PRS SE Models - Do They Have the Same “Essence” As Core Models?

[gtrdave]

The companies you mention all own those varios plants. They are owned by Fender and Gibson. They disclose them as what they are ie squier, epiphone, etc they do not try to market them as Fender or Gibson. Epiphone is marketed under the Epiphone banner, squier is marketed under the squire banner. However PRS do not own Cort nor is Cort a subsiduary of PRS, and yet PRS want to sell you a guitar that they dont even make, by a company they dont own, as A PRS. Im fully aware of how marketing works. This is completely the truth you just dont understand it for what it is. its not that i wish to buy only USA made products. i think you neet to scratch your head again. They make product in different locatiins to make more profit its never for the benefit of the buyer, dont be so gullible. what poor labour rate of pay are these people having to work so we can have these cheap products. The corporate ismfocussed on profit.

A little history lesson for you. For many years Epiphones were built in Korea NOT at Gibson-owned plants and some, the earliest Elite/Elitist models, were built in Japan, again, NOT at Gibson-owned plants. It wasn't until a few years ago that Gibson moved most Epiphone production to their own plant in China.
Next, Fender did the same thing with Squier and some Fenders, having them built in various Asian and EurAsian factories that they did not own but were contracted over time to build Squiers and Fenders for Fender corporate. They weren't building copies all those years.
These are facts vs. your opinions.

And what do you say about the S2 guitars, most of which are made with the exact same components that are used in the SE line? The only difference is that the bodies and necks are cut and finished and the instruments are assembled in Maryland. Are these copies?

And then there's Ibanez. Which ones are real and which are the copies?
Or how about ESP/LTD? By your thinking all LTD guitars are copies, but the reality is that they're not.

 

[Dirty_Boogie]

Very simple… it’s called contract manufacturing. Whether it’s the medication you take, or the Nike sweatshirt you’re wearing, or the name brand dishwasher that cleaned your dinner plates, chances are it was produced by a contract manufacturer. SE, like S2, is simply another level/lower price point of PRS guitars.

Consider GE appliances… you have GE Cafe, GE and GE Profile. All at different price points, and likely made in different plants (most of which aren’t GE-owned anyway). But you still own a GE appliance, right? Not so fast… Bet you didn’t know that GE appliances are now made by Haier. Not exactly a brand that has the legacy and name recognition of GE. So it makes business sense to sell the appliances under the GE brand.

The list is endless… If you ride a high-end racing bicycle with a fancy Italian name… chances are it was built by Giant bicycles in Taiwan. Yup, that Colnago you spent 8K on comes from that same plant.

So once again, this thread is just silly and meaningless. If Mr. Smith has chosen to put his name prominently on the SE line, it’s a Paul Reed Smith guitar. Who are we to say he’s wrong?

 

[mixmkr]

Cort has a separate line for PRS under PRS direction initially. Recent statements by Paul reflect they contact import manufacturing on a daily basis to constantly improve the product.
These are statements coming directly from Paul which can be found online in video

 

[SinSir]

Yup, that Colnago you spent 8K on comes from that same plant.

Leave my Colnago out of this!

 

[SixStringSlinger]

A little history lesson for you. For many years Epiphones were built in Korea NOT at Gibson-owned plants and some, the earliest Elite/Elitist models, were built in Japan, again, NOT at Gibson-owned plants. It wasn't until a few years ago that Gibson moved most Epiphone production to their own plant in China.
Next, Fender did the same thing with Squier and some Fenders, having them built in various Asian and EurAsian factories that they did not own but were contracted over time to build Squiers and Fenders for Fender corporate. They weren't building copies all those years.
These are facts vs. your opinions.

And what do you say about the S2 guitars, most of which are made with the exact same components that are used in the SE line? The only difference is that the bodies and necks are cut and finished and the instruments are assembled in Maryland. Are these copies?

And then there's Ibanez. Which ones are real and which are the copies?
Or how about ESP/LTD? By your thinking all LTD guitars are copies, but the reality is that they're not.

i understand what you are saying about the manufacturing. The fact remains, and not my opinion, that even though Epiphone, squire etc were made at the varios plants in Asia or wherever, they still were all sold as Epiphone guitars. Same as Fender with Squier etc. They didnt build those guitars and then try to sell them as genuine Gibson and Fender. This is what PRS have done. They have had products made by another company and are selling them as PRS, not as a second line of Product like squier and fender, epiphone and gibson. etc

let me ask you this. If those SE guitars Just Said Cort on the headstock, or any other name they chose to market them under and not PRS, would you still say they were a PRS or a Licenced copy of one? if the name on the headstock is the only deciding factor, then fender have no reason not to market the squier stratocaster as a genuine Fender same for Gibson.And All epiphones should be Gibson.

If the origin of PRS guitars is irrelevent, and make no difference, then why is there such a disparity between the prices of what i would consider to be Guitars made at the actual PRS plant in the USA, and their guitars made for them by any old company as long as the price is right.

if we come to the conclusion that that they are one and the same product, regardless of where it is made, then the price should be the same for all models of the same, regardless of manufacturing origin.

As per PRS info. All PRS Private Stock, Core and S2 guitars are made the United States. The SE line of guitars are made to our exact specifications by our partners overseas. So its clear they are not made by PRS they are made by their partners ie Cort in this case. Why the need to declare that? why make not make all PRS guitars at the USA prs plant?

As an asside. Why would they not want to have the Private stock, core models and s2 models made by Cort? if it doesnt matter. We would then all be able to buy exact Private stock guitars at a quater of the price. Im very sure that Cort could produce exactly the same quality Private stock guitar as is made in the USA plant.

What makes the USA models worth the extra price? and why do people pay that extra high price for a guitar made at the USA plant, as opposed to a 594se made by Cort? i myself purchased 2 core models, because i wanted a guitar that was built by PRS at their own PRS plant in the USA, not one that has not been made by them.

To finish. im of the thought that if i want a painting by VanGough, then i want it painted by him,and signed by him, and not one painted by another painter that VanGough has just signed. The name alone doesnt make it a genuine VanGough painting. its the origin that is traceable to him painting it, that traceability and origin gives the painting its value, and then he signs his work of art as his. in this example PRS is the artist, and i want a guitar made by them in their PRS facility, by their team of luthiers etc, with their name on, its traceable to them as the original manufacturer. this is important to its value as a genuine item. i dont want a guitar made by some other company, with just their PRS signature on. i want the real deal item. The name alone doesnt make it a PRS, that name is only part of the picture, and for it to be the real deal, the name and the origin of making it must marry up.

Peace.

 

[Wyzard]

if we come to the conclusion that that they are one and the same product, regardless of where it is made.......

Who stated this, in these words?

 

[SixStringSlinger]

Who stated this, in these words?

I did. Don’t isolate one part of a comment. It has to be taken in context with everything else that I wrote.

 

[Mozzi]

i understand what you are saying about the manufacturing. The fact remains, and not my opinion, that even though Epiphone, squire etc were made at the varios plants in Asia or wherever, they still were all sold as Epiphone guitars. Same as Fender with Squier etc. They didnt build those guitars and then try to sell them as genuine Gibson and Fender. This is what PRS have done. They have had products made by another company and are selling them as PRS, not as a second line of Product like squier and fender, epiphone and gibson. etc

let me ask you this. If those SE guitars Just Said Cort on the headstock, or any other name they chose to market them under and not PRS, would you still say they were a PRS or a Licenced copy of one? if the name on the headstock is the only deciding factor, then fender have no reason not to market the squier stratocaster as a genuine Fender same for Gibson.And All epiphones should be Gibson.

If the origin of PRS guitars is irrelevent, and make no difference, then why is there such a disparity between the prices of what i would consider to be Guitars made at the actual PRS plant in the USA, and their guitars made for them by any old company as long as the price is right.

if we come to the conclusion that that they are one and the same product, regardless of where it is made, then the price should be the same for all models of the same, regardless of manufacturing origin.

As per PRS info. All PRS Private Stock, Core and S2 guitars are made the United States. The SE line of guitars are made to our exact specifications by our partners overseas. So its clear they are not made by PRS they are made by their partners ie Cort in this case. Why the need to declare that? why make not make all PRS guitars at the USA prs plant?

As an asside. Why would they not want to have the Private stock, core models and s2 models made by Cort? if it doesnt matter. We would then all be able to buy exact Private stock guitars at a quater of the price. Im very sure that Cort could produce exactly the same quality Private stock guitar as is made in the USA plant.

What makes the USA models worth the extra price? and why do people pay that extra high price for a guitar made at the USA plant, as opposed to a 594se made by Cort? i myself purchased 2 core models, because i wanted a guitar that was built by PRS at their own PRS plant in the USA, not one that has not been made by them.

To finish. im of the thought that if i want a painting by VanGough, then i want it painted by him,and signed by him, and not one painted by another painter that VanGough has just signed. The name alone doesnt make it a genuine VanGough painting. its the origin that is traceable to him painting it, that traceability and origin gives the painting its value, and then he signs his work of art as his. in this example PRS is the artist, and i want a guitar made by them in their PRS facility, by their team of luthiers etc, with their name on, its traceable to them as the original manufacturer. this is important to its value as a genuine item. i dont want a guitar made by some other company, with just their PRS signature on. i want the real deal item. The name alone doesnt make it a PRS, that name is only part of the picture, and for it to be the real deal, the name and the origin of making it must marry up.

Peace.

They are NOT the exact same product just made 'elsewhere', they are a Licensed product made to PRS specifications in a 'way' that keeps the cost 'down' for the Customer - potentially offering them a much higher quality product for the 'cost' than they themselves can produce..

For example, a Core uses Single piece Mahogany bodies and a thick piece of Figured Maple for the top. CE/S2's also use Single piece Mahogany bodies but a thinner Maple cap, SE's use multi pierce Mahogany/maple caps with a pretty veneer to keep the aesthetic. Neck construction too is 'different' and there is a LOT more cost to a Single piece Mahogany neck than a scarf joint 'plank' neck.

Its NOT just 'cheap' labour as you put it, but also cheaper overheads - their overall costs are lower - cheaper rates mean that even the electricity used is 'cheaper' let alone the workers pay. But really, its no different from PRS contacting D'Addario for example to make PRS Strings to their specifications that 'no other' not even D'Addario could sell, or having Schaller make PRS tuners under licence for PRS...

An S2 has 'import' Licensed Hardware on it despite being assembled in the US. Buy a S2 Cu24 and it has the same Pups & Bridge as an SE to 'keep' the costs down but that's still a PRS guitar.

PRS maybe in Partnership with Cort on their 'SE' range, but they are in partnership with 'numerous' other manufacturers too who make things like PRS Straps, PRS clothing, PRS 'parts' (like Bridges, tuners, switches, knobs etc), PRS strings etc. Even things like cases are not actually made by PRS in their factory but made under Licence for PRS. These are all officially 'PRS' products - whether made in-house or under licence exclusively for PRS.

For years, the 'SE' range never had Paul Reed Smith on the Headstock - they were 'PRS' SE's. I think in 2017 they changed to having the Signature and significantly reduced the 'SE' size. Not only that, we have seen the partnership with Cort really take off and now they have their 'own' factory inside the Cort Complex where they make ONLY PRS guitars and it even says its a PRS factory on the building.

At the end of the day, there is a 'compromise' to the way a guitar is made to reduce the costs.
A core uses more 'Raw' wood and wastes more as more is carved away. the extra carved top and 1-piece neck take a lot more man-hours too adding 'cost'. A CE/Bolt-on reduces the 'cost' by changing how the neck is constructed and attached as well as less waste with a shallower maple top and S2 cuts the costs even further by using 'SE' pups/parts too. SE compromises by making the guitar overseas and using multi-piece bodies. That's where the difference in costs come. An SE isn't built the same using the 'same' construction as a core - its a 'compromise' to make a guitar to sell at upto $1k - something they can't do in the US.

Much like an S2 is a 'compromise' over their Core construction by changing neck construction, reducing the carve to reduce 'hands on' time and using SE Pups etc to keep the cost at 'half' what a Core costs - yet you don't think these are 'not' PRS guitars despite the 'compromises' PRS themselves have made to make the S2 as 'cheap' as it is. You only get Hardcases too with Core that adds to costs - hence why they vary in price - its not just Labour or overhead costs...

Arguably, these are intelligent compromises as the 'Core' elements are still there - from the body shape, the neck carves, the playability, the functionality etc. Does a 1 piece neck make a difference over a Scarf joint multi-piece neck? does the thicker Maple cap and more pronounced carve make a difference? For some, yes! that's why they Buy a Core but for others an S2 or SE maybe deliver the 'best bang for buck' PRS on the market....

They are all PRS - whether made by or 'for' PRS under Licence.

 

[Juan Luis Vidal]

I think the SE line are clearly well made instruments, there is no doubt in that.

We question these things I think, because something doesn’t balance between our gut feeling, with the name that we see on the headstock ie PRS, and where we actually know who has made it ie Cort.

Now, what if Gibson started to put just Gibson on all of the Epiphone guitars. Would that mean that they are now Gibson guitars? Or would we be feeling like we are being deceived? Because we know it was made by Epiphone and not Gibson, and it should be labelled as an Epiphone.

My feeling is. if it does not originate from the original factory, then it is not a PRS made guitar, it is, and always will be a Cort guitar with a PRS name on it.

Much the same way the Epiphone will always be an Epiphone, even if it has the Gibson name on it, because it was not made by Gibson. Same goes for squire, etc

It doesn’t mean that any of these instruments are junk, but for me I had an Epiphone les Paul, which was a nice guitar, but by brain and heart was telling me that this is not a Gibson les Paul, I felt like I was using a fake Gibson guitar. I had no choice but to save for the real deal. The impact on my psychology now knowing that I was playing a real Gibson, improved my attitude towards my guitar and my playing.

It’s the same for my PRS guitars. I buy USA models because I don’t want the feeling that I’m playing a copy of one, made by another company like Cort. Why not just release the SE line with the Cort name on? and sell them as licences by Prs. Do you think they would sell? No because it would be clear that they are not PRS.

At the end of the day if you want a real PRS you have to buy a USA Maryland built Prs. Otherwise you are just fooling yourself that it is one.

Does it mean if PRS licenced me, and I make a PRS, exact copy and, and I mean an exact copy, and put the PRS name on it, would that mean it is a PRS? Even though it’s been made in my shed. Of course it wouldn’t. And if they didn’t licence me, i would rightly end up in court, with PRS suing me because it was not a PRS.

So buy original USA Maryland PRS because anything else is a copy made by someone else, whatever way you try and sugar coat it, whatever name you want to put on it, it’s always just a copy.

Peace.

Ibanez guitars are made, mainly, in Japan, China, Indonesia and USA. In fact their custom shop is located in the USA... So, following your logic... which ones are the true Ibanez? The Custom Shop ones (So the Prestige models, made in Japan, should be considered knock offs)? Or are the real ones those made in Japan (so the custom shop are inferior models)?

 

[Toso21]

Random reply. Like all imports over the USA production models, The guitars are good, It is usually the electronics that suffer. Every time I have bought the import, I want ti swap. out the pickups so with PRS, I am just staying with core. I bought an SE once and sold it pretty quickly.

 

[gtrdave]

if we come to the conclusion...

WE don't come to this conclusion. Only you do and it's a nonsense conclusion at best. Again, I've given you facts and history and you've given your opinion and these are not in alignment. PRS SE guitars are Paul Reed Smith guitars, period. The SE models are not the same as Core, CE and S2 models just as the S2 models are not the same as Core and CE models and so on. No one has said otherwise, lest they be incorrect, but the SE models are still licensed by and sold as PRS guitars.
I don't know what you don't understand about all of this. It's really very simple.

 

[Wyzard]

Don’t isolate one part of a comment. It has to be taken in context with everything else that I wrote.

A decent strawman should at least be able to stand up by itself.

WE don't come to this conclusion.

This.

 

[Mark Ray]

Seeing how PRS oversees this forum, maybe we could get Carlos and Paul to weigh in on this thread. After all it was Carlos who pushed for what became the SE line, over 20 years ago.

 

[RC Mike]

Some of you folks are getting way too emotional over a discussion that doesn’t change anything in your life one way or another. It’s just an intellectual exercise.

In 2007, Chrysler introduced their next generation of minivans. They had Chrysler Town and Country, Dodge Grand Caravan, and one other label—Volkswagen Routan. They all rolled off the same line, built by the same employees. The only difference was the name. Were the Routans Volkswagens? It depends on how you look at the world.

If I wanted my own guitar line, perhaps I’d approach PRS to make it for me. Say they had extra capacity in their US factory. I tell them what I want, which happens to be something that looks exactly like a Custom 24, but with RC Mike on the headstock. They agree, because they want to maximize the output of their factory. While they make them, they agree to put a banner saying RC Mike Guitars on the factory, so my social media team can get some footage of “my” factory. They sell me the guitars with RC Mike on the headstock. I sell them as RC Mike guitars, and talk about how they’re made to my design specifications under license by a partner.

Are they RC Mike guitars? I suppose the answer shows how a person interprets the world a bit.

 

[dogrocketp]

Why is there a problem, and why do you think that problem is a person? Is it because they have a different opinion?

SSS is right about the SEs. PRS doesn't build them. I'd wager that PRS didn't actually design them, either. PRS placed an order with a contract factory. Why? Because they want the profits of selling their name--not their guitars. Products like the SEs trade off of name and reputation. When it became more profitable to move production from Korea to Indonesia, that's what they did. In another 20 years, perhaps they'll be made in Africa or wherever cheap labor exists then.

Why do you think they lacked a signature on the headstock for so long? Because there were people inside PRS that were uncomfortable with the whole idea. As the company has changed, they've gotten pretty comfortable with the money that comes from the SE line.

Many of us have met Jack, and understand the time and effort he and other PRS people have put into making sure that the guitars are made the way Paul wants them. Paul has also been to the Cort factory, and made several visits to WMI when they were making the SE line. Jack goes regularly to Indonesia, and so do other factory employees, all with the stated goal of making the best, most affordable PRS possible. If his name is on it, it’s a PRS, period. There are still tremendous back orders from Maryland. They’re trying to carefully maintain their quality from top to bottom while keeping an eye on the market. Of course, they’ll miss once in a while. That’s why there are warranties. The stated goal is controlled growth. By the way, Jack is the chief operating officer, not ”just an employee.” And they are all PRS designed.

 

[FragileThunder]

*sigh*…I thought this thread had already died a thousand deaths, yet like the Ourobouros it continues devouring its own tail.

But because I can’t help myself, two things. One, as long as the prominent “SE” block script on the headstock is there, can we stop implying that Paul’s signature on the headstock in some way deceptive? Two, the recent argument seems to conveniently ignore MIJ and MIM Fenders saying “Fender” on the headstock with country/factory of origin being far less prominent than the SE badge.

Crap…I swore I wasn’t going to contribute to this thread anymore.

 

[Billiam]

This reminds me of a classic philosophical question that I'll paraphrase:

If The Argo, the boat used to capture the Golden Fleece, is preserved in Piraeus' harbor, and periodically worn-out or rotted wooden parts are replaced in the exact same way they were originally made, over time, every part will be replaced and none of the original parts will remain.

Is the boat still The Argo?

I'll pose my own question: If by law, treaty and recognized custom all over the world, PRS has the right to license its brand to anyone it wants to, is the resulting product a PRS?

Logically, the answer is yes.

Is it the ORIGINAL, Maryland PRS?

Logically the answer is, "That's a different question."

I think it's fair to distinguish between the licensed-build PRS' and the Maryland PRS'. But they're all PRS' once PRS licenses the branding.

Nonetheless, I can't answer the question about the boat.

I just wish to point out that Argo paradox and the PRS SE paradox are quite simple when seen in the context of what we might call the "human body paradox," i.e the simple fact that, with a very few exceptions, -- like, say, the cilia in one's inner ear and certain small segments of the brain, -- all the parts of the human body, or more precisely, all the cells of the human body die and are replaced about every seven? years or so. That means that by my age, 68, I should be building yet another set of cells to replace those of the last cycle, which replaced those of the previous one, back and back to the original ones I started with as a newborn. After 10 such replacements it is something of a wonder that accumulation of small corruptions in the DNA code transmitted have not caused me more physical damage than they actually have. In any case, to return to the question here, if I ask myself whether I am the same person now as I was at birth, or at least at some young age, it is hard to answer with either a definitive yes or a no. Certainly socially and legally I am considered to be the self-same man, even the very conferring of a name on me stresses such an "identity," but such a view leaves out both the many turnovers of my physical protoplasm mass just mentioned, as well as the many other variations brought about by experience, the accumulation of additional information, and transformations of beliefs, attitudes and opinion. My name and my [actually very limited] memories of earlier events forever call me back to the unitary hypothesis, but just how exactly who I am now relates back to all of those earlier experiences, just what "thread" strings them all together to form a whole is very hard to say.

 

[Joe sherman]

I drove a Chevrolet truck at one time that was not made in America. I have been assured by a local dealer that it was, and still is a fkn Chevrolet. What do you idiots have yo say about that? I play an SE because it is what I can afford. I for one applaud Paul Reed Smith for making it possible for me to have one of his guitars. Intellectual exercise my ass! You just want to rub it in my face that you can afford a more expensive guitar than I can. Down deep thats all there is to it. You know it as well as I do. Listen to me folks. This is at best, a divide and conquer effort. Please, somebody close this thread. I for one am sick of it. Thats the only reason I made this post. Threads like this make people like me that play an SE feel bad, or inferior. Is that why this forum was created?
If the Mods want to remove me from this forum because of my reply then so be it.

 

[RC Mike]

I drove a Chevrolet truck at one time that was not made in America. I have been assured by a local dealer that it was, and still is a fkn Chevrolet. What do you idiots have yo say about that? I play an SE because it is what I can afford. I for one applaud Paul Reed Smith for making it possible for me to have one of his guitars. Intellectual exercise my ass! You just want to rub it in my face that you can afford a more expensive guitar than I can. Down deep thats all there is to it. You know it as well as I do. Listen to me folks. This is at best, a divide and conquer effort. Please, somebody close this thread. I for one am sick of it. Thats the only reason I made this post. Threads like this make people like me that play an SE feel bad, or inferior. Is that why this forum was created?
If the Mods want to remove me from this forum because of my reply then so be it.

Why would you make personal attacks or take any of this personally? I don’t know you. I don’t care what you play, what you drive, or how much money you have. None of that matters to me—not one bit. I don’t care what you want to call your guitar, your car, or anything else. None of it changes anything in my life.

Why get upset and resort to personal attacks? Why do you feel bad or inferior? So what if I—a guy you don’t know from Adam—have an opinion that’s different than yours? That kind of emotionalism seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Wyzard]

I'm confused - people that seem to agree with each other are now attacking each other. Have all y'all been drinking?

Doug Chandler, who helped kickstart the whole process of producing the SE line was a good friend of mine going back to about 1978. I have nothing but respect for the genesis of the line; and although I only own core models myself, I wouldn't hesitate to use an SE if the occasion arose.


As part of a team that builds its own verdammte guitars, I say you can all stick that in your pipe and smoke it.