Les' Wildly Speculative Guitar Thought Of The Day

László

Too Many Notes
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So here's the thing: in recent years, experience with various guitar finishes has convinced me that they contribute subtly to the sound of the instrument. I once felt differently about this, but I've changed my mind as experience keeps teaching me new things.

One of the things that convinced me of this is that I was a longtime Gibson player, and still have a '65 SG Special, a guitar whose tone I've got 50 years of experience listening to.

The SG sounded different from my PRS guitars for a ton of reasons, but there was always a sonic signature/overtone I heard on Gibsons no matter which model I played. I didn't hear this overtone on a PRS until one day I played a DGT that was finished in nitro (early DGTs were nitro).

Damned if that DGT didn't have that familiar overtone, even strummed acoustically. It made me start thinking I still had a lot to learn about the effect of finishes on instruments, and that I was wrong to be so quick to rush to judgment on the question of nitro finishes affecting tone.

More recent experience with both a V12 SC58 and my nitro Hammer of the Gods McCarty Singlecut reinforced my feeling about this. The nitro finished CU24 30th I have has even more so (I should point out that I like the tone of V12 instruments a lot, too!).

There's a lot of guesswork as to why this difference exists in various circles of guitardom, but a recent short article in Guitarist about nitro finishes speculates that they somehow let the instrument "breathe." This strikes me as nonsense, though we've all heard it many times.

It should be fairly obvious that instruments don't take air in and out as they are being played and vibrate. I think air and supposed porosity has nothing to do with it. A new nitro finish isn't porous, and it still sounds a little different from an acrylic finish. And it's not as though any finishes form a loose shell around the guitar that is not directly attached to the wood so that the wood and the finish vibrate separately. On the contrary, the finish is stuck to the wood. The wood and the finish vibrate together.

So why do finishes have characteristic sounds?

Here's my Wildly Speculative Theory of the Day: It's not about the finish allowing the wood of the guitar to somehow vibrate more freely. It's about the resonance of the finish itself contributing to the overall tone of the instrument.

Think about it - A plastic finish is a solid. Even nitro is a plastic finish whose solids are cellulose instead of other materials. Seems to me that all solids have various, and different, resonances depending on materials. Why should solid, dried paint be any different?

If you tap your finger on various different types of thin plastic, say a polyacrylic CD case, or a polyethelene CD case, both being of similar thickness, but different plastics, and you will observe that they resonate differently. I remember working on one of my old Rickenbackers with its whatever-stuff-they-use pick guard off, and thinking how much the pick guard's resonance affected the specific tone of the guitar. In fact, a Strat with a wooden pick guard does sound subtly different from a Strat fitted with the standard plastic pick guard. So it isn't just the matter of a body cavity being covered.

I don't recall how much the paint on a PRS weighs, I think someone mentioned it on one of the other forums a few years back, but I was surprised at how much paint there is on a guitar. It's substantial enough to be resonant.

So while I do not believe that the different finishes somehow let the guitar "breathe" or vibrate differently, I think that when dry, they might have their own resonances that make a contribution to the overall resonance of the instrument. And of course, these resonances would affect the resonances of the wood and metal parts as they all interact with each other creating slightly different harmonic signatures.

That's what I think we're hearing with different finishes (assuming that we hear them at all, which I do believe if one knows what to listen for). The different harmonic signatures are these various types of plastic.

Discuss gently amongst yourselves. ;)
 
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I don't know anything about that, but alway wondered why PRS touted the V12, but always used Nitro for the highest end guitars. That tells me that PRS thinks there is some (maybe resonance) benefits to Nitro. I, too, am speculating.
 
I don't think they use nitro on (only) "the highest end guitars." They use it on some limited runs, the DGT, and some Private Stock builds. But I have a PS that's "just" poly, and I sincerely doubt that if it were nitro it would sound any better...
 
Maybe.

I have a guitar with a top covered in Gucci fabric and a guitar with a top covered in LV vinyl and didn't notice a tonal change. Especially when amplified. But, you know, maybe I can't hear all that well...
 
I don't think they use nitro on (only) "the highest end guitars." They use it on some limited runs, the DGT, and some Private Stock builds. But I have a PS that's "just" poly, and I sincerely doubt that if it were nitro it would sound any better...

It wouldn't sound better. It might sound a little bit different.
 
Can't wait until the next iteration of this thread where we discuss which color sounds best. I know of one vote against blue...
 
This is the vibroacoustic engineer in me talking.

Fabric of any kind is a porous flexible surface. I wouldn't expect that to do anything but add some damping.

For the finishes, those dipped in glass polyurethane finishes are pretty stiff whereas nitrocellulose finishes are much softer. For those, I would expect to hear something slightly different between similar guitars as result of slight stiffness changes.

I have noticed that there is a difference between guitars that have gold plated hardware and just plain nickel plated. Gold sounds really nosy to me, and I can't stand it.
 
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My .02 regarding nitro on the PS instruments is that there are likely more costs involved in OSHA and EPA compliance. The interesting thing about nitrocellulose is that is essentially slightly modified wood and in personal opinion is the most likely to "sound" like wood.
 
Nitrocellous is considered a plastic. It's an organic one. In fact, both poly and nitro come from plants, the plants were just killed at different times and were subject to different processes post mortem.
 
Nitrocellous is considered a plastic. It's an organic one. In fact, both poly and nitro come from plants, the plants were just killed at different times and were subject to different processes post mortem.

Um, I suspect that CSI (GSI?) just stepped in.
 
Nitrocellous is considered a plastic. It's an organic one. In fact, both poly and nitro come from plants, the plants were just killed at different times and were subject to different processes post mortem.

Whether or not nitrocellulose is considered a plastic, Cellulose is a principal material of.....wood! making nitrate esters changes its properties, but it is still mostly made of wood! I haven not found a reference for nitrocellulose being considered a plastic nor have I seen one linking polyurethane to plant material, can you provide one?
 
Whether or not nitrocellulose is considered a plastic, Cellulose is a principal material of.....wood! making nitrate esters changes its properties, but it is still mostly made of wood! I haven not found a reference for nitrocellulose being considered a plastic nor have I seen one linking polyurethane to plant material, can you provide one?
Nitrocellulose is one of the earliest plastics. Invented in 1862 by Alexander Parkes and marketed under the name Parkesine. It was one of the first man-made plastics. It was organic one and not a synthetic one. The first nitrocellulose didn't come from wood pulp, but the nitrating of cotton. It used to be used as an explosive or film stock. Guitar picks(i.e. old Fender ones) were even made out of the material, and they burned energetically.

Polyurethane comes from a reaction between Di-isocyanate and polyols. The di-isocyanate that is used is MDI which comes from the nitrating of benzene which is a petrochemical that comes from ancient microscopic algae(i.e. plants) that have been converted by geochemical processes over millions of years.
 
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Nitrocellulose is one of the earliest plastics. Invented in 1862 by Alexander Parkes and marketed under the name Parkesine. It was one of the first man-made plastics. It was organic one and not a synthetic one. The first nitrocellulose didn't come from wood pulp, but the nitrating of cotton. It used to be used as an explosive or film stock. Guitar picks(i.e. old Fender ones) were even made out of the material, and they burned energetically.

Polyurethane comes from a reaction between Di-isocyanate and polyols. The di-isocyanate that is used is MDI which comes from the nitrating of benzene which is a petrochemical that comes from ancient microscopic algae(i.e. plants) that have been converted by geochemical processes over millions of years.

Benzene is a petroleum product and bears no resemblance to the structure of wood. Nitrocellulose is an ingredient in celluloid (a plastic). The plasticizers have to be mixed in before it becomes a plastic. I will admit that some plasticizer is mixed in for finishing. The overall point is that nitrocellulose is very close in chemical structure to cellulose, the principal component of wood. The cellulose that comprises wood is the same as cellulose that comprises cotton. I am not going to compare with petroleum products (that yes came from algae over millions of years), as they bear no resemblance to the chemical structure of the principal component of wood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid
 
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Cellulose:

pict6.jpg


Nitrocellulose:

figure_NC.jpg


Look similar? Not to a chemist.

It is dangerous to equate the properties of the precursors of a reaction to the properties of the result.

Consider that most infants survive on nothing but milk and oxygen for several months and grow remarkably larger in the process. The stuff that goes in (milk, oxygen) gets converted to many, many different compounds and proteins, most of which are decidedly not milk-like or oxygen-like.

The notion that nitrocellulose is more wood-like in its properties than other plastics with different precursors reminds me of the claims homeopathic medicine buffs make about dilutions.
 
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Cellulose:

pict6.jpg


Nitrocellulose:

figure_NC.jpg

Right the alcohols within cellulose are converted to nitrate esters. Notice the structure is not modified other that and in fact the amount of nitration can be and often is very much in complete. You have shown the complete nitration product (there is an error in your structure of nitrocellulose at the anomeric centers and position linking, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cellulose_nitrate.svg), but it doesn't change my thesis. Whether anybody agrees with it is irrelevant anyway.





Bottom line: Les seems to think there may be something to nitrocellulose, I agree, and PRS states it explicitly in the FAQ's


What kind of finish does PRS use?

In our history, most of our instruments have been finished with a polyester basecoat and acrylic urethane topcoat. We feel acrylic urethane looks and feels the close to the old nitrocellulose finishes but avoided the issue of future finish checking. Several PRS models, including our Sunburst, Satin, Modern Eagles, and DGT models use a nitrocellulose finish in order to provide the classic feel and tone of vintage instruments.

In 2010, PRS Guitars introduced its new V12 finish. This finish was developed over 12 years, and it is intended as a midpoint between nitro and acrylic with a classic feel all its own. V12 is extremely thin to allow the guitar to resonate, but it is still incredibly durable with no risk of reacting to leather or guitar stands in a negative way.
 
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Benzene Ring:

Benzene_ring.gif


MDI:

V27CI02.gif


Gee, other than the double bonds, they're all practically rings of carbon atoms at the molecular level. Of course, it's what's attached to those rings that creates the difference in the properties in those long polymeric chains.

I really do love PRS V12.
 
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Benzene Ring:

Benzene_ring.gif


Gee, other than the double bonds, they're all practically rings of carbon atoms at the molecular level. Of course, it's what's attached to those rings that creates the difference in the properties in those long polymeric chains.

I'm abandoning this thread. You win whatever there was to win.
 
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Neither urethane or v12 would be considered a top finish in acoustic guitars where as Les himself is fond of saying the amp drives most of the tone. Varnish is a $1k upgrade on an acoustic guitar. Varnish is apparently alkyd resin based.
 
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