Humbucker question. Would the same 10k pickup With an Alnico 4 or 5 magnet have more output than that same pickup with an Alnico 2 magnet?

Swapping magnets does effect perceived output, but it is more useful for tone shaping. Each grade of magnet has different tonal characteristics that you can use to shape the pickups tone. You haven't mentioned if it's the bridge or neck pickup or the Ohms output of said so my reply may seem a little and long winded.

Alnico 2 magnets are the 2nd lowest strength magnet in the Alnico range which results in fantastic vintage dynamics and flavour. This magnet can be used in either position (Bridge or Neck) but is best used as a bridge pickup magnet where you tend to get a brighter and tighter tone naturally – the warm Alnico 2 helps tame the bite a bit. An Alnico 2 magnet will tend to get mushy and dark sounding in a neck position humbucker. This is one of my favourite bridge position magnets.

Alnico 3, the lowest in strength of Alnico magnets, is similar to the Alnico 2 but tends to generate more treble, slightly scooped mids and a softer-yet-tighter low end. This is my favourite magnet for a neck position humbucker, especially when looking for that aged PAF tone. An Alnico 3 humbucker in the neck position typically has a flute-like woody tone with plenty of clarity and allows the guitar’s character to come through quite nicely – I’ve personally noticed a P90-ish type of tone when used in the neck position. It works excellent as a bridge humbucker magnet as well when you’re looking for that vintage PAF tone on the cleaner side. This magnet in the bridge position can beef right up with slightly overwound coils for a warm compressed rock tone with a bit less edge than an Alnico 2 yet retain some shimmer on top giving a fairly 3D quality to the tone.

Alnico 4 magnets generate a flatter “EQ” overall which can sometimes sound bland to some players, yet have been the hidden little secret for others. This magnet tends to sit between the Alnico 2 and Alnico 5 in magnetic strength and tone – rounder lows than a 5, tighter lows than a 2 with crisper highs than a 2. With the ALnico 4’s flatter “EQ”, the guitar’s true colour and character really shine through – this is where Alnico 4’s can sometimes sound bland. Some guitars just simply don’t work with Alnico 4 magnets, but when a guitar works with Alnico 4 it’s pure PAF magic. In my personal opinion, these magnets work best in a naturally big-sounding guitars.

Alnico 5 is the strongest of the most commonly used magnets and has been a very popular choice of magnet. Being the stronger magnet in the range, it tends to generate more output, tighter low end, scooped mids and sharper treble bite. These work great in a low-wind neck pickup for very crisp tone. When in a hotter neck pickup, the Alnico 5 may lean towards the boomy side which can overpower the highs. In a bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 will work best in a hotter wound pickup where you’d want to bring in more low end and shave off the highs to tame the bite and avoid the dreaded ice-pick-to-the-ear-drum. In a lower wind bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 may sound thin and brittle compared to an Alnico 2 or 4.

Unoriented magnets like UOA5's are a great alternative for 2's and in geneeral when talking about vintage PAF this is is the magnet often referenced as a A5 magnet. Both magnets are the same strength but the way the magnets are made differs. Standard magnets go through a process that lines up the magnet molecules North to South whereas ALL UNORIENTED magnets skip this part of manufactor so the molecules are random and haphazard in the magnets structure. This causes the magnet to sound a little smoother in the treble and rounder in the bass than their oriented alternative. The manufacturing proccess is cheaper for Un-Oriented magnets and so Gibson would of sourced these over oriented ones.

While there are unoriented version of most magnets available I personally only use UOA5's.

Two relative newcomers on the market are Alnico 6 and Alnico 8. Both of these magnets are like A5's on steroids and work great replacing ceramic magnets in high wind pickups.
 
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Swapping magnets does effect perceived output, but it is more useful for tone shaping. Each grade of magnet has different tonal characteristics that you can use to shape the pickups tone. You haven't mentioned if it's the bridge or neck pickup or the Ohms output of said so my reply may seem a little and long winded.

Alnico 2 magnets are the 2nd lowest strength magnet in the Alnico range which results in fantastic vintage dynamics and flavour. This magnet can be used in either position (Bridge or Neck) but is best used as a bridge pickup magnet where you tend to get a brighter and tighter tone naturally – the warm Alnico 2 helps tame the bite a bit. An Alnico 2 magnet will tend to get mushy and dark sounding in a neck position humbucker. This is one of my favourite bridge position magnets.

Alnico 3, the lowest in strength of Alnico magnets, is similar to the Alnico 2 but tends to generate more treble, slightly scooped mids and a softer-yet-tighter low end. This is my favourite magnet for a neck position humbucker, especially when looking for that aged PAF tone. An Alnico 3 humbucker in the neck position typically has a flute-like woody tone with plenty of clarity and allows the guitar’s character to come through quite nicely – I’ve personally noticed a P90-ish type of tone when used in the neck position. It works excellent as a bridge humbucker magnet as well when you’re looking for that vintage PAF tone on the cleaner side. This magnet in the bridge position can beef right up with slightly overwound coils for a warm compressed rock tone with a bit less edge than an Alnico 2 yet retain some shimmer on top giving a fairly 3D quality to the tone.

Alnico 4 magnets generate a flatter “EQ” overall which can sometimes sound bland to some players, yet have been the hidden little secret for others. This magnet tends to sit between the Alnico 2 and Alnico 5 in magnetic strength and tone – rounder lows than a 5, tighter lows than a 2 with crisper highs than a 2. With the ALnico 4’s flatter “EQ”, the guitar’s true colour and character really shine through – this is where Alnico 4’s can sometimes sound bland. Some guitars just simply don’t work with Alnico 4 magnets, but when a guitar works with Alnico 4 it’s pure PAF magic. In my personal opinion, these magnets work best in a naturally big-sounding guitars.

Alnico 5 is the strongest of the most commonly used magnets and has been a very popular choice of magnet. Being the stronger magnet in the range, it tends to generate more output, tighter low end, scooped mids and sharper treble bite. These work great in a low-wind neck pickup for very crisp tone. When in a hotter neck pickup, the Alnico 5 may lean towards the boomy side which can overpower the highs. In a bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 will work best in a hotter wound pickup where you’d want to bring in more low end and shave off the highs to tame the bite and avoid the dreaded ice-pick-to-the-ear-drum. In a lower wind bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 may sound thin and brittle compared to an Alnico 2 or 4.

Unoriented magnets like UOA5's are a great alternative for 2's and in geneeral when talking about vintage PAF this is is the magnet often referenced as a A5 magnet. Both magnets are the same strength but the way the magnets are made differs. Standard magnets go through a process that lines up the magnet molecules North to South whereas ALL UNORIENTED magnets skip this part of manufactor so the molecules are random and haphazard in the magnets structure. This causes the magnet to sound a little smoother in the treble and rounder in the bass than their oriented alternative. The manufacturing proccess is cheaper for Un-Oriented magnets and so Gibson would of sourced these over oriented ones.

While there are unoriented version of most magnets available I personally only use UOA5's.

Two relative newcomers on the market are Alnico 6 and Alnico 8. Both of these magnets are like A5's on steroids and work great replacing ceramic magnets in high wind pickups.

Swapping magnets does effect perceived output, but it is more useful for tone shaping. Each grade of magnet has different tonal characteristics that you can use to shape the pickups tone. You haven't mentioned if it's the bridge or neck pickup or the Ohms output of said so my reply may seem a little and long winded.

Alnico 2 magnets are the 2nd lowest strength magnet in the Alnico range which results in fantastic vintage dynamics and flavour. This magnet can be used in either position (Bridge or Neck) but is best used as a bridge pickup magnet where you tend to get a brighter and tighter tone naturally – the warm Alnico 2 helps tame the bite a bit. An Alnico 2 magnet will tend to get mushy and dark sounding in a neck position humbucker. This is one of my favourite bridge position magnets.

Alnico 3, the lowest in strength of Alnico magnets, is similar to the Alnico 2 but tends to generate more treble, slightly scooped mids and a softer-yet-tighter low end. This is my favourite magnet for a neck position humbucker, especially when looking for that aged PAF tone. An Alnico 3 humbucker in the neck position typically has a flute-like woody tone with plenty of clarity and allows the guitar’s character to come through quite nicely – I’ve personally noticed a P90-ish type of tone when used in the neck position. It works excellent as a bridge humbucker magnet as well when you’re looking for that vintage PAF tone on the cleaner side. This magnet in the bridge position can beef right up with slightly overwound coils for a warm compressed rock tone with a bit less edge than an Alnico 2 yet retain some shimmer on top giving a fairly 3D quality to the tone.

Alnico 4 magnets generate a flatter “EQ” overall which can sometimes sound bland to some players, yet have been the hidden little secret for others. This magnet tends to sit between the Alnico 2 and Alnico 5 in magnetic strength and tone – rounder lows than a 5, tighter lows than a 2 with crisper highs than a 2. With the ALnico 4’s flatter “EQ”, the guitar’s true colour and character really shine through – this is where Alnico 4’s can sometimes sound bland. Some guitars just simply don’t work with Alnico 4 magnets, but when a guitar works with Alnico 4 it’s pure PAF magic. In my personal opinion, these magnets work best in a naturally big-sounding guitars.

Alnico 5 is the strongest of the most commonly used magnets and has been a very popular choice of magnet. Being the stronger magnet in the range, it tends to generate more output, tighter low end, scooped mids and sharper treble bite. These work great in a low-wind neck pickup for very crisp tone. When in a hotter neck pickup, the Alnico 5 may lean towards the boomy side which can overpower the highs. In a bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 will work best in a hotter wound pickup where you’d want to bring in more low end and shave off the highs to tame the bite and avoid the dreaded ice-pick-to-the-ear-drum. In a lower wind bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 may sound thin and brittle compared to an Alnico 2 or 4.

Unoriented magnets like UOA5's are a great alternative for 2's and in geneeral when talking about vintage PAF this is is the magnet often referenced as a A5 magnet. Both magnets are the same strength but the way the magnets are made differs. Standard magnets go through a process that lines up the magnet molecules North to South whereas ALL UNORIENTED magnets skip this part of manufactor so the molecules are random and haphazard in the magnets structure. This causes the magnet to sound a little smoother in the treble and rounder in the bass than their oriented alternative. The manufacturing proccess is cheaper for Un-Oriented magnets and so Gibson would of sourced these over oriented ones.

While there are unoriented version of most magnets available I personally only use UA5's.

Two relative newcomers on the market are Alnico 6 and Alnico 8. Both of these magnets are like A5's on steroids and work great replacing ceramic magnets in high wind pickups.
If I typed all of that out, I would also definitely post it up twice.:)
Lots of good info in there.
 
I like Fullmoon's post. I agree with a lot of what he had to say. Where we might differ it probably just comes down to personal taste.

If I'm going to put an alnico 3 magnet in a humbucker I'll use it in the neck because it gets a clear, open sound that's great for jazzy chords.

Anyways, an alnico 5 magnet will give your alnico 2 pickup more bass, more treble and less of that spongey quality alnico 2 gives a pickup. The sound would probably be perceived as being slightly louder or higher in output. Perhaps more "aggressive".

I usually use roughcast magnets rather than polished. They seem to give the tone more texture, although only the wide flat surface will be rough. The thin 1/8" contact surfaces will be polished.

I am one of those who find alnico 4 a little bland, especially in a solid body guitar. However, the Tom Holmes pickups in my semi-hollow ES-335 are alnico 4 and I love them.

The same magnet type from two different sources or manufacturers can sound different. So an A5 from one source might sound different than one from another source.

I used to buy my magnets from AddictionFX. There may be better sources now.

Throbak would be most expensive but might give the best vintage sound. Those guys are pretty fussy!

But for experimenting, AddictionFX is a good source.

I'd try roughcast alnico 4 and 5. Try oriented alnico 5 as well as unoriented alnico 5 and see what you like best.

I'm not a fan of ceramic magnets but you might want to try one. Carlos Santana used the Duncan Distortion for quite a few years and it's a Duncan JB (which usually has a5) with a ceramic magnet instead of alnico 5.

Magnet swapping is a great way to dial in your sound!
 
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Swapping magnets does effect perceived output, but it is more useful for tone shaping. Each grade of magnet has different tonal characteristics that you can use to shape the pickups tone. You haven't mentioned if it's the bridge or neck pickup or the Ohms output of said so my reply may seem a little and long winded.

Alnico 2 magnets are the 2nd lowest strength magnet in the Alnico range which results in fantastic vintage dynamics and flavour. This magnet can be used in either position (Bridge or Neck) but is best used as a bridge pickup magnet where you tend to get a brighter and tighter tone naturally – the warm Alnico 2 helps tame the bite a bit. An Alnico 2 magnet will tend to get mushy and dark sounding in a neck position humbucker. This is one of my favourite bridge position magnets.

Alnico 3, the lowest in strength of Alnico magnets, is similar to the Alnico 2 but tends to generate more treble, slightly scooped mids and a softer-yet-tighter low end. This is my favourite magnet for a neck position humbucker, especially when looking for that aged PAF tone. An Alnico 3 humbucker in the neck position typically has a flute-like woody tone with plenty of clarity and allows the guitar’s character to come through quite nicely – I’ve personally noticed a P90-ish type of tone when used in the neck position. It works excellent as a bridge humbucker magnet as well when you’re looking for that vintage PAF tone on the cleaner side. This magnet in the bridge position can beef right up with slightly overwound coils for a warm compressed rock tone with a bit less edge than an Alnico 2 yet retain some shimmer on top giving a fairly 3D quality to the tone.

Alnico 4 magnets generate a flatter “EQ” overall which can sometimes sound bland to some players, yet have been the hidden little secret for others. This magnet tends to sit between the Alnico 2 and Alnico 5 in magnetic strength and tone – rounder lows than a 5, tighter lows than a 2 with crisper highs than a 2. With the ALnico 4’s flatter “EQ”, the guitar’s true colour and character really shine through – this is where Alnico 4’s can sometimes sound bland. Some guitars just simply don’t work with Alnico 4 magnets, but when a guitar works with Alnico 4 it’s pure PAF magic. In my personal opinion, these magnets work best in a naturally big-sounding guitars.

Alnico 5 is the strongest of the most commonly used magnets and has been a very popular choice of magnet. Being the stronger magnet in the range, it tends to generate more output, tighter low end, scooped mids and sharper treble bite. These work great in a low-wind neck pickup for very crisp tone. When in a hotter neck pickup, the Alnico 5 may lean towards the boomy side which can overpower the highs. In a bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 will work best in a hotter wound pickup where you’d want to bring in more low end and shave off the highs to tame the bite and avoid the dreaded ice-pick-to-the-ear-drum. In a lower wind bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 may sound thin and brittle compared to an Alnico 2 or 4.

Unoriented magnets like UOA5's are a great alternative for 2's and in geneeral when talking about vintage PAF this is is the magnet often referenced as a A5 magnet. Both magnets are the same strength but the way the magnets are made differs. Standard magnets go through a process that lines up the magnet molecules North to South whereas ALL UNORIENTED magnets skip this part of manufactor so the molecules are random and haphazard in the magnets structure. This causes the magnet to sound a little smoother in the treble and rounder in the bass than their oriented alternative. The manufacturing proccess is cheaper for Un-Oriented magnets and so Gibson would of sourced these over oriented ones.

While there are unoriented version of most magnets available I personally only use UOA5's.

Two relative newcomers on the market are Alnico 6 and Alnico 8. Both of these magnets are like A5's on steroids and work great replacing ceramic magnets in high wind pickups.
It is the bridge pickup @Fullmoon 1971
 
It is the bridge pickup @Fullmoon 1971
I'd probably go Alnico 5 or 6 then, I agree with @Lewguitar about Roughcast A5's as well(actually forgot to type that one out)

For a 10k model you want a fairly strong magnet. They go lowest to highest strength
A3
UNORIENTED A2
ROUGHCAST A2
A2
A4
UNORIENTED A5
ROUGHCAST A5
A5
A6
A8

I originally used addictionfx for my magnets, they were a great supplier (just remember to ask for the magnets to be fully charged). I only stopped using them because they decided on really high shipping fees to the UK. I then found a company here in the UK that would make them to my specs with no minimum order and their only a hour away so no shipping fees either.

Another little trick is get some steel bobbin screws (the one's that hold the bobbins to the base plate) non brass plated steel with raise the inductance thus raising the output slightly.

The very early PAFs as used on Gibson lap steel guitars in late 1956 and the very early 1957 guitars used steel screws, baseplate and covers. Nickel silver wasn't used until about mid way through 57.

A Alnico 3 should tighten up a 10K bridge pickup, it won't increase the perceived volume per say but it will tighten and round out the sound. (A3 magnets were used in the original 56 lap steel pickups and some of the early 57 humbuckers) they were the main magnet use in gibson's P90's until around 1957, the first humbuckers used P90 magnets until mid to late 1957 when the switch to Roughcast unoriented A5 (which to a lot of people sounds like a A2, hence magnet confusion).

As others have said I would suggest getting a few different grades of magnets, their pretty cheap and just try swapping around till you your sound, be aware though that the sound of the pickup will change slightly a few days after the magnet swap as everything settles down.

Darrell Braun has a really good video on magnet swapping and the ways different magnets make the same pickup sound.

 
I enjoyed that shootout. He did it all on the neck pick up tho.

I think tho, that based on the video the OP might like the A5 or A8.

Never tried an A8 myself but thought it sounded good in two out of three tests in the video and if it’s more output he’s after it seemed to have more drive than A5.

For myself, I liked what I usually like: A3 or A2 for clean. A2 or A5 for medium gain or distortion.

But for guys after mainly overdrive or distortion, the A8 sounded really good too.

Think I’ll try an A8 in the bridge pickup of one of my SE Singlecuts. I’ve had one in my magnet stash for a while, just never put it in.
 
What is the bridge pickup you are using?

The make and model?
Hi @Lewguitar .It’s a Zhangbucker Duane Plus true handwound bridge pickup 9800 ohms, Alnico 2. Because the coils are literally wound by hand and scatterwound, they are thicker than your typical humbucker. The coils are also purposely mismatched whereas the slug coil is wound hotter than the screw coil for his bridge humbuckers. On his neck humbuckers the screw coil is hotter…..
 
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Hi @Lewguitar .It’s a Zhangbucker Duane Plus true handwound bridge pickup 9800 ohms, Alnico 2. Because the coils are literally wound by hand and scatterwound, they are thicker than your typical humbucker. The coils are also purposely mismatched whereas the slug coil is wound hotter than the screw coil for his bridge humbuckers. On his neck humbuckers the screw coil is hotter…..
I knew Zhang a long time ago when I was a Duncan dealer and posted often at the Seymour Duncan Forum. I remember when he first started winding pickups.

I never tried his pickups.

So unbalanced coils. That is supposed to result in a clearer, more transparent sound.

I've used the Lindy Fralin Unbucker set. A similar concept. I didn't like them because they just weren't ballsy enough.

But thick and ballsy wasn't the goal with Lindy Fralin's Unbuckers.

The goal was a tone with a sense of space and clarity, sort of like a single coil, and maybe that was Zhang's goal with your pickups?
 
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if you like the sound of the pickup and want more output and turning the gain knob on the amp for some reason violates a spiritual belief then it is way easier to buy a clean boost pedal.. if you wish it to be uncolored tonally then look no further than the Dunlop CAE line driver
 
I just wanted to bring up this thread again because I'm really into magnets lately. I'm not as knowledgeable as Lew (may he rest in peace) or Fullmoon, but I wanted to share some interesting facts about Alnico 3. It's weaker than Alnico 2 because it doesn't contain cobalt. Apparently, during the Cold War arms race, there was a shortage of cobalt, which is a crucial element in nuclear weaponry. In the 50s, Gibson was using whatever materials were available, so some Alnico 3 magnets ended up in PAFs. I found this information interesting and thought I'd share it.

Right now, I'm gathering some magnet supplies, and I might try swapping them out in some of my guitars.
 
I knew Zhang a long time ago when I was a Duncan dealer and posted often at the Seymour Duncan Forum. I remember when he first started winding pickups.

I never tried his pickups.

So unbalanced coils. That is supposed to result in a clearer, more transparent sound.

I've used the Lindy Fralin Unbucker set. A similar concept. I didn't like them because they just weren't ballsy enough.

But thick and ballsy wasn't the goal with Lindy Fralin's Unbuckers.

The goal was a tone with a sense of space and clarity, sort of like a single coil, and maybe that was Zhang's goal with your pickups?
The Duane + is an extremely ballsy hot PAF. Love those as well as the newer 57/08’s which were allegedly a copy of Duane Allman’s 57 PAF’s that came out of his Goldtop and he put them in his ‘59 Darkburst
 
Alnico 5 is the strongest of the most commonly used magnets and .... These work great in a low-wind neck pickup for very crisp tone. When in a hotter neck pickup, the Alnico 5 may lean towards the boomy side which can overpower the highs.
.... In a lower wind bridge humbucker, the Alnico 5 may sound thin and brittle compared to an Alnico 2 or 4.

Great write up. This is why I like alnico V in a low wind neck PU and a II in a low wind bridge PU.
 
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