received your new guitar.

Hopefully the dealer does the right thing.
 
Ciboria said:
I have recently ordered a PRS Custom 24 Wood Library 10 Top, Blue Fade. Look how it has faded over 1 year in the store... Insane!!!
This should really not happen to such expensive guitars...

previewPRSBlueFade.jpg
Click to expand...
I hope you get some recompense from the dealer as its very mis represented in the first image.

That said, I think the actual guitar looks cool.
 
I agree the guitar does not look bad at all. But it's not at all the color they sold it for... For me, the picture, as on their website "Blue Fade" is in reality something completely different. So indeed, they should have put up a different picture. Now they sold me, this very expensive guitar... and I was expecting something completely different.

In my post, I said I ordered it, and apparently, it faded into this completely different guitar, just because of the light in their shop...
 
Still hot, but not even close to what they eete listing. Have seen that before in shops...

Return it.
 
As I understand it, fading of organic dyes is a chemical reaction, like photosynthesis, or cooking food. Can't be undone, and I'd imagine, isn't easy to prevent. I honestly don't know how much sunlight is necessary to trigger a noticeable chemical reaction in the dyes that are in the stains PRS uses. I'd guess it's more than an afternoon playing, but then I've gotten suntanned in a day, and that's a chemical process just like dyes fading. So, anyone's guess.

It's been mentioned that there are UV-resistant car finishes. The UV-resistant clear coats on cars are designed to prevent photo-oxidation, in other words, dulling of the paint. Oxidation is a different process than photosynthesis; think rust. Whether these finishes would prevent the chemical reactions that cause fading, I don't know.

As far as I know, UV finishes are poly and/or ceramic finishes. I have absolutely no idea whether they have an effect on the tone of the instruments, so I'm not making any claims that they do. Maybe so, maybe not. Finishes with UV protection require at least 2 mils of thickness, or they don't work at all, and cars usually have around 5 mils, according to what I've read (I claim no expertise on this stuff, I just read a lot).

What I can do is explain why the stains tend to fade, but paints don't:

Paints and inorganic stains are made with pigment. Pigment consists of finely crushed minerals. It needs a solvent to further refine the tiny crystals, and it needs a binder (usually oil based). As a result of the binder, the stain sits on top of surface of the wood, hiding the grain. It isn't absorbed well by the wood cells.

There is no getting around this, it's the nature of the beast.

Minerals (as opposed to organic materials) are used to create things like metals, fired clay, etc. This is why you cook with a metal frying pan, or eat from fired clay dishware - minerals tend not to get involved in the chemical reaction of making food. This is why you don't use organic materials, like wood, to make frying pans.

This is also why the metallic blue on the painted guitars in one of the pics above isn't going to noticeably fade much. If there's a chemical reaction in the crushed minerals used in the paint causing fading, it's going to be pretty minimal. They're more likely to dull in the sun from oxidation breaking down the paint, than fade the way organic dyes tend to.

Dyes are made with organic materials and chemicals that animals and plants make. This is where the photosensitivity comes in. This is different from dulling from oxidation, which is a different process.

Dyes are water-based, using organic materials that dissolve in water. Wood absorbs water-based dyes much better than minerals with oil based binders.

Therefore more of the wood grain shows through when a stain uses organic dyes. Thus you get the beautiful PRS finishes where the beauty of the wood shows through.

If you want to see wood grain you have to use water-based organic dyes in the stains. If there's a drawback, it's that organic stains are made with materials that when exposed to light, react with it chemically.

There's no getting around this with current stain technology. It's also the nature of the beast.

For me, the most important thing is a great sounding guitar. Based on personal experience with PRS' nitro finishes for the past 9 years, I prefer the nitro finishes to the many earlier PRSes I had with poly.

Obviously, they don't have UV protection. For me, that's a worthwhile trade-off. For others it might not be.

Blue dyes are made with stuff like indigo, a plant, sometimes with cabbage leaves, etc. The stuff reacts with light pretty strongly, because it's supposed to - it's a plant.

If I played outdoors, I probably wouldn't play one of my blue PRSes if I didn't want them to fade. Actually, I never planned to buy blue PRSes, it just kinda happened. I prefer other colors.

I hope this discussion helps decipher the mystery of the fading.
 
Last edited:
LSchefman said:
As I understand it, fading of organic dyes is a chemical reaction, like photosynthesis, or cooking food. Can't be undone, and I'd imagine, isn't easy to prevent. I honestly don't know how much sunlight is necessary to trigger a noticeable chemical reaction in the dyes that are in the stains PRS uses. I'd guess it's more than an afternoon playing, but then I've gotten suntanned in a day, and that's a chemical process just like dyes fading. So, anyone's guess.

It's been mentioned that there are UV-resistant car finishes. The UV-resistant clear coats on cars are designed to prevent photo-oxidation, in other words, dulling of the paint. Oxidation is a different process than photosynthesis; think rust. Whether these finishes would prevent the chemical reactions that cause fading, I don't know.

As far as I know, UV finishes are poly and/or ceramic finishes. I have absolutely no idea whether they have an effect on the tone of the instruments, so I'm not making any claims that they do. Maybe so, maybe not. Finishes with UV protection require at least 2 mils of thickness, or they don't work at all, and cars usually have around 5 mils, according to what I've read (I claim no expertise on this stuff, I just read a lot).

What I can do is explain why the stains tend to fade, but paints don't:

Paints and inorganic stains are made with pigment. Pigment consists of finely crushed minerals. It needs a solvent to further refine the tiny crystals, and it needs a binder (usually oil based). As a result of the binder, the stain sits on top of surface of the wood, hiding the grain. It isn't absorbed well by the wood cells.

There is no getting around this, it's the nature of the beast.

Minerals (as opposed to organic materials) are used to create things like metals, fired clay, etc. This is why you cook with a metal frying pan, or eat from fired clay dishware - minerals tend not to get involved in the chemical reaction of making food. This is why you don't use organic materials, like wood, to make frying pans.

This is also why the metallic blue on the painted guitars in one of the pics above isn't going to noticeably fade much. If there's a chemical reaction in the crushed minerals used in the paint causing fading, it's going to be pretty minimal. They're more likely to dull in the sun from oxidation breaking down the paint, than fade the way organic dyes tend to.

Dyes are made with organic materials and chemicals that animals and plants make. This is where the photosensitivity comes in. This is different from dulling from oxidation, which is a different process.

Dyes are water-based, using organic materials that work with water. Wood absorbs water-based dyes much better than minerals with oil based binders.

Therefore more of the wood grain shows through when a stain uses organic dyes. Thus you get the beautiful PRS finishes where the beauty of the wood shows through.

If you want to see wood grain you have to use water-based organic dyes in the stains. If there's a drawback, it's that organic stains are made with materials that when exposed to light, react with it chemically.

There's no getting around this with current stain technology. It's also the nature of the beast.

For me, the most important thing is a great sounding guitar. Based on personal experience with PRS' nitro finishes for the past 9 years, I prefer the nitro finishes to the earlier PRSes I had with poly.

Obviously, they don't have UV protection. For me, that's a worthwhile trade-off. For others it might not be.

I hope this discussion helps decipher the mystery of the fading.
Click to expand...

Great post as always Les.

Interesting information (well for me) is that from a PRS vid that I watched recently, they used alcohol, water and oil based stains on the same finish.

From memory, I believe it was in that order.

Your mantra of casing your instruments after use is something that I have now done for the last few years.

Quite clearly the OP’s guitar was unlikely to have been cased for a year in the store.
 
Alnus Rubra said:
Great post as always Les.

Interesting information (well for me) is that from a PRS vid that I watched recently, they used alcohol, water and oil based stains on the same finish.

From memory, I believe it was in that order.

Your mantra of casing your instruments after use is something that I have now done for the last few years.

Quite clearly the OP’s guitar was unlikely to have been cased for a year in the store.
Click to expand...
Some PRS stains are wiped on and wiped off quickly, more or less to have another hue like white sit here and there in the grooves of the grain, instead of to get full coverage, and others are single shades that soak more deeply and uniformly into the wood.

The processes are interesting, to be sure.
 
LSchefman said:
Some PRS stains are wiped on and wiped off quickly, more or less to have another hue like white sit here and there in the grooves of the grain, instead of to get full coverage, and others are single shades that soak more deeply and uniformly into the wood.

The processes are interesting, to be sure.
Click to expand...

I know, I find them fascinating.

The one I’m referring to was a dark stain (alcohol based) to start, allowed to dry for about 15 mins and then sanded back. A water based colour over that and then an oil based stain at the edges.

I think this is the vid -


I hope this isn’t too raw, but I believe this is the process the OP’s guitar would have gone through -


The skill of the guys and gals is out of this world. They make it look so easy. Believe me it isn’t. I know (wink wink).
 
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