Dead spot / frequency - how common?

[Keith B.]

Hi all. I'm a brand new, first time PRS owner. Bought a trampas green CE24 through Reverb. Guitar looks amazing. Feels amazing. Sounds amazing, plays amazing.... except... A natural 14th fret on the G string. Dies out super quickly. I'm not a super player, but I have a good enough ear.

Took this to a shop - not a great experience because I thought I made it clear that was the only issue I was concerned, but got talked into a setup on the notion that the the truss rod needed a tweak, etc. I pick up guitar only to find no change no change in that dead spot. The tech/luthier says "oh yeah, that's definitely a dead spot, bad frequency" - I had actually never known about this concept. He says, nothing he can do about it. He says i should probably dump the guitar if I cant live with it. I'm frustrated I didnt make it painfully clear that was the issue from the start, but that's another story.

So, i know there's a CE24 at my local guitar center. I go check it out. I am pretty damn sure that guitar also did not sustain the exact same note. So, now I think I must be crazy because this coincidence cant be.... can it?

From what I've read, there is no true solution to these dead spots/frequencies, just attempts at work arounds.

Any other experiences with this particular guitar? Any advice? Any official PRS position? Is this a warranty item, or a "tone" clause that is not covered?

Thanks!

 

[veinbuster]

A bit odd that one note on one string does not sustain.
How is the A on fret 10 of the B string and 5 on the high 5? If that note never sustains, I would be will to blame the guitar. If it is just that one note in one of its 5 positions, I would look for a problem with the G string chain.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Keith B.]

19th fret D string on mine also dies, if that is helpful to know. 10th fret B string seems fine, in fact I've been using that note/position in place of 14th g.

What do mean by "prob with the G string "chain"? Anything I can do to test/adjust/fix?

Thank you very much for any ideas.

 

[Tone-y]

It happens with any stringed instrument. They're known as wolf notes traditionally and are a big problem on things like cellos and you can get special weights to add to strings to move the position of the wolf note to somewhere less problematic.
As far as your guitar goes, I find old strings make any wolf notes more apparent, so a fresh set of strings might help. Also changing brands/string gauges might help. As it's a CE, make sure the neck bolts are torqued up too.
Unfortunately, it's unlikely that you will be able to make it disappear completely, but hopefully get it to a level you can live with. Also consider just learning not to land on that note and sustaining for any length of time

 

[AP515]

So, fret location and tone quality 101.

There are the normal tones one expects to hear.
There are dead spot tones no one likes to hear.
There are wolf tones many people love to hear.

Wolf tones and dead spots are not the same thing. Wolf tones are those howling harmonic leftovers when you hit a note and it starts to go into that infinite sustain thing that's really cool. Only a few places on the neck will do it without massive gain, and there is a good reason for it that I'll explain. Dead spots are just the opposite. The sustain just poops out. Really quickly and really disappointing (...that's what she said). Both wolf tones and dead spots come from the same thing. Harmonic interference. With dead spots the frequency cancels itself out killing the sustain. In wolf tones it amplifies and so the sustain goes on much longer. That is why it only happens on one fret or another, you can only get it on what is called a "node", a location where the frequency can reach resonance with the neck length in either a positive or negative mode. Positive = wolf tones, negative = dead spots. 24 fretters have more dead spots than 22 fretters due to the change in mass, but both have them. That is why PRS tried to change the heel of the 24 fret guitars to try to minimize the dead spots. He knew what he was doing.

The location on the neck changes with the mass of the neck, so on one guitar it might be on one fret and on another guitar a different one (remember all wood has different density). What is more, you can change the location of the offending fret by putting a mass on your headstock. Try it. Put a small C-clamp on your headstock (use a cloth to protect the finish) and watch the offending fret move up or down the neck by 1 or more depending on the mass of the C-clamp.

So, it is true you can't really eliminate dead spots, but the good news is you probably have some wolf tones as well. Just search for the frets that give you longer harmonic sustain under modest gain. If you really need to play in a key that has a dead spot and you need to sustain that note, putting some mass on the head stock will move it out of your way. An electronic tuner may do it for you, not sure. A Spring loaded capo should have enough mass to do it, come to think of it.

 

[Tone-y]

Ok, it's the opposite of a wolf note then. I knew there where wolves involved somewhere

 

[veinbuster]

19th fret D string on mine also dies, if that is helpful to know. 10th fret B string seems fine, in fact I've been using that note/position in place of 14th g.

What do mean by "prob with the G string "chain"? Anything I can do to test/adjust/fix?

Thank you very much for any ideas.

AP515 has already covered most of it, but this is what I meant by ‘the G string chain’. In my mind, the G string chain is: that tuner, that slot in the nut, that part of the bridge and the poles for that string in the pickups. If a note dies just on that string, I would look for something causing a loss of that frequency in those spots.

I might not find anything that I can change, but the engineer in me tends to look. These are some of the things I might try.

Change the tuning of that string. If I tune it up to A, or down to F and the A an octave higher now sustains, I become suspicious of the 14th fret and check how the new note at that position behaves.
Change the gauge of that string (Tone-y does make a good point about string age) and in the case of the G, maybe change between wound and unwound.
Make sure there is nothing loose in that slot of the bridge or the tuner, or any crap in anything that string touches.

In the end, I might give up and play around it, which is mostly playing that more on a different string when I want it to sustain.

 

[Rider1260]

Something I have done in the past is change the intonation very slightly , or you can raise the action very slightly.
As you get higher up the neck a string has less mass and the angle toward the bridge may not be steep enough to completely clear the next fret.
fret that note see if the string is slightly hitting the 15th fret.
There are some guitars that have Dead notes but not many and I have been able to fix most of them over the years by reseating or leveling a fret of two , or on bolt on necks changing the neck angle ever so slightly.
Try little adjustments and take mesurements as you go so you can return it to the setting you have now.

 

[12manD]

At about 2:20 in this video while playing on the b string I believe what you are talking about happens. I think it may be common on 24 fret guitars with thinner necks

 

[12manD]

Also about 4:18 in this video happens in the same register. I don't think this is a quality issue at all just the guitar being the imperfect instrument it is. Also if you start going through your other guitars you might find they also have these oddities just in registers you dont normally play in

 

[Keith B.]

This feedback makes sense, that these dead spots are "more common 24 fret guitars" (this is my first 24 fret); to try things in the "string chain"; "wood resonates", etc.

After listening, reading and trying to learn.... my question is this: Do any of you with 24 fret guitars (and especially if you have a later model year CE24) have NO dead spots on one of these/your guitars?

Guess my point/reason for this last question is... if it is possible to have a 24 fret guitar with NO dead spots/notes, shouldn't I just looker harder to find one?

thanks again.

 

[veinbuster]

Guess my point/reason for this last question is... if it is possible to have a 24 fret guitar with NO dead spots/notes, shouldn't I just looker harder to find one?

thanks again.

My Westie (24 fret Santana) has no dead spots.
I’ll try to check my stop tail Santana tomorrow, but I don’t recall dead spots on it.
My CU24, I’ll have to check as well.
I do not have a CE24, but doubt if dead spots would be specific to a bolt on neck.

 

[aphantomvaper]

IDK if any of my guitars have dead spots, I have never noticed it.

Three 22 and one 24 fret PRS, no dead spots after checking them.

 

[Keith B.]

Thanks guys, sort of what I was expecting to hear. As much as we all know what dead spots are, that they exist and even have some idea why.... none of that means we have to select a guitar to buy and keep that has dead spots.

 

[Ryan Tapley]

Have you played around with your pickup height? If you lower the neck pickup a little it could decrease the magnetic pull on the strings and might give you the sustain you are looking for.

 

[fjs1962]

I just went through this with a McCarty 594 that sounded great but had a dead note at B4. It didn’t matter where you played it, E at the 7th, B at the 12th, G at the 16th, there was an overtone that cancelled out the note. The guitar happened to be very resonant, almost like a hollow body in a way. Putting a capo or tuner on the headstock helped, but never got rid of it. Luckily I noticed it during the approval period and the dealer worked with me to return it and get me one that doesn’t have the same issue.

 

[RitchieP]

So, fret location and tone quality 101.

There are the normal tones one expects to hear.
There are dead spot tones no one likes to hear.
There are wolf tones many people love to hear.

Wolf tones and dead spots are not the same thing. Wolf tones are those howling harmonic leftovers when you hit a note and it starts to go into that infinite sustain thing that's really cool. Only a few places on the neck will do it without massive gain, and there is a good reason for it that I'll explain. Dead spots are just the opposite. The sustain just poops out. Really quickly and really disappointing (...that's what she said). Both wolf tones and dead spots come from the same thing. Harmonic interference. With dead spots the frequency cancels itself out killing the sustain. In wolf tones it amplifies and so the sustain goes on much longer. That is why it only happens on one fret or another, you can only get it on what is called a "node", a location where the frequency can reach resonance with the neck length in either a positive or negative mode. Positive = wolf tones, negative = dead spots. 24 fretters have more dead spots than 22 fretters due to the change in mass, but both have them. That is why PRS tried to change the heel of the 24 fret guitars to try to minimize the dead spots. He knew what he was doing.

The location on the neck changes with the mass of the neck, so on one guitar it might be on one fret and on another guitar a different one (remember all wood has different density). What is more, you can change the location of the offending fret by putting a mass on your headstock. Try it. Put a small C-clamp on your headstock (use a cloth to protect the finish) and watch the offending fret move up or down the neck by 1 or more depending on the mass of the C-clamp.

So, it is true you can't really eliminate dead spots, but the good news is you probably have some wolf tones as well. Just search for the frets that give you longer harmonic sustain under modest gain. If you really need to play in a key that has a dead spot and you need to sustain that note, putting some mass on the head stock will move it out of your way. An electronic tuner may do it for you, not sure. A Spring loaded capo should have enough mass to do it, come to think of it.

Very interesting, thanks for the 101 (been playing 30 years and never heard of wolf notes!). Interesting but in the end frustrating for me, I have a bunch of guitars

So, fret location and tone quality 101.

There are the normal tones one expects to hear.
There are dead spot tones no one likes to hear.
There are wolf tones many people love to hear.

Wolf tones and dead spots are not the same thing. Wolf tones are those howling harmonic leftovers when you hit a note and it starts to go into that infinite sustain thing that's really cool. Only a few places on the neck will do it without massive gain, and there is a good reason for it that I'll explain. Dead spots are just the opposite. The sustain just poops out. Really quickly and really disappointing (...that's what she said). Both wolf tones and dead spots come from the same thing. Harmonic interference. With dead spots the frequency cancels itself out killing the sustain. In wolf tones it amplifies and so the sustain goes on much longer. That is why it only happens on one fret or another, you can only get it on what is called a "node", a location where the frequency can reach resonance with the neck length in either a positive or negative mode. Positive = wolf tones, negative = dead spots. 24 fretters have more dead spots than 22 fretters due to the change in mass, but both have them. That is why PRS tried to change the heel of the 24 fret guitars to try to minimize the dead spots. He knew what he was doing.

The location on the neck changes with the mass of the neck, so on one guitar it might be on one fret and on another guitar a different one (remember all wood has different density). What is more, you can change the location of the offending fret by putting a mass on your headstock. Try it. Put a small C-clamp on your headstock (use a cloth to protect the finish) and watch the offending fret move up or down the neck by 1 or more depending on the mass of the C-clamp.

So, it is true you can't really eliminate dead spots, but the good news is you probably have some wolf tones as well. Just search for the frets that give you longer harmonic sustain under modest gain. If you really need to play in a key that has a dead spot and you need to sustain that note, putting some mass on the head stock will move it out of your way. An electronic tuner may do it for you, not sure. A Spring loaded capo should have enough mass to do it, come to think of it.

Thanks for the info, I've been playing 35 years and never heard of wolf notes till today. Well, interesting but frustrating! I have a lot of guitars and to find that my $3500 PRS Custom 24 is less satisfying in some respects than my $110 Squire bullet strat that I carry in the trunk of my car and generally treat like crap (for playing when I'm travelling) is depressing. The thing looks great, and sounds great but when the singing note stops a second or two too soon I want to stuff the darn thing through the speaker cab and get a beer.

 

[AP515]

Very interesting, thanks for the 101 (been playing 30 years and never heard of wolf notes!).

I'm pretty sure you have heard them, you just may not have known that is what they were called.

Wolf tones 201:
In the famous song below, there is a tasty little one at 1:03. Start at 1:00. In this cut you can hear the main (fundamental) note decay into the harmonic one octave above. That is a classic wolf tone. There is a monster one at 3:20 that lasts for a long time. Probably the longest one I can think of. In this one he has the gain right at the cross over point into infinite sustain. Start at 3:00. You can hear that just about every note he holds for any length of time starts to go into infinite sustain and you hear the 2nd harmonic start to pop out. By 3:22 he lets the note go into infinite sustain and the wolf tone (the 2nd harmonic) rings for about 20 seconds.

 

[DISTORT6]

MORE COWBELL!!!!

 

[Bill SAS 513]

"Blender P and J style" basses have (or used to have) a specific dead spot on the "G" string...around 7th fret, I think??
back in the 70's and 80's, a few fixes were offered...google headstock "fathead"...
a thin slab of brass that attached to the back of the older headstocks...interesting topic...
Good luck.