Mic

[gush]

Looking for suggestions.

Looking for what you folks would suggest I use for micing guitar amp/cab.

I have 57s, 58s, 609/906, i5, AT2020-2035, AKG 220/420

Looking for the MAGIC mic I guess

Thanks

 

[sergiodeblanc]

57 is a pretty classic choice. Maybe do that and the 2020, check for phase and combine them.

 

[matt3310]

57 and a Royer 121!

 

[László]

Gush, you know I've been recording seriously for 32 years. During that time, I've recorded in my studio, and studios I've booked with other engineers, many of them world-class rooms here and in Europe, such as Right Track, Ocean Way, Wisseloord, Plus XXX, etc. Every engineer tries dozens of mics to get a sound with a given cab, and the good ones have their own preferred combinations.

Truth: There's no magic bullet, mic, or combination of mics, for any voice or instrument. It doesn't exist, and trying to find it is a fool's errand...I know because I've been that fool!

What there are, are choices, combinations, distances from the cab, mic angle, sound of the room, you-name-it.

Every mic has its own frequency response, diaphragm speed, polar pattern, and the results depend on choice for a particular cab or what you want to hear. In fact, the whole signal chain matters - ears/brain of engineer, sound of the room, placement in the room, mic setup, mic, mic cable, mic preamp, outboard gear like compressor and EQ, etc.

Matt says 57/Royer 121. I've used that combination often - and it's great, but only IF you're looking for that particular sound!

Much more important than the particular mic is your intention for the outcome you want, partly a matter of gear choice, and partly a matter of the instrument, the room, and putting the damn thing in the right spot.

Nonetheless, I have a few suggestions:

1. The best investment in recording you can make is a good book on the topic, and then trying out ALL the suggestions. Unless you know HOW to get what you're looking for, it's hit-or-miss, even with the 'here's what everybody does' suggestions on the web.

2. Don't even consider using the cheap A-T condensers on an amp. Most condensers aren't great with amps in the first place, plus they overload easily, and the cheap ones are truly unlistenable unless you use them as room mics - most are too bright, too spitty, weak in the low end...I could go on. If you want a condenser for guitar amps, get into the range of something like an AKG 414 or the like, and now you're talking about a mic than can take electric guitar.

3. Try combinations of mics and see if their frequency responses combine in good ways. Make sure that the two (or more) mics are in phase. Move the mics around. So much of recording isn't about the gear, it's about your ear, and your technique/intentions.

4. Try putting the mics further away from the amps in a room. It's a more natural sound. Or combine a room mic with a close mic.

5. The 121 and 57 are a good combination, though I prefer a 121 on its own or as a room mic, further back from the amp to get a natural sound. I've had several 121s, as well as the phantom powered version. Great mics. I also use a Rode NTR phantom powered ribbon with amps, at a distance or as a room mic, because its frequency response is a lot better than the Royer. It's less money, it's very heavy so it needs a very strong mic stand.

6. I love the Sennheiser MD421 on amps. It's a more scooped sound than the 57. Or try them in combination. Tons of records were cut with 421s.

7. Every mic has a polar pattern, and sounds different depending on the angle of placement. Get to know the polar patterns, and how they sound when aimed in certain ways.

8. Some mic preamps LOVE electric guitar amps. Others do not. The good ones aren't cheap. I can highly recommend a few in the $1k range that will enhance rather than detract from what you're doing.

Happy to answer questions.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Depends on if you want a "character mic" or one that sounds pretty much like the speaker. For the later, an E906 is a great and easy choice. For the former, you have to choose the character you want, and so 57, 57+121, 421 etc. all are popular.

Edit: I see Les posted while I was writing this post.

 

[RickP]

Lots of good suggestions here. Les makes the good point that there is no perfect mic, only mics that sound a certain way when used in a particular manner. Still, history shows us something, and that is worthwhile in your search. Generally, if you need one mic for all-around micing at a low cost, the Shure SM57 is hard to beat. It can mic anything from vocals to amps to snare drums and do a decent job of it.

When you get to combinations, close micing with a dynamic and ribbon has become a classic combo, and using either/both of those with a large condenser(s) in the room gives the most options for getting a great final product. I’m no expert, and freely admit that most of what I know has been from watching experts at work. What I’ve seen is that combining close and room micing really opens the palette for a good mix engineer.

Rode makes some decent sounding, reasonably priced condensers that will let you experiment without dumping thousands up front. My fave large condenser is the Bock Audio iFet, an incredibly versatile and great sounding mic. I sold my U87Ai and 414s after I started using it, it’s that good to my ear. But you can get in the door much cheaper if you’re looking to experiment.

 

[gush]

I would NEVER ask this question on any other forum and you all know why.

I ask it here because I know I'll get good opinions and great information.

Thanks all.

 

[László]

I would NEVER ask this question on any other forum and you all know why.

I ask it here because I know I'll get good opinions and great information.

Thanks all.

I think step one is asking yourself this question:

"What, exactly, do I want to hear?"

Too many recordists really don't know what they want.

Issue two: Even many recordists who know pretty much what they want don't know how to get what they want, and won't experiment to do try and find it anyway. It's not that people are lazy, it's lack of knowing where to even start!

Too often people ignore the sound of a room, but even close-miked it matters. Why? Lots of reasons. Let's start with a mic's polar pattern; even a cardioid mic picks up sound from behind the mic. Then we can go on to ribbons, that have figure-8 patterns and pick up lots more room sound. Rooms also create nulls, peaks and standing waves at certain frequencies that are picked up by a mic, especially in the low end - remember that bass is omnidirectional, so chances are the mic will hear it.

You have to also understand proximity effect, the increase in bass the closer most mics are to a source, especially in cardioid modes, and learn how to work with that. Then there's phase, and all the hardware stuff.

One thing I do know: we do not listen to amps with our ears up against the grille cloth. Yes, close-miking amps is a sound, but it's not a natural sound. It also exaggerates proximity effect. This is a reason I like to use room mics, and/or mic the cab a little further back.

It bugs me that people will keep doing the same damn things over and over because 'everyone does it this way'. We're creative people, supposedly! Where's the damned creativity? There are ten billion zillion sounds out there, and as many ways to capture them, but people fall back on the predictable.

The groundbreakers don't do that. I make no claim to being a groundbreaker, because I don't see myself as a recording engineer, but dangit, Mr. Recording Engineer, have the courage and curiosity to try something a little different! [this comment is not directed at anyone here, it's a general-purpose rant]

Gosh, this rant has made me need a drink.

Just kidding about the drink. Sorta.

 

[gush]

I think step one is asking yourself this question:

"What, exactly, do I want to hear?"

Too many recordists really don't know what they want.

Issue two: Even many recordists who know pretty much what they want don't know how to get what they want, and won't experiment to do try and find it anyway. It's not that people are lazy, it's lack of knowing where to even start!

Too often people ignore the sound of a room, but even close-miked it matters. Why? Lots of reasons. Let's start with a mic's polar pattern; even a cardioid mic picks up sound from behind the mic. Then we can go on to ribbons, that have figure-8 patterns and pick up lots more room sound. Rooms also create nulls, peaks and standing waves at certain frequencies that are picked up by a mic, especially in the low end - remember that bass is omnidirectional, so chances are the mic will hear it.

You have to also understand proximity effect, the increase in bass the closer most mics are to a source, especially in cardioid modes, and learn how to work with that. Then there's phase, and all the hardware stuff.

One thing I do know: we do not listen to amps with our ears up against the grille cloth. Yes, close-miking amps is a sound, but it's not a natural sound. It also exaggerates proximity effect. This is a reason I like to use room mics, and/or mic the cab a little further back.

It bugs me that people will keep doing the same damn things over and over because 'everyone does it this way'. We're creative people, supposedly! Where's the damned creativity? There are ten billion zillion sounds out there, and as many ways to capture them, but people fall back on the predictable.

The groundbreakers don't do that. I make no claim to being a groundbreaker, because I don't see myself as a recording engineer, but dangit, Mr. Recording Engineer, have the courage and curiosity to try something a little different! [this comment is not directed at anyone here, it's a general-purpose rant]

Gosh, this rant has made me need a drink.

Just kidding about the drink. Sorta.

I had to laugh at your response.

My wife is a real estate broker and she is anal about paperwork, as she should be. She NEVER deviates from rules or protocol and it has served her very well over the years and has yielded a spotless record over the course if 29 years in the business.

Me on the other hand, I am the polar opposite of her. I'm always thinking there is a better way to do something no matter what I'm dealing with. This has served me well in my line of work as in making something work better than a manufacturer ever could.

Drives my wife NUTS.

We can't do projects together because she is a strict rule follower and I am a blatant rule bender.

 

[László]

I had to laugh at your response.

My wife is a real estate broker and she is anal about paperwork, as she should be. She NEVER deviates from rules or protocol and it has served her very well over the years and has yielded a spotless record over the course if 29 years in the business.

Me on the other hand, I am the polar opposite of her. I'm always thinking there is a better way to do something no matter what I'm dealing with. This has served me well in my line of work as in making something work better than a manufacturer ever could.

Drives my wife NUTS.

We can't do projects together because she is a strict rule follower and I am a blatant rule bender.

You're happy with who you are. I think that's great, and I think 100% that's why your wife loves you, despite the fact that you drive her nuts sometimes.

My wife and I drive each other nuts 24/7. We have absolutely nothing in common, except pretty much our whole adult lives.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

….We can't practice martial arts together because she is a strict rule follower and I am a blatant Air bender.

Hey you got your answer and Howie hasn’t de-railed this thread yet!

Sorry, not sorry

 

[gush]

Hey you got your answer and Howie hasn’t de-railed this thread yet!

Sorry, not sorry

Oh wait a minute, we practice tons of marital arts.

Sorry, not sorry!!!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Looking for what you folks would suggest I use for micing guitar amp/cab.

Uh, before I derail the thread, I see that I made an assumption before my earlier post, and would like to right that wrong. And we really need to know the answer to this question before any of us could get you an appropriate answer because the answer to this question would determine which is best, so....

What is the purpose of mic'ing this cab? Is it for live use? Is it for recording? I answered as if you were mic'ing it up for live use because you never said anything about recording, but that assumption could be wrong and it could change what I'd suggest. So... what is the mic for???

(Answer, I'll then give a suggestion which nobody cares about because Les is discussing mic's, and then we can get straight to the Julie Bowen pics that everyone but Alnus will be able to view).

 

[Tucson Thump]

Looking for suggestions.

Looking for what you folks would suggest I use for micing guitar amp/cab.

I have 57s, 58s, 609/906, i5, AT2020-2035, AKG 220/420

Looking for the MAGIC mic I guess

Thanks

You don't say whether this is just for recording but ....

From left field, may I recommend the UAD Ox Box. Assuming you are using a tube amp, this choice gives you a variety of mics and cabinets in a studio space. Variety of other features too.

I understand you asked about a magical mic, and with Les mentioning so many other factors I thought perhaps this horse of a different color might take you where you want to be.

And I might be a big pile of horse of a different color processed hay, but I thought I would throw it out there for consideration.

 

[gush]

You don't say whether this is just for recording but ....

From left field, may I recommend the UAD Ox Box. Assuming you are using a tube amp, this choice gives you a variety of mics and cabinets in a studio space. Variety of other features too.

I understand you asked about a magical mic, and with Les mentioning so many other factors I thought perhaps this horse of a different color might take you where you want to be.

And I might be a big pile of horse of a different color processed hay, but I thought I would throw it out there for consideration.

My question was geared towards home recording so any and all ideas are certainly welcome.

I am using tube amps. Mesa Stiletto , jcm800 studio head and marshall class 5 combo.

Five 4x12 cabs and two 2x12 cabs to play with. All cabs have different speakers.

One thing has me puzzled though, I put uk greenbacks in one of the marshall cabs and its really bright sounding. Too bright. It is a 1960a cab so it shouldn't really be so bright.

Maybe it just needs more break in not knowing the history of the used speakers??

 

[gush]

Uh, before I derail the thread, I see that I made an assumption before my earlier post, and would like to right that wrong. And we really need to know the answer to this question before any of us could get you an appropriate answer because the answer to this question would determine which is best, so....

What is the purpose of mic'ing this cab? Is it for live use? Is it for recording? I answered as if you were mic'ing it up for live use because you never said anything about recording, but that assumption could be wrong and it could change what I'd suggest. So... what is the mic for???

(Answer, I'll then give a suggestion which nobody cares about because Les is discussing mic's, and then we can get straight to the Julie Bowen pics that everyone but Alnus will be able to view).

I guess I didn't specify. Recording at home is the application but we can just skip to the Julie Bowen pics if you want.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I guess I didn't specify. Recording at home is the application but we can just skip to the Julie Bowen pics if you want.

While that's always the best option, I'd like to revise my answer first.

For live mic'ing, which is what I thought you were asking, the E906 is a runaway most popular option when this topic comes at at (cover your eyes, Les) The Gear Page. It is a very popular option for being the easiest way to capture the amp tones you hear and send them to FOH.

But, recording is a whole different thing and then you have a million factors. Les brings some valuable information, and also a perspective I strongly share, which is that "close micing" is not the best way to capture the amp tones you hear from your amps. And for exactly the reasons he said. We don't listen with our ears on the tweed. Proximity effect dramatically changes what we hear, and without significant recording modifications, the tone has no air, space and doesn't really "sit" in a mix. It just slams you in the face in the mix. You HAVE TO then start adding "room" and panning to try to place it in a mix. His ideas about micing from some distance first, and adding a more distant mic as well, give you a tone that will sit in the mix before you start adding verb and things to get it out of the front.

Also, close mic'ing is CRAZY sensitive to very slight movements of the mic position. 1/2" can change the tone dramatically. And after you've moved it around and heard just how much it changes... which spot do you pick? So, "distance mic'ing is the way to go, right?" Ha, as soon as you back the mic off the amp/cab, then you start introducing room and boundary reflections. Anyone heard of Jay Mitchell, and his "reflection free IRs?" So then ALL the things Les mentions about polar paterns and all that become very important. So mic'ing from back farther is not the right answer either, right?

I've spent hours and hours doing this stuff and so have some others here. I ended up here... the simplest way, is to close mic and dial out the bottom and top boosts of the proximity effect and add "room" in the mastering. The "most natural way" is to back the mics off and deal with the reflections in mastering. For live micing, drop the mic on the grill and find the right spot and use an E906. If you do the first one for recording, as Les mentions, you have to "fix" the tone in the DAW. If you do the mic from a bit further, it's less fixing later, and more natural sound you're putting into the DAW to start with. So while MANY MANY people close mic, even in the studio, I'm with Les. it's easier for a beginner to get a more natural (more what they hear in the room) tone, when starting with the mic's off the amp a bit. Now, where, and how far... well that's all part of the learning. There are some simple rules and honestly you don't have to back the mic off all that far to accomplish this. Room comes into play but can be dealt with...

Sorry, it's late. Too much useless info, I know, but I felt talkative tonight.

 

[RickP]

You don't say whether this is just for recording but ....

From left field, may I recommend the UAD Ox Box. Assuming you are using a tube amp, this choice gives you a variety of mics and cabinets in a studio space. Variety of other features too.

I understand you asked about a magical mic, and with Les mentioning so many other factors I thought perhaps this horse of a different color might take you where you want to be.

And I might be a big pile of horse of a different color processed hay, but I thought I would throw it out there for consideration.

GREAT suggestion. The sounds you get, combining close and room mics, and taming amp volume, is perfect for home studio work!

My question was geared towards home recording so any and all ideas are certainly welcome.

I am using tube amps. Mesa Stiletto , jcm800 studio head and marshall class 5 combo.

Five 4x12 cabs and two 2x12 cabs to play with. All cabs have different speakers.

One thing has me puzzled though, I put uk greenbacks in one of the marshall cabs and its really bright sounding. Too bright. It is a 1960a cab so it shouldn't really be so bright.

Maybe it just needs more break in not knowing the history of the used speakers??

The Greenbacks do relax a little, but the top end is part of their sound. By itself, it sounds raspy, but in a mix (recorded or live) it cuts through and sits well. Don’t use the EQ you would for other speakers like the Vintage 30, but listen to how that high end works in a mix before dialing it out. They are definitely their own sound, but a classic sound that I love!

 

[Boogie]

So much wisdom and great advice here from the pros! This is why I totally rip people off…

 

[László]

I've spent hours and hours doing this stuff and so have some others here. I ended up here... the simplest way, is to close mic and dial out the bottom and top boosts of the proximity effect and add "room" in the mastering. The "most natural way" is to back the mics off and deal with the reflections in mastering.

All good approaches (pretty sure you mean doing stuff to a single guitar track during mixing, not mastering, because by the mastering stage, it's too late to fix reverb on a guitar track without screwing everything else up).

However, I have a further suggestion - I should have mentioned it before. And it's pretty easy, takes about a minute:

1. Play some stuff on a looper, or have a friend play.

2. Put on a pair of closed-back headphones.

3. Pick up the mic stand and move the mic around while listening to the sound (I usually hold the boom for this). Keep it moving until you hear what you want.

4. Put the mic stand down at the spot where you've got what you want to hear.

5. Record.

I'd also like to suggest that reflections and reverberant room sound aren't necessarily a problem, they're often very desirable. You just have to put the mic in the right spot to get a good balance between direct and reflected sound.

There are no rules for this, but it helps an awful lot of the room itself has a nice sound. If the room is bad sounding, then, as DTR says, you've got a problem you have to fix in the mix, and you'll probably mess up the sound you worked hard to get.

People have sometimes asked about the lifelike sound I get with my orchestral compositions, but it's pretty simple: I buy orchestral sample libraries where the instruments playing the notes were recorded in good-sounding spaces, and make use of the mic positions on offer by blending them.

That same approach is what I try to accomplish in my own recordings.

If I'm combining close and room mics, I of course put them on separate tracks, and bring up the fader on the room mic only as much as needed to enhance the sound. Sometimes I use it a lot, sometimes a little, and sometimes it's better without the room mic. But on an important track, I always record one, because...why wouldn't I? Phase is important, but most DAWs and plugins allow for phase flip, and good mic preamps do as well. So if one mic is out of phase, just flip the phase. Easy.