Valve quality and consistency

I have just learned yesterday that Mesa 12ax7 are JJs. Tubes I tho I hate forever and ever. I mean I only use stock mesas for reverb and loop driver but they are not entirely that bad. I remember liking stock set of 5 in my Fillmore just fine.

...I like my mix of modern / NOS tubes better but stock set ain't **** neither

Got myself a supply of this and that that should keep me going for some years. If russian tubes will be only thing available I will be quiting guitar and playing fucking piano instead - god prevent
 
I know how to use my volume and tone controls. I have spent most of my life playing one channel tube amps. However, quality solid-state today is not the crap it was in the sixties and seventies. The engineers who were involved in the early solid-state designs did not know how to use solid-state correctly.

What a lot of guitarists do not understand is that tube amp designers during the period where vacuum tubes where used in consumer electronics were going for HiFi clean on a budget. They were guys of my father's generation and slightly older (either trailing edge Greatest Generation or leading edge Silent Generation, 1925 or so to 1935 or so). The overdriven tones that guitarists exploited were the result of guitar amps being manufactured to cheaper price points than HiFi gear of the era.

Leo Fender and Jim Marshall were notoriously cheap. They purchased components that they could acquire cheaply. The output transformers in most Fender tube guitar amps are significantly undersized for their rated wattage, which means that they cannot do the full frequency range of a guitar at full power because neither Leo or Jim thought that guitarists would "dime" their amps. That is a huge part of the reason why amps like the Deluxe Reverb have farty bass when you crank them up and why Bassmen of any generation are incapable of producing tight bass when used with a bass guitar. A Bassman output transformer is a fraction of the the size of a comparable 50W HiFi transformer, which is why it cannot accurately reproduce 41Hz (the low "E" string on a bass) at full power. Leo and Company tried to overcome this limitation by using 4x10" speakers instead of larger diameter speakers. Ten inch quitar speakers tend to have -3db down points at 100hz.. If you do not believe me, look at the sound pressure lines on the linked pages for the Jensen P10R (https://www.jensentone.com/vintage-ceramic/p10r) and Jensen P10Q (https://www.jensentone.com/vintage-alnico/p10q). Both of these speakers where used in Tweed Bassmen at different times. The ceramic versions of there speakers have the same -3db down point. What makes the HX/DA sound the way it does is a poor output transformer design. The Cinemag guys could not believe that Doug and Paul couldy wanted to duplicate the output transformer out of Duane's 50W bass head. That transformer has horrible frequency response. Marshalls were notorious for blowing up for a reason. They were not designed to be cranked up to 10.
 
I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I've found modern tubes to be very consistent. Consistently good or consistently not so good, but consistent nonetheless. JJ have been extremely reliable for me, I don't care for the sound of their ecc83s that comes in pretty much everything these days, but they last forever and all sound basically the same - tons of gain and muddy/blurry low end. Their ecc803s and e83cc, on the other hand, I think are fantastic, and again have been very consistent. Apparently Paul likes the 803, too, as it's the hand picked stand-in for NOS on the HDRX. JJ 6L6 and 6V6, also winners. I love the new production Mullard ecc83 and 12at7 and haven't experienced much variation in them, either.

There have been some tubes from other brands that I just stay away from based on experiences that have been the same again and again - GT, EH, they just don't turn me on.

If I can continue to source tubes like the JJ's and Mullards, I'll keep on using tube amps. Looking like a lot of JJ in my near future at the moment, but I'm not running out to buy a modeler any time soon.
JJs are very good tubes; I've never had one fail that I can recall. The same cannot be said for Russian or Chinese tubes - they've failed me often enough that I'm leery of them, plus there's the whole war thing, so wouldn't buy them anyway (and China is expected to prop up Russia financially).

In recent years, I've used mostly NOS, but I tried a set of Telefunken-branded JJ output tubes in my Lone Star because I didn't want to spend a zillion bucks on RCA NOS tubes, and I gotta say, the amp sounds great. Telefunken hand selects them, and treats them cryogenically (cryogenics was invented to stiffen metals in the industry); these are the first output tubes I've had in that amp (a combo) that don't rattle. My usual fix has been tube dampers from Eurotubes, but these don't need them.

I've had JJs come from various factories in other amps in the past, and they lasted and sounded pretty good.

Anyway, I'd recommend JJs to anyone not into buying NOS.
 
I know how to use my volume and tone controls. I have spent most of my life playing one channel tube amps. However, quality solid-state today is not the crap it was in the sixties and seventies. The engineers who were involved in the early solid-state designs did not know how to use solid-state correctly.

What a lot of guitarists do not understand is that tube amp designers during the period where vacuum tubes where used in consumer electronics were going for HiFi clean on a budget. They were guys of my father's generation and slightly older (either trailing edge Greatest Generation or leading edge Silent Generation, 1925 or so to 1935 or so). The overdriven tones that guitarists exploited were the result of guitar amps being manufactured to cheaper price points than HiFi gear of the era.

Leo Fender and Jim Marshall were notoriously cheap. They purchased components that they could acquire cheaply. The output transformers in most Fender tube guitar amps are significantly undersized for their rated wattage, which means that they cannot do the full frequency range of a guitar at full power because neither Leo or Jim thought that guitarists would "dime" their amps. That is a huge part of the reason why amps like the Deluxe Reverb have farty bass when you crank them up and why Bassmen of any generation are incapable of producing tight bass when used with a bass guitar. A Bassman output transformer is a fraction of the the size of a comparable 50W HiFi transformer, which is why it cannot accurately reproduce 41Hz (the low "E" string on a bass) at full power. Leo and Company tried to overcome this limitation by using 4x10" speakers instead of larger diameter speakers. Ten inch quitar speakers tend to have -3db down points at 100hz.. If you do not believe me, look at the sound pressure lines on the linked pages for the Jensen P10R (https://www.jensentone.com/vintage-ceramic/p10r) and Jensen P10Q (https://www.jensentone.com/vintage-alnico/p10q). Both of these speakers where used in Tweed Bassmen at different times. The ceramic versions of there speakers have the same -3db down point. What makes the HX/DA sound the way it does is a poor output transformer design. The Cinemag guys could not believe that Doug and Paul couldy wanted to duplicate the output transformer out of Duane's 50W bass head. That transformer has horrible frequency response. Marshalls were notorious for blowing up for a reason. They were not designed to be cranked up to 10.
I have no disagreement with your technical analysis or history discussion. If solid state and modeling amps are something you like, my only issue is with the sounds. Not that there's a right and wrong. The brain's reaction to sound is so subjective and personal that there's no arguing with anyone's taste.

There's no best thing for everyone. But there's a best thing for me, and it's no secret I'll only consider tube amps.

I've played through recent solid state amps and modelers, and don't enjoy the experience, nor am I satisfied with other folks' use of these types of amps.

We're all different, and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. If modelers or solid state amps worked for me, I'd have them, since I make my living producing music, and having one would be an easy thing. They don't work for me, so I don't buy them. Of course, I speak only for myself, and everyone has to make up their own mind on these subjects.

I think they're bullsh!t, and so what. It's not like anyone else makes amp decisions based on what I think, nor should they! :eek:
 
There's no best thing for everyone. But there's a best thing for me, and it's no secret I'll only consider tube amps.

I've played through recent solid state amps and modelers, and don't enjoy the experience, nor am I satisfied with other folks' use of these types of amps.

We're all different, and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for all. If modelers or solid state amps worked for me, I'd have them, since I make my living producing music, and having one would be an easy thing. They don't work for me, so I don't buy them. Of course, I speak only for myself, and everyone has to make up their own mind on these subjects.

I think they're bullsh!t, and so what. It's not like anyone else makes amp decisions based on what I think, nor should they! :eek:
While you are I are old enough that tubes becoming scarce is not a problem, you owe it to yourself to keep n open mind to advancements in solid-state analog guitar sound electronics. If you like Fender blackface amps, the Quilter amps do that tone in spades. They even do a decent emulations of the blonde and brownface amps. Where Quilter falls down is on mid-gain tones. I do know where Pat Quilter's mind is with respect to tone, but he appears to be stuck in the sixties.

With said, I chuckle when I see users of Mesa's V-Twin pedal and rack mount preamp state that they use a tube preamp. The tubes in a V-Twin are for glow only. Most of the circuitry in the pedal and the rack mount preamp is solid-state.

While I do not see myself moving to an AxeFx, I have to admit that the bands I have seen that use the AxeFx acheive the closest to studio sound I have ever heard live. However, studio tone is not raw tone. You and I both know that a lot of coloring occurs in the studio.
 
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I’ve A/B’d the Katana after dialling in the absolute best blues tone I can a couple of times with my favourite valve amp and there is a difference. The valve amp has a better sound, with a much more complex tone. Whether or not you would appreciate such a sonic difference in a band mix live , or indeed whether the audience would is another question and if I was still gigging I may well keep my valve amps for use at home and gig the katana.
I now have at least a six year supply of valves tucked away at home so that gives the technology a chance to catch up with the bit of valve tone that it’s missing at the
moment.
 
I now have at least a six year supply of valves tucked away at home so that gives the technology a chance to catch up with the bit of valve tone that it’s missing at the moment.
Power tubes last a lot longer than guitarists believe. I worked on '68 Silverface Super Reverb that had its original RCA preamp and power tubes. I did a 6L6 to 6V6 conversion on the amp to get the amp to give up the goods sooner. I asked the owner if he wanted the power tubes back. His answer was "no." I used them in an amp I built and they sounded great. This Super Reverb was definitely a road warrior that had seen its fair share of gigs. I had a EICO HF-81 integrated amplifier and HFT-90 tuner that my father built for my grandfather in the 50s. My grandfather gave both pieces of equipment to me in 1975. The 6BQ5s (a.k.a. EL84s) in HF-81 were still strong when I received amplifier and they were still going strong when my parents gave it away when I went into the Navy.

The moral of the story is that good tubes biased correctly last a long time. There is a tendency to under-bias (use too little bias voltage) class AB amps, which results in the tubes running hotter than they should. I have seem a lot of amps where the tubes were under-biased to the point where the power tubes plates have red edges while in operation. I have seen fixed-bias amps biased well beyond 70% plate dissipation, which is really the limit when we are talking about class AB operation. Class AB operation allows for safe operation at higher plate voltages for any given tube, which, in turn, increases clean head room.

Let's discuss amplifier operating classes.

Class A - Power tube(s) remain on for 360 degrees

Class B - Power tube(s) remain on for 180 degrees

Class AB - Power tubes(s) remain on for more than 180 degrees, but less than 360 degrees

Most tube-type guitar amps operate in class AB. It has most of the benefits of class A operation with some of the increased power output of a class B amp. The Vox AC15 and AC30 are touted as being class A amps, but they are actually class AB amps because the bias voltage rises as current is drawn through the cathode resistor. The only true class A guitar amps are those with a single output tube. Class A amps lack the characteristic crossover distortion that makes a class AB amp sound like a class AB amp when driven hard.

Pat Quilter does a good job of demonstrating the tonal effect of crossover distortion in this video:

.

Pat refers to the crossover notch that causes this distortion as "bacon far," but one can see the notches form as the amp is driven harder causing it to get closer to class B operation. A class A amp does not create this distortion artifact because there is no crossover notch due to the fact that the power tube(s) never shutoff. At lower signal levels, class AB amps do not create it either because the tubes conduct for more than 180 degrees.

If one watches the entire video, Pat explains how damping factor affects traditional solid-state designs (not the design for which he was awarded a patent). The "FRFR" mode places the Tone Block 202 in traditional highly-damped solid-state mode. That is the how most solid-state amps that are used in music production operate. A highly-damped power section is great for HiFi and sound reinforcement, but the voltage overshoot that occurs in a poorly-damped amp is a large part of why tube amps sound louder than traditional solid-state amps with the same power rating. It is caused by the fact that a loudspeaker is not only driven by a signal energizing the voice coil creating a magnetic field that attracts or repels the magnetic field created by the permanent magnet on the back of the speaker, it also generates a signal that is fed back into the amp through the output transformer when the voice coil cuts magnetic lines of force created by the permanent magnet. The generated signal is know as back electromotive force (EMF).
 
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While you are I are old enough that tubes becoming scarce is not a problem, you owe it to yourself to keep n open mins to advancements in solid-state analog guitar sound electronics. If you like Fender blackface amps, the Quilter amps do that tone in spades. They even do a decent emulations of the blonde and brownface amps. Where Quilter falls down is on mid-gain tones. I do know where Pat Quilter's mind is with respect to tone, but he appears to be stuff in the sixties.
I need to stay current on the technology, given what I do for a living. If there's a better mousetrap, I want to have it in my studio. So I try most everything that gets mentioned on forums, in magazines, and in ads.

This was why I started trying out modeling amps even before the original POD; Roland had one called the VG-8 that was introduced in 1995, and I had an early one in my studio for a time. The VG-8 was expensive, and state of the modeling art at the time, but it didn't stay long. Neither did the POD a few years later.

I could go on, there have been a bunch I've tried, and still try, but so far no-go.

Back in the early '90s the SansAmp, a solid state non-modeling device, was the Next Big Thing. I had the rack mount version. It left the building after a short time.

Indeed, in addition to trying the Helix, the Kemper, and a few others, I've got a crap ton of plugin amp models that sound fairly mediocre, and two that are pretty good but not quite "there" yet, both from Universal Audio. I have all the Softube, Waves, Plugin Alliance, Native Instruments, IK Multimedia, and a few others. I use them as scratchpads when I can't make a lot of noise, and then re-record the parts with real amps later, because the models aren't happening for me.

I mention all this because I'm pretty open-minded. I'd love it if modelers were truly equal to tube amps! That'd be great, since I'm too feeble to be shlepping around 100 pound amplifiers!

But when one is open to new ideas, one has to also be open minded enough to say, "No, this still isn't very good, the old idea actually sounds better."

During the summer before last, I compared a hardware Neve 1073 mic preamp clone made by BAE - a box that's actually more authentic than the current Neve reissue, using the original St. Ives transformers - with the Universal Audio 1073 software model that works to control the physical properties of the UA mic preamp as well as adds its own modeling. This was the cream of their plugin line.

Same Neumann mic, same cable, same acoustic guitar, measured the distance to the mic, etc.

Not only was the hardware version nicer-sounding, I wasn't the only one who thought so. I posted the recordings to Soundcloud and linked the tracks on my own forum. People could hear what I was talking about, and everyone agreed the real thing was superior sounding. Not that the UA model was bad; just that the hardware sounded more immediate, punchier, and generally better.

I know I'm not alone in this stuff. There are plenty of players who prefer tube amps, and for good reason!

I'll make one last point. I have a close friend who's spent a long time putting together an all-tube hi fi system. My reproduction system in my studio is solid state, because it's crazy-accurate. But when I visit my friend and listen to music on his system, I'm transported. It does things nothing else will do.
 
The problem with digital modelers at this point is that they still suffer from the same problem that early CDs suffered (some say all CD). A digital modeler produces a discrete approximation of a continuous signal over which noise is added to smooth out the steps. The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem (Harry Nyquist and Claude Shannon were researchers at Bell Labs) states that any continuous signal can be reproduced by sampling at a rate of twice the highest frequency. That is true, but the human ear can still pick up on it. Designers of digital recording and playback gear just keep upping the sampling rate until the digital artifacts could not be perceived by the human ear. With a modeler, we are just starting to reach the point where processors can produce discrete approximations with a fine enough resolution that they sound authentic. Where they are still falling down is modeling back EMF. The push-back (feel) as well as the harmonic complexity that occurs as the signal generated by the speaker is fed back into the power amp is still not there for people who are used to these technological foibles.

With that said, you must have really hated eighties hard rock and metal tones, especially hard rock and metal tones that were recorded in the second half of the eighties when studios started to switch over to using Rockman rack gear, ADA MP-1s, and SansAmps. Those tones are very difficult to generate with tube technology alone. It is very difficult to design a tube amp that can generate that much overdrive without it being incredibly unstable. Even Marshall realized that they could not compete in this area with tube technology alone. Besides the ValveState stuff, Marshall incorporated solid-state clipping in their tube amps (e.g., JCM 900 and Silver Jubilee). Many great hard rock and metal albums from the eighties were recorded using an ADA MP-1. The list is quite amazing to see. Like the tubes in the Mesa V-Twin pedal and preamp, the tubes in the ADA MP-1 preamp were for mostly for glow. The MP-1 was for all intents and purposes a solid-state preamp.
 
One last comment and I am done, let's discuss eighties bar band amps. They were not Fender tweed, blackface, or silverface amps. Those amps could be purchased for a song at that point in time because no one wanted them (I purchased a cherry 1964 blackface Princeton Reverb in 1989 for $150.00 to use for home practice). It seemed like every bar band in the eighties was using either Peavey Bandits or Peavey Specials (these were the pre-transtube versions). Marshalls were too darn loud by the time they gave up the goods and pedal technology, well, it was not what it is today, so an amp had to do gain tones at reasonable sound pressure levels. The few bands that did use Marshalls usually turned their cabinets around or used a heavy blanket to cover all, but one speaker in a 4x12. I saw exactly one bar band use a Fender Deluxe Reverb during that decade, and then there were the progressive/new wave bands and their JC-120s.
 
With that said, you must have really hated eighties hard rock and metal tones, especially hard rock and metal tones that were recorded in the second half of the eighties when studios started to switch over to using Rockman rack gear, ADA MP-1s, and SansAmps.
I do, 80's could as be wiped out of existence and I wouldn't even notified with exception of The Cure and Dire Straits
 
I do, 80's could as be wiped out of existence and I wouldn't even notified with exception of The Cure and Dire Straits
You are no longer in my will!

1fa.gif
 
Dire Straits is only on the list as the Money For Nothing was the first ever song I played air guitar to at age of 5 or 6
So... Rush, Ozzie, Van Halen, Priest, Maiden, Triumph, Yngwie, Yes, Kansas, Boston, Guns, Crue, and even WINGER! etc. etc. etc... we're just tossing all them out the window?
 
With that said, you must have really hated eighties hard rock and metal tones, especially hard rock and metal tones that were recorded in the second half of the eighties when studios started to switch over to using Rockman rack gear, ADA MP-1s, and SansAmps. Those tones are very difficult to generate with tube technology alone. It is very difficult to design a tube amp that can generate that much overdrive without it being incredibly unstable. Even Marshall realized that they could not compete in this area with tube technology alone. Besides the ValveState stuff, Marshall incorporated solid-state clipping in their tube amps (e.g., JCM 900 and Silver Jubilee). Many great hard rock and metal albums from the eighties were recorded using an ADA MP-1. The list is quite amazing to see. Like the tubes in the Mesa V-Twin pedal and preamp, the tubes in the ADA MP-1 preamp were for mostly for glow. The MP-1 was for all intents and purposes a solid-state preamp.

Comparing Studio tricks to live performances doesn't correlate. Even personal at home practice is a different ballgame. I love a good old vintage amp, vintage guitar/pickups....BUT the vintage recorded tones....I am not chasing...I mean once you hear the real thing out of a guitar speaker and you rip out some licks it's usually evident how much flavor a recording can't capture. While I don't prefer using modern modeling plugins myself in the studio I've heard some good tones from them in the studio environment. Things can be tweaked to make it sound great in the mix.

You mention that "it is very difficult to design a tube amp that can generate that much overdrive without it being incredibly unstable."

I don't know what was difficult to get a good tone out of a tube amp back then, but the technology is different today. High gain amps can have clear articulate gain now. You don't need to send power tubes into "break up" and this is undesirable for me with the high gain styles I play. But I'm not trying to use a maxed out plexi or a cranked to the moon JCM900 to get rock tones like they did in 1985....now in 2021 er...22....you get a high gain amp and turn the gain down.
 
So... Rush, Ozzie, Van Halen, Priest, Maiden, Triumph, Yngwie, Yes, Kansas, Boston, Guns, Crue, and even WINGER! etc. etc. etc... we're just tossing all them out the window?

Winger socks lol - it's like a poster of everything that was wrong with the 80's. Songs about cars, girls or f******g

Guns ok

I respect EVH for doing 80s thing his own way

...otherwise I'm really not in the eighties
 
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Winger socks lol - it's like a poster of everything that was wrong with the 80's. Songs about cars, girls or fucking

Guns ok

I respect EVH for doing 80s thing his own way

...otherwise I'm really not in the eighties
Oh, and I know we aren't policed heavily, but I don't think we're allowed to say that word here. :eek::eek:


please remove "guns" from your post. :p:p
 
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