DG 30 With Mesa Cab Clone and DG Speaker Cab - Quickie Comparison Demo

[Bluesboy998]

Did Les say something

 

[László]

Sorry guys, I was busy trying to see where that spider who farted in the next room was hiding.

 

[aristotle]

The success of a band can be directly attributed to their ability to scale their mix.

Actually, around these parts, a band's success (a coverband's anyway) is about one thing, and one thing only... Butts in seats. I don't have a problem with that...but club owners couldn't care less about how loud, or soft, or good, or bad a band is except to the extent it impacts butts in seats. Mix and volume control of course contributes to butts in seats, but song choice and what kind of show you put on seems to be a stronger influence...

It's the head-to-head frequency competition with the guitars that's been such a challenge.

I definitely agree with that for what I do. Things got a bunch better for us ironically when the other guitar player was replaced. Ironically because the last guy (who sang and exclusively played rhythm) didn't care at all about his setup and rig. I handled that completely. I set him up with amps and pedals to suit my tastes and set his volume also. He just happily played away (and sang unbelievably well). We always had issues with how his guitar and mine blended and worked together, both volume and tone.

New guy plays more leads than I do (he's way better than I am) and completely is in charge of his tone and volume. He is in love with his dreadful POD thingy and always uses more gain and effects than I think is called for in a song. But darned if it doesn't play better together with my sound. Go figure.

Then go old-school and put the PA on the vocals, only.

That's what I've settled back to recently. It's a bummer because sound varies way too much as a function of off-axis angle...but oh well.

 

[Boogie]

Actually, around these parts, a band's success (a coverband's anyway) is about one thing, and one thing only... Butts in seats. I don't have a problem with that...but club owners couldn't care less about how loud, or soft, or good, or bad a band is except to the extent it impacts butts in seats. Mix and volume control of course contributes to butts in seats, but song choice and what kind of show you put on seems to be a stronger influence...

Oh how I wish the this market possessed the insight to use logic and common sense. Instead, it's micromanagement and perverted marketing. Granted, I believe this is relative to the caliber of venues (which points to our weakness in band management/booking), but the real bottom line is, as you say, butts in seats. But if the venue hires you on a known poisonous night, is a low turn out your failure or theirs? If no one is there to see a good show with great sound, what does it matter? And for a local bar band, you can't expect their following/regulars/family to travel over an hour to a crap-hole bar in BF Egypt...more than once. Heck, even Mrs. B refuses to go to any more shows if we continue to play the same places, and my friends politely claim to be "busy" (and come on, who doesn't want to see drunk chicks shed clothing, scream and fall over the monitors?). Honestly, we need to be able to trust that the venue has some business wherewithal and to trust us to hold up our end of the deal. Trust is a rare commodity. In this town, as we've been told several times, being an excellent band with a good show isn't enough. Our weakness is management.

(We were once accused - more accurately, screamed and yelled - of having a horrible night, running off the patrons that were there, only to find out this yahoo wasn't even there that night, nor asked any of the staff. They reviewed the security footage for the wrong night and drew their conclusion based on empty tables in he front row. Classy. Then here was another place at was pissed that we played to an empty bar after a huge fight brought half the police department.:box

We've been running vox/drums only thru the PA for 4 years and I believe we've done ok. There have been times where we've been too loud, but never to the level of insanity. If the PA were better quality and more flexible, those times would have been fewer. And having a good set of ears out front should have made all he difference in the world.

 

[László]

We've been running vox/drums only thru the PA for 4 years and I believe we've done ok. There have been times where we've been too loud, but never to the level of insanity. If the PA were better quality and more flexible, those times would have been fewer. And having a good set of ears out front should have made all he difference in the world.

I don't understand the need to run drums through a PA if you're not running everything else through it. Drums ought to be loud enough without sound reinforcement, and running drums through a PA not only masks and therefore obscures the clarity of vocals, it forces all the other instruments to turn up.

Respectfully, this makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Should I guess from this that the PA belongs to the drummer, who really, really likes hearing himself play?

 

[Boogie]

I don't understand the need to run drums through a PA if you're not running everything else through it. Drums ought to be loud enough without sound reinforcement, and running drums through a PA not only masks and therefore obscures the clarity of vocals, it forces all the other instruments to turn up.

Respectfully, this makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Should I guess from this that the PA belongs to the drummer, who really, really likes hearing himself play?

Boy, I did my best impression of a train ride in Philadelphia, eh? Too soon? Sorry.

Only the the snare and kick are mic'ed with idea that the subs would give more impact and the snare could be tuned to the room better. While it's not my idea, I understand the concept. As for the sacrifice of the vox, I totally agree. And, like you said, the result is increased volume.

While the PA is technically owned by the drummer, his son, the vocalist, runs it, managed the band and booked the gigs. It's 'his way or the highway'. There's a reoccurring theme here, as you can tell.

Back to topic...I sincerely believe that a cab sim system can help with live sound support when the venue dictates or if recording. But expecting it to control high volume for a bar band is unrealistic...it should help bolster too low volume, IMO.

 

[László]

While the PA is technically owned by the drummer, his son, the vocalist, runs it, managed the band and booked the gigs. It's 'his way or the highway'. There's a reoccurring theme here, as you can tell.

I could tell as soon as you said that the drummer sticks his kick and snare into the PA.

That can only happen if the drummer owns the PA.

Makes me laugh. And the best part is that one of his excuses is that has to tune the snare with the help of the PA because as we all know, his frickin' drum key can't do it.

Mwahahahaha. Oh boy. Heh.

Well, at least the bass player doesn't own the PA. So there's something to be thankful for.

 

[aristotle]

At some of the clubs we play, particularly ones with a younger crowd, and ones where dancing is big, going loud with bass and drums through the PA is actually the ticket. Not so much from a sonic bliss perspective, but people seem to want to "feel" it. Those clubs almost always have a full sound system, but I always use our own. In that case, I use separate QSC KW152's on stands dedicated to the vocals. That seems to help. Also of help in those louder situations in terms of our sanity is that vocal monitor mixes run through separate graphic equalizers so that we can crank the monitor vocals loud enough without getting feedback. As a rule of thumb, if we go on 10:30PM or later, it's a gig with drums and bass through the PA. That's just how these clubs roll around here. We only do a couple of those a year though.

 

[László]

At some of the clubs we play, particularly ones with a younger crowd, and ones where dancing is big, going loud with bass and drums through the PA is actually the ticket. Not so much from a sonic bliss perspective, but people seem to want to "feel" it. Those clubs almost always have a full sound system, but I always use our own. In that case, I use separate QSC KW152's on stands dedicated to the vocals. That seems to help. Also of help in those louder situations in terms of our sanity is that vocal monitor mixes run through separate graphic equalizers so that we can crank the monitor vocals loud enough without getting feedback. As a rule of thumb, if we go on 10:30PM or later, it's a gig with drums and bass through the PA. That's just how these clubs roll around here. We only do a couple of those a year though.

Never had an issue with people not dancing when we played, not running kick, snare or bass through PA. I suppose people gotta do what people gotta do, but I think it makes for bad audio.

 

[Boogie]

I could tell as soon as you said that the drummer sticks his kick and snare into the PA.

That can only happen if the drummer owns the PA.

No, you're missing my point...it's not the drummer dictating this, but the vocalist. The drummer is the most even-keel, grounded, checked-ego drummer I've ever met. He couldn't give 2 turds if his kit was mic'ed. The vocalist calls the shots and we all just stand back and let it happen. Too bad this "kid" couldn't find his audio engineer backside with both hands and a Sherpa guide. That's what's so frustrating...PA is his responsibility and booking was his responsibility. Are you starting to see the common denominator here? *gigantic sigh*

... loud with bass and drums through the PA is actually the ticket. Not so much from a sonic bliss perspective, but people seem to want to "feel" it. .... We only do a couple of those a year though.

Us too, about twice a year. Both are annual outdoor private parties and these people love the wall of sound. But it's not enough income to justify upgrading the PA (though I've hinted at it a million times) so we just push what we have to the limit. I take the 2x12 and push the amp to >75%. It's the only time I can't stand directly in front of the cab without hearing protection. IEMs are mandatory...or ear plugs. But we project out to a beach/lake and the sound drops off very quickly. They love it and we have a blast.

 

[László]

No, you're missing my point...it's not the drummer dictating this, but the vocalist. The drummer is the most even-keel, grounded, checked-ego drummer I've ever met. He couldn't give 2 turds if his kit was mic'ed. The vocalist calls the shots and we all just stand back and let it happen. Too bad this "kid" couldn't find his audio engineer backside with both hands and a Sherpa guide. That's what's so frustrating...PA is his responsibility and booking was his responsibility. Are you starting to see the common denominator here? *gigantic sigh*

Yup, I get it.

Though it's awfully nice that a father and son can be in the same band!

I'm pretty sure my son will never in a million years allow me on the same stage as him.

 

[Boogie]

Though it's awfully nice that a father and son can be in the same band!

I'm pretty sure my son will never in a million years allow me on the same stage as him.

Playing on stage with both of my boys was possibly the best day of my life. Even if you're playing at an open mic night, you should seize the opportunity. Highly recommended, but it might choke you up a bit.

 

[Texas_minor_blues]

Yup, I get it.

Though it's awfully nice that a father and son can be in the same band!

I'm pretty sure my son will never in a million years allow me on the same stage as him.

I'll jam with you Les! you can call me son every time I pick your brain on stuff haha

 

[László]

Playing on stage with both of my boys was possibly the best day of my life. Even if you're playing at an open mic night, you should seize the opportunity. Highly recommended, but it might choke you up a bit.

Um....the band that my son tours with doesn't exactly do open mic nights....

So I have this dream, and the band announces, "And now, joining us on stage, is Jamie's dad, Les!" but in the dream it happens a few years from now, and they sort of wheel me out and I have a little keyboard on my lap....and even though I'm pooping in my pants with excitement, it's OK because I'm wearing an "oops I crapped my pants" adult diaper.

I'll jam with you Les! you can call me son every time I pick your brain on stuff haha

You have a deal my friend!

 

[ozboy]

From what I read the consensus on the cab clone is it has a good sound when using the the through jack to hook up a cab at the same time but sounds not quite there when used direct to the pa on its own.

I have are one and maybe I didn't give it a fair go but in my mk v I would rather play direct to the horizontal recto 2x12 and keep the master volume down as opposed to going through the cab clone to the pa with the amp head master turned up. This is just in a home situation.

One day day when there is more time I will dig the cab clone out again and give it another try.

 

[aristotle]

In spite of the fact that ozboy seems to want to keep this thread on track :biggrin: .......

We had practice tonight and as an experiment, no drums were mic'd, bass didn't go through the PA, and both guitars were at low volumes. Levels were set so that the mix out front was right. It wasn't particularly satisfying on a bunch of the songs. Some of the dance tunes worked out fine. A bunch of the harder rockin' tunes just didn't have that somfin' somfin'. And I don't say that from the perspective of the performer. FOH, it just didn't have that push.

I hear what you say Les, and for some material, I definitely agree. And surely there is a lack of musicianship involved in some of what we do. But there is a critical mass of sound for songs like...say...Cold Hard *****, or Bad Girlfriend, or Stranglehold, or .... You get the idea. I do think it's somewhat material dependent. Sometimes you just need to feel a bit of breeze every time the kick drum gets kicked.

I will say though that from the perspective of practicing, it did work out well in terms of working on tightness...

 

[Boogie]

...no drums were mic'd, bass didn't go through the PA, and both guitars were at low volumes... It wasn't particularly satisfying on a bunch of the songs...

If you aren't feelin' it, you can't expect your audience to feel it. To me, this is a big deal because it impacts the performance.

 

[aristotle]

If you aren't feelin' it, you can't expect your audience to feel it. To me, this is a big deal because it impacts the performance.

I definitely agree. I forget if you're going to make it to the festivities here in a few weeks Boogie. If so, I say we strap Les down, fire up a few Marshall full stacks and watch him squirm!

 

[László]

I say we strap Les down, bring in a few hookers and have some fun!

There. Fixed it for ya.

If we're going to have fun, let's ALL have fun.

 

[László]

From what I read the consensus on the cab clone is it has a good sound when using the the through jack to hook up a cab at the same time but sounds not quite there when used direct to the pa on its own.

Yes, I mentioned in my second post that the Cab Clone is a purely resistive load without a speaker attached, where with the speaker it becomes a reactive load because that's passed on by the speaker. Speakers are reactive loads.

Thus for most "speaker like" tone, the Cab Clone likes having a speaker attached so that it can take on those characteristics.

I do, however, still think it's a useful tool even without a speaker load attached.