Controlling Gig Volume

[Boogie]

I've probably talked about this before. It's one of my toughest challenges as a weekend string slinger. Most venues are reasonably sized bars that hold maybe a couple hundred people, max, and need a little grunt in the amp to make it travel to the back of the room. And since we kick it old school in the sound support department (mic only the kick drum and vox), sometimes the challenge of the mix is daunting.

The tricks and tools of the trade are pretty obvious for a single channel amp scenario...1x12 cab for the smaller places, gain balanced dirt pedals keeping the volume control at the guitar and in the hands. But lately we've played a couple volume-sensitive events and I had to sacrifice tone quality for keeping the venue happy...especially since we got shutdown 3 weeks ago at an outdoor festival for being too loud. I fact, our private party gig this last weekend learned of our previous gig and voiced concerns of a repeat performance (which didn't happen). We are taking the professional approach and doing everything we can to appease our clientele, but sometimes it's stinkin' hard!

Personally, since I'm self amplifying and monitoring, I spend time getting the cab angle right for stage volume, mostly. There's also a plexiglass baffle that I made a couple years ago that is great for preventing a volume blast but tends to cause unpredictable impacts on stage volume...especially on low ceilings. All my cabs are closed back, too.

Most recently, I've kept my amp settings the same...volume at about 9:00 and master at 3:00...and adjusted the maximum volume at my dirt pedals. Since the amp is so clean at that setting, I've lost one of my rhythm tones. That's ok if I achieve the right balance but it's still a sacrifice. DG once told me to play the right gear for the venue but don't compromise your tone. "Lay the cab flat on its face if you have to." If I were the only guitar, then I could get away with it, but I have to play nice with the other kids on the playground.

Do I need to suck it up and accept that I will probably sound like **** for the really low volume gigs? (And no, I'm not changing amps, so nice try. After years of trying, a 50w amp has the right headroom for cleans in our world.) Or is there some angle I've missed?

 

[László]

There are a few things you can do, but for low volume gigs with a 50 watt amp my solution would be a Rivera Silent Sister with the mic output run through the PA. The cab can be placed as far offstage as necessary, you get your happy place tone thing going, and the volume is controlled at the mix.

My son tells me that on 30 Seconds to Mars' world tour last summer, their guitar player Tomo used one for the entire tour, there was no guitar cab on stage, and this includes the outdoor venue at Nurburgring in Germany with 100,000 people in the audience (!). The band uses in-ear monitors.

David Grissom's advice is cool, but he's a guy people go to see because of his guitar playing. The guitar is the center of what his band does, it's all about him.

If your band isn't all about you and your playing, then your tone becomes more or less an academic question. What I'd do if I insisted on putting an amp and cab on stage in a small venue is use a small amp. And to reduce "boom" and mud even further, I'd put it on a stand or Auralex Gramma, and bring along a real gobo capable of absorbing sound, not a plexiglas thing that will only reflect sound in weird ways all over the room!

Whoever came up with the idea that a piece of highly reflective plexiglas would be the solution for a guitar amp in a room really needed a shrink. It's a crazy idea that came from drum risers used onstage on big tours, so the audience could see the drummer, and it was effective to block sound going directly into the ears of the other musicians on the stage, but it's not acoustically a very sound idea (pun intended), and it certainly can't control sound in a smaller room. The idea wasn't created for reducing volume in a small venue, and this is why you don't see them in intelligently-designed studios.

I used to gig with a Mesa Blue Angel that was barely loud enough to be heard over the drums in a large venue, but was perfect in a small one. I didn't get "my tone" without pedals, of course ("my tone" at the time was a Two-Rock 50 watt Onyx that was a pretty loud 50 watts). That was ok, actually. One of my friends and best session guys uses a 15 watt Matchless in small venues. You should hear this guy play and his clean tone and dirty tones are to die for! 15 Watts! Because he's a fabulous player with great dynamics. He'd sound great playing through a table radio.

How many times have you sat in the audience and heard a band in a small venue that was too loud? For me, too many times. To hear the mud, and the boominess, and the harshness, it's just crazy. Sure, the band has fun, but the audience grits its collective teeth.

The best solution I've ever heard in a small room was a Bose sound reinforcement system comprised of an omnidirectional stage speaker for each person in the entire band, some very small amps, and a drummer who knew how to play quietly yet well. You could hear everything! It sounded great, and the audience loved it.

I'm sure the guitar players weren't all that stoked by their sound, but honestly the whole sounded better than the sum of the parts. But there's a reason you see really great small venue bands, like the best wedding bands, with a guitar player who cares more about the sound of the ensemble than his/her personal grail tone, being more successful than other bands.

 

[BlueSky]

What worked best for me is a Clearsonic Plexi shield. Make sure it's in a V shape in front of the cab, not a l_l shape.
That way you're still pretty loud on stage but you won't deafen the audience.

 

[aristotle]

I've struggled with the same thing. Here's how I've come down on it...

1. A nice tube amp, set cleanish, with an Xotic BB, a clean boost, an OCD, a delay and a compressor in front (deployed when and where needed) is the most gig-friendly way to go if you cover a wide range of material. That can be set, without baffles, attenuators, chicken blood, or other inconveniences, to mix in fine with another guitarist in small-ish venues at almost any volume.

2. That type of setup will never be as fun as setting a higher power amp to be in a good breakup mode at full guitar volume.

3. Low power amps (pick your lunchbox amp of choice) is no better than a higher power amp attenuated. No worse, but no better.

4. (and you both already hit on this) The audience doesn't know or care. A tight band, with good vocals is all that matters to first order.

5. Multi-channel amps are fine, but also not better. For low volume gigs, my JVM410 dialed back is no better than a DRRI with the BB and OCD. Of the multi-channel amps I have, the best of the bunch for low volume gigs is the Archon because so much of the tone is set via the pre-amp, and something about the bass response on the lead channel helps it out at low volume. Second best is the Marshall 6100, again probably because of the bass boost that kicks in at low volume.

So, my jonesing for tone has to be satisfied with other like minded musicians jamming in private with the range of equipment that I have access to. Of course none of this is of any actual help regarding your question. I listened to a friend's band this weekend. A decent crowd packed into a small space...and these guys were super quiet. Two guitars, keys, bass and drums. I'd have preferred to hear the leads louder....and to be sure, the lead tones coming from the guitars was both inorganic and too soft in the mix for my tastes....but they played great, the set list was perfect for the crowd, and you could actually hold a conversation. Everybody loved it and went home happy. Just have to live with it I suppose....and continue chasing options in case there really is some sort of magic bullet out there... I tend to play out at clubs where higher volume is both tolerated and sometimes even appreciated....so with our band, it's a bit easier to get a bit closer to the fun zone tone-wise...but even still, for the purpose of a happy audience, the DRRI with pedals is easily as-good.

I think that the exception is if you are a guitar, bass, drums and a vocalist, doing blues, you can go with something like an MDT (or a bassman, or whatever) set to breakup reasonably early and get away with it. That's my experience anyway. I've heard lots of blues bands in small venues where the guitarist gets tone to die for at reasonable volumes.

 

[Rider1260]

Boogie
I have always played at pretty ( OK Very ) low levels I like it better as I can dig into the strings more and my sound is more controlled or controllable.
I can get my Mesa to sound killer a low levels with the use of pedals, I am a big fan of angling my amp up and letting it bounce into the room.
I have also had really good luck setting my combo up as a wedge monitor in front of me and using a 1x12 extension on the other side of the stage so I can be heard on the other side of the stage.

 

[jimfisher]

Great discussion, and one that I'm struggling with now too. You'd think that after doing this stuff off & on for 50 years I'd have figured it out, but it still gets me PO'd when I get told we're too loud! To me it all starts with the drummer and how hard he hits it. I play in a 5 piece band full of old guys that plays old music for old people :laugh:

We mic my amp, keys and vocals thru a Bose PA system and out front I'm told it sounds great. Everyone has a monitor but if I can't hear myself well enough on stage over the drums I'm pretty miserable and find that I play with too much fretting pressure and then can't play the way I want. If the drummer tries to play too softly the whole mix just doesn't feel right either.

I'm using my PRS hollowbody thru a new Peavey Classic 30 on a stand pointed at my head mainly clean, use the 2nd channel as crunch and an OD pedal for a little more in solos. I think I just played too many years with no monitors and just played flat out, trying to control the volume individually. Micing everything and using monitors is still new to me and I haven't figured it all out yet, but working on trying to find the sweet spot where I still can feel the music but not be too loud at the same time.

Jim

 

[Rider1260]

If you can afford it in ear monitors are the way to go lowers the stage vol help to isolate you from the drummer

 

[Egads]

Like everyone one else here, we struggle with levels, too. We play small to medium clubs for the most part. We did have a big outdoor gig this summer. I'm a bit of an amp whore, and have gone through more than I can remember. About five years ago, I started going through all the lunch boxes and different cabs. My conclusion is that most of the lunch boxes leave me wanting a little more. I've found some good clean and crunchy tones at lower volumes, but nothing really driving that blows up my skirt. I've also moved down to 1x12 cabs. It's easier to crank the amp a bit more wihout getting too loud. It's also so much easier to haul! There are some awesome small cabs out there, but I've been happiest with slightly oversized cabs.

I know you said you don't want to change amps, but how about cabs? The Silent Sister or an open-backed 1x12 pointing mostly up? I'm running 13-22 watts amps through a1x12. If the venue is bigger or deep, I'll mic it.

 

[cyclops]

Something I was told a while back was 'let the PA do the work'. That has resonated with me. No matter what the size of the venue, I mic my cab, and run the guitar though the PA and monitors. I then keep the volume down on the amp, but use a compressor to drive the signal into the amp. I get a great tone at fairly low volumes.

As for being too loud, you might want to take a step back and look at what is being said. Usually 'too loud' means a poor mix. Try hiring a sound guy for a night, and see if the complaints don't stop. A good one will tell the players to turn down, then give them good monitor mixes. Also, if everything is mic'ed, a sound guy can stop the overbearing instruments.

Good luck!

 

[andy474x]

+1 Les.

At my wedding reception, the guitarist in the band was playing a 335 through a 12" solid state amp. Granted, I think it was actually a pretty nice amp for a solid state (ie not a line 6, etc), but him playing that little thing at a reasonable volume, along with the rest of the band keeping it in check, REALLY made the music a lot more enjoyable. Even being a tone junkie, I really could've cared less if he was getting optimal tone because the mix was so good that I could clearly hear everything that was going on.

On a more personal note, when I'm playing, I hate trying to fill a mix just with my amp (no PA). With no PA, I know my closed back 2x12 beams like crazy, so my crowd coverage is spotty at best. My only saving grace right now is that in my band we have another guitar player on the other side of the stage to fill things out. But even then, our stage volume is a total pissing match. Our drummer is VERY heavy handed, and I'm running my 30 watt at noon on the volume and 9/10 on the MV - basically maxing the clean headroom and then hitting it with pedals. I have to keep up with our rhythm player's 120 watt 6505, which is also running pretty hot. The stage volume gets so unruly and competitive between instruments that I'm glad just to hear what notes I'm playing. Mix and dynamics are sadly very secondary, I don't like it but that's just the way the rest of my band likes to play. It's amazing how many musicians out there will spend time crafting songs, practicing and perfecting their music, just to throw it all away at max volume in a mix that no one can appreciate the nuances in.

So, Boogie, I guess the grass is always greener... for me, a cranked up 50 watt, even through a 1x12, is going to be so loud that by the time the rest of the band catches up, a lot of people in the audience won't be able to appreciate the tone anyways. I think we guitar players lose sight of what people enjoy most, which is listening to the music, not having it forced upon their eardrums. Plus, you don't strike me as the kind of guy whose rig is gonna sound like crap just because of a couple clicks on the MV!

Just my 2 cents.

Of course, this is all assuming a civil audience - if they're plastered and they just want to party, turn that b*tch up til you rattle the teeth out of their heads! PARTYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Haha!

 

[Boogie]

Hahahaha! Your last sentence, Andy, made me giggle. All too true!

One of our biggest handicaps - and part of our charm - is the limited PA coverage. The old school approach is very Buddy Holly-esque and brings something to the game. But it also brings unpredictability and stress. If I don't get dialed in really fast, I fixate on it and that distracts from my performance. That, in turn, impacts the overall performance. Not good

This past weekend, case in point, was my least favorite venue (nice enough owners/management but the room is a nightmare for dead spots, projection and EQ anomalies). The crowd was sparse since it was an abnormally warm evening and everyone was out doing something else. There went our human-body-sound-absorption factor. So all of our prior sound support experience here was no good. Plus, last week we played in an auditorium filled with people, so that really threw our settings off. Our manager plays sound man but only for levels (volume police). She eventually gave up. We fought volumes for 3 sets causing all sorts of stress, which, in turn, reduced the show quality, IMO. My friends in attendance didn't notice or care about any of my complaints. That's an important point.

My my youngest son showed up around 11pm and proceeded to tweak our sound...tightening up the kick, de-mudding the vox (almost impossible with our rig) and general cleanup. By the time the night concluded, we felt much better. Did we sound better? Who knows. The disposition of the 40 or so people there didn't change (except Tay, who was our one-man fan club). Tough night.

The main reason we don't mic everything is due to not having anyone to consistently run sound. Every venue is different and the acoustics change throughout the night, needing attention. If we changed our sound support philosophy, IMO, we would need to sell everything and rebuild from scratch. (That would be awesome, btw) Not only would that be expensive, it would be painful. And since I don't own/operate the sound system, my opinion is probably moot. My job is to do my part as well as possible with the assets/deficits at my disposal. So, I come here and biatch/commiserate. :biggrin:

I will comment about volume wars. We don't have that problem much. The drummer is an older, "finesse" player which makes life easier. He still packs a punch where it matters but it doesn't cause the stage volume issues. As long as us two guitarists have our rhythm and lead volumes at relative parity, things are smooth. It's when we're at parity but the vox are too low that we have to scramble. Rarely will we turn up...guitars turn down. My instant reaction is to compensate with picking dynamics, which works fine for a while until we start playing some of the driving tunes and I get lost in the fun, beating the crap out of my strings again...and the mix. Setting my volume for the max and backing down on guitar volume usually works, but due to our set list, that doesn't work for long. So, it's a constant battle.

 

[László]

Hahahaha! Your last sentence, Andy, made me giggle. All too true!

One of our biggest handicaps - and part of our charm - is the limited PA coverage. The old school approach is very Buddy Holly-esque and brings something to the game. But it also brings unpredictability and stress. If I don't get dialed in really fast, I fixate on it and that distracts from my performance. That, in turn, impacts the overall performance. Not good

This past weekend, case in point, was my least favorite venue (nice enough owners/management but the room is a nightmare for dead spots, projection and EQ anomalies). The crowd was sparse since it was an abnormally warm evening and everyone was out doing something else. There went our human-body-sound-absorption factor. So all of our prior sound support experience here was no good. Plus, last week we played in an auditorium filled with people, so that really threw our settings off. Our manager plays sound man but only for levels (volume police). She eventually gave up. We fought volumes for 3 sets causing all sorts of stress, which, in turn, reduced the show quality, IMO. My friends in attendance didn't notice or care about any of my complaints. That's an important point.

My my youngest son showed up around 11pm and proceeded to tweak our sound...tightening up the kick, de-mudding the vox (almost impossible with our rig) and general cleanup. By the time the night concluded, we felt much better. Did we sound better? Who knows. The disposition of the 40 or so people there didn't change (except Tay, who was our one-man fan club). Tough night.

The main reason we don't mic everything is due to not having anyone to consistently run sound. Every venue is different and the acoustics change throughout the night, needing attention. If we changed our sound support philosophy, IMO, we would need to sell everything and rebuild from scratch. (That would be awesome, btw) Not only would that be expensive, it would be painful. And since I don't own/operate the sound system, my opinion is probably moot. My job is to do my part as well as possible with the assets/deficits at my disposal. So, I come here and biatch/commiserate. :biggrin:

I will comment about volume wars. We don't have that problem much. The drummer is an older, "finesse" player which makes life easier. He still packs a punch where it matters but it doesn't cause the stage volume issues. As long as us two guitarists have our rhythm and lead volumes at relative parity, things are smooth. It's when we're at parity but the vox are too low that we have to scramble. Rarely will we turn up...guitars turn down. My instant reaction is to compensate with picking dynamics, which works fine for a while until we start playing some of the driving tunes and I get lost in the fun, beating the crap out of my strings again...and the mix. Setting my volume for the max and backing down on guitar volume usually works, but due to our set list, that doesn't work for long. So, it's a constant battle.

Welp. You're screwed.

 

[Boogie]

I wanted to thank everyone again for the excellent feedback. We went back to that same difficult venue last weekend and had a totally different result. First, I decided that I was not going to stress over this: let go and have fun. And ya know what? It worked! The crowd was total poo (except the only pretty girls in the place flirted and danced with us all night). How in the world can 50 people around the bar - NOT whoopin' it up - not at least look at us during an AC/DC tune? In New Whiteland, Indiana, no less!!!! Come on folks, have a little fun. *sheesh*

Your suggestions kept going thru my mind all week so I tore down the pedalboard and started over (well, a little). The idea was to give me ultimate EQ and volume control from the OD boxes, leaving my amp settings intact. Was I in the amp's sweet spot? No, but I got some really good growl while wide open on the guitar. Even the split tones totally delivered. From where I was standing (and let's face it, at this point it's all about me now) it sounded pretty darned good. The mix got the thumbs up from our manager and bar management. As a result, I played with more confidence and pushed the envelope a bit. Lots of fun! We play here again in a couple of weeks so we'll see if I can get a repeat performance.

One observation. Like someone mentioned, sometimes you aren't too loud, just have a crappy mix. By using the tone control on the BB Preamp, I tweaked that instead of volume most of the night with great results. It was about "cut" not "blast". Here's what the pedalboard looked like...

 

[Boogie]

...and here's how crazy-crammed I was into the corner with the PA...

 

[Egads]

Glad to hear it came together better. What is the make-up of the band? You manage the board yourself, right?

 

[László]

How in the world can 50 people around the bar - NOT whoopin' it up - not at least look at us during an AC/DC tune?

Not everyone loves an AC/DC tune.

Not my thing, either.

Now, if you played some old Motown...

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Now, if you played some old Motown...

YES!!!!!

 

[Boogie]

Not everyone loves an AC/DC tune.

Not my thing, either.

Now, if you played some old Motown...

I guess I needed to be more specific...in a town named Whiteland, I can confirm there aren't many Motown fans. Cultural diversity isn't their strong suit. Know your audience, right? For here, that's ZZ Top, Bob Seger, Tom Petty, and AC/DC. It's not pretty, but it is what it is. At least I get to channel my inner Billy G!

To be clear, I like playing AC/DC more than listening to them...unless I'm really trashed.

I'm not the sound guy, the vocalist handles that task. My sound support philosophies differ drastically from his so I stay clear of the PA gear. My youngest son, Taylor, is an audio engineer and is the only person Jeremy (vocalist) will let near the board. When we're fortunate, Tay comes to the show and sweetens things up. This is also why we only mic drums and vox...no regular sound man.

 

[László]

I guess I needed to be more specific...in a town named Whiteland, I can confirm there aren't many Motown fans. Cultural diversity isn't their strong suit.

Or so you assume. If your audience ignored the AC/DC you played, maybe you're misreading your audience and selling them short.

 

[Boogie]

I'm not comfortable dressing down this place, but the truth is, the clientele are too busy getting sh*tfaced because they hate their lives. They aren't there to have fun...well, the people at the bar and the far side of the room. People on the "band side" were engaged and responsive. But that was, maybe 30% of the total crowd. To the far side crowd, we could have played the sound track to Westside Story and they wouldn't have looked twice. It wasn't a misread because those that did respond did so positively.

And I'm absolutely positive we didn't misread the crowd because we brought down the entire house with Freebird. There you made me say it. I'll go stand over here awaiting my ribbing...

Bob, the only thig you'd pickup in this place is depression and secondhand lung cancer.