The Mic-adontist Is In...Maybe

[László]

As stated in my first post, what I tried to accomplish was to get a very natural, "vintage recording" amp sound by miking the cab at a farther distance than I usually would. I decided to go for vibe over detail, and use a ribbon mic, no dynamic or condenser blended in.

So here's the setup. I used one of the recently-introduced Rode ribbon mics (I really like this mic!), three or so feet back from the amp, higher than the speaker but angled towards it. It's not on a cone, it's kind of in the middle between the speakers, and off-axis, almost the way you'd hear the cab in a room instead if as if you had your ear against the grille of the amp.

Also, I recorded at a pretty low volume to avoid overdriving the mic or the preamp - what I wanted to do was get a 60s clean sort of sound.

Being a ribbon, the mic is a little darker than the amp in the room, but it smooths out the tone and gives the recording kind of a vintage feel, with a rich low end, etc.



Here's the track, please excuse the playing, I just wanted to do something kind of laid-back and concentrate on the audio. New McCarty, neck pickup, full humbucking mode, DG30 amp. I turned the guitar volume down to about 4, and used a Suhr KokoBoost pedal to give the track that thing it adds, just a touch to push the amp into the edge of grit at certain points without tearing your head off.

I think the guitar sound is pretty good, and very different from my usual stuff. I purposely mixed the guitar loud and the drums and bass low so you could hear the tone of the guitar more clearly.

https://soundcloud.com/lschefman/mic-test-medium-distant-placement-on-guitar

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Sounds pretty nice! You use your Fulltone tape echo on there?

 

[László]

Sounds pretty nice! You use your Fulltone tape echo on there?

No, I just used the Eventide with a delay in ducking mode. Figured it'd be easier to hear the guitar that way.

Glad you like the way it sounded - I do need to tweak the placement, I'd like to get a titch more detail out of it, I probably had the mic at too extreme an angle to the cab, etc etc. But not a bad first attempt!

 

[FJ4]

Great Les!

 

[bodia]

Tasty! Love the tone.

 

[alantig]

Sorry about the back problem, Les. As someone who gets it myself at times, I feel your pain.

What you need is a better ass. For carrying purposes.

 

[László]

Thanks, guys! I'm still going to work some more on getting placement right, as I'd like a little more "presence" from the mic. I really had it pretty far off-axis this time.

Also, listening to the track again, it's a pretty lousy mix! And we won't even discuss my so-called guitar playing...more like an extended noodle, really. My excuse is that two of the fingers on my fretting hand are still numb from that damn surgery (but we all know that I suck pretty badly even when my hand works just fine!).

 

[László]

Sorry about the back problem, Les. As someone who gets it myself at times, I feel your pain.

What you need is a better ass. For carrying purposes.

That'd be a heck of a smelly and expensive gig bag - even if it's leather, you have to feed it!

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Also, I recorded at a pretty low volume to avoid overdriving the mic or the preamp - what I wanted to do was get a 60s clean sort of sound.
...
I purposely mixed the guitar loud and the drums and bass low so you could hear the tone of the guitar more clearly.

Tasty, indeed, sounds delicious. I think the mix is perfect, I got to hear the guitar, in all its glory, which was the intent. It also put me in mind of some of my favourite Sun Studio era recordings, back when they weren't afraid to put the voice or lead guitar front and center of the mix, as it should be for pop/instrumental music.

 

[Boogie]

Even with playback on an iPad, your point comes across clearly. I don't have a ribbon mic for experimentation, but you've piqued my interest to give this a try. It's nice to have an audio engineer - and his gear - again residing at Casa Boogie for a little while. :wink:

 

[László]

Even with playback on an iPad, your point comes across clearly. I don't have a ribbon mic for experimentation, but you've piqued my interest to give this a try. It's nice to have an audio engineer - and his gear - again residing at Casa Boogie for a little while. :wink:

Here's the thing about ribbon mics: as with all mics, they all sound quite different. So far, the ones I like best are this Rode NTR, the Royer R-121, the AEA R-84, and I have to also say that SE makes some very nice ribbons, especially their Neve model, but they have two mid-priced ribbons that are very good, and a smaller one of which is very low-priced. I believe that Audio Technica also has a new ribbon mic out. And the Blue ribbon mic sounds very good, too, but it's almost as pricy as the Royer.

Most low priced ribbons aren't worth what you save in outlay. They suck, these don't.

I bought the Rode really because the clips of the mic on their site were very impressive. It's a wonderful sounding mic, moderately priced for its very high quality (I think it's the most 'complete' ribbon sound I've ever heard, top to bottom), and this is important - it takes phantom power. Ribbons are very low-output mics, but a few of them now have phantom power, and that means you don't have to invest in an expensive specialty preamp. Any decent preamp will sound darn good with the mic.

Where my R-121 requires a high end preamp to sound its best, with switching for impedance, this mic just plugs in anywhere, and sounds great. The high end is more articulate than the Royer, and I find that it sounds great with an acoustic guitar and vocals also. And it's $450 less expensive than the Royer. All-around, the best value I've ever had in any mic, of any kind!

Also, this Rode has built in shock mounting that's the real deal. Ribbons are VERY susceptible to footfalls and other mechanically induced noises, so a good shock mount is a good thing. I had to pay another $275 for the Royer's shock mount, which brought the price of the mic up to over $1550. The Rode's got it built in for $800, and there's no fiddling with mounting a shock, etc.

My only beef about the mic is that it comes in a cardboard box (though it has a nicely fitted and padded plastic liner) instead of a wood box. The box itself is beautifully designed, very Apple-like packaging, but it's not going to hold up like a wooden box or hardshell flight case, obviously. So at some point, I'll have to buy a hard case for it. Still, that's a 50 buck item at most, so...as I said, great value in this mic. It's a heavy mic, so it requires a very good mic stand, such as an Access or Latch Lake. The weight is due to the fact that it has a large and expensive transformer built into the mic, that helps give it character, as in a guitar amp with a large transformer.

The self noise of this ribbon is also very, very low. So you can goose the EQ any way you like, and it doesn't sound noisy.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Interesting test, Les. When I first read the OP, I thought you'd move the mic back maybe 18-24." At three feet, it might start to get more like a room mic... at least in that outside influences become more prevalent. Especially with cab not up off the floor. I seems that might become more apparent when you start chugging on the lower strings some. I wonder what 3 feet would sound like with the amp up 18-24" off the floor. What you did sounds real nice. On my laptop with cheap headphones (listening at lunch time at work) it seems to lack some presence. Does sound good though.

When speaking about a vintage vibe, there are obviously a few things which influence what we perceive that to be. Lots of "warm" old tube equipment used back then. Mics back farther. Older tube amps which were many times softer sounding amps (many operated in triode mode and had alnico speakers). Etc. Etc. The ribbon seems a good choice when going for that vibe. I'll be following this to see any further refinements and the results.

 

[László]

Interesting test, Les. When I first read the OP, I thought you'd move the mic back maybe 18-24." At three feet, it might start to get more like a room mic... at least in that outside influences become more prevalent. .

Well, it was an experiment, and I had to start somewhere. I basically set it up by eyeballing it after finding an old picture of a 1965 Rolling Stones session, where they had mic stands about the same distance I guesstimated from the cabs (hard to tell from an old pic, obviously).

Today I measured the actual distance in case i ever want to reproduce what I did, and it was closer to 2 1/2 than three feet back, but...yes, it did begin to sound rather "roomy." That's kind of what I wanted to start with as a reference point.

The reason the cab isn't up off the floor (I usually record it on a stand plus a Great Gramma isolation rig) is simple: I threw my back out the other day, and didn't want to lift it. I also didn't isolate the mic from the room sound with the gobo I often use. You can see that the gobo is behind the cab in the shot of the setup. The gobo offers really good isolation when I use it. So there's that as well.

Also...the mic is at a pretty extreme angle. That makes a difference. I kept the mic at that angle because that's the angle they used in that old Stones studio shot. I think they were really trying to tame the harshness of those old amps.

I've since moved the mic stand closer, and the mic nearer the speaker, changed the angle, and I'll see what happens when I record it. If I like it, I'll make a note of the angle, distance, etc.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Looking forward to hearing it

 

[László]

Looking forward to hearing it

Thanks! Should be a fun little project!

My trick afterward will be stereo miking using condensers in a Nederlandse Omroep Stichting setup on a mic bar, where everything is measured down to the millimeter. This is my favorite way I'm recording my acoustic lately, it sounds like you're in the room with the guitar; I can't wait to hear what an amp sounds like recorded this way (maybe it will be great, maybe it will suck, but at least I'll know!).

And you guys think you know how to have fun!

 

[Boogie]

Thanks! Should be a fun little project!

My trick afterward will be stereo miking using condensers in a Nederlandse Omroep Stichting setup on a mic bar, where everything is measured down to the millimeter. This is my favorite way I'm recording my acoustic lately, it sounds like you're in the room with the guitar; I can't wait to hear what an amp sounds like recorded this way (maybe it will be great, maybe it will suck, but at least I'll know!).

And you guys think you know how to have fun!

If everything is carefully measured, how do you keep from moving the acoustic guitar during playing? I can't hold that still.

 

[László]

If everything is carefully measured, how do you keep from moving the acoustic guitar during playing? I can't hold that still.

Simple. The most important measurements are the distance between the mic capsules, which must be 20cm, and the angle of the mic capsules, which must be 90 degrees.

In terms of distance between the instrument(s) and the mic bar, that's going to vary between different mics, instruments or ensembles (the technique works great for any acoustic instruments and even orchestras), and it's trial and error. However...once you've got distance to the mics figured out, you want to have a note of where to set the mics up next time, and in case you need to do touch-ups or overdubs later. So measuring and notes are helpful.

I use a cloth tape measure to make these notes and verify the distance between the mics on the bar. Then if a client wants a change, or an overdub, the sound is consistent.

So measurement of distance from the instrument is only a starting point.

The technique has a very wide sweet spot, and relatively small movements made while playing don't screw it up. In fact, the sweet spot is much, much wider than mono miking. They record whole orchestras using this technique (obviously, further back to capture the whole ensemble).

 

[vchizzle]

I think I almost prefer this type of miking for that type of tone. Sounds good!

 

[László]

I think I almost prefer this type of miking for that type of tone. Sounds good!

Thanks Vaughn!

It definitely has a smooth, vintage vibe for that tone. Glad you like it!

 

[László]

So the mic-adontist read another Glyn Johns interview and learned that his instincts weren't too far off!

How'd McCartney's amp get miked up on Paperback Writer (an iconic bass sound)? U67, a couple of feet back from the amp. How about John Paul Jones of Zep and John Entwistle of the Who? 414, a couple of feet back from the cab. Johns said he mostly uses 414s on bass that way.

Hmmm...

Pete Townshend's Hiwatts? U67, a couple of feet back from the amp!

I think we're onto something here...these were all terrific sounding records with very superb guitar and bass sounds. I've been a lazy SOB and have been taking my bass direct for, well, at least 15 years. No wonder I have to fuss forever with getting bass to sit in mixes to achieve classic kinds of vibe! I wish I still had my Mesa Bass 400+ now...dangit.