The V30's: Trying to stay strong...

Hey fellas - well, I think I got some decent settings on my amp and captured some encouraging tones this morning. Not perfected yet. To my surprise, I'm having more of a problem with the bass than the treble and mids. Brought the bass down on the amp, but there's still a lot of it in there. Despite that, it's still a good starting place, for my first attempt at recording the new speakers. A bonus, these settings are more friendly to my boost pedals too, so the first go-round in the clip is straight into the lead channel, the second rep is with a Wampler Clarksdale, third is with the Bogner Wessex (my favorite, although I think the Clarksdale recorded better).

I'm interested to hear what others think, since we all have different ears, different speakers and monitors, etc. Don't be afraid to criticize! Also, tips for getting some of that bass out!

PS - If you're into generic, poorly thought out blues/rock riffs, you're about to have a GREAT night!


https://soundcloud.com/6stringthunder/vintage-30s-lead-channel
 
Hey fellas - well, I think I got some decent settings on my amp and captured some encouraging tones this morning. Not perfected yet. To my surprise, I'm having more of a problem with the bass than the treble and mids. Brought the bass down on the amp, but there's still a lot of it in there. l

Well, I think all three of the segments are very good sounding recordings, actually. And nothing wrong with the playing either!

In terms of preference, for this particular riff, I liked the Wessex segment a tiny bit more, because it sounded rich and smooth, where the other pedal sounded tighter and maybe a tiny bit thinner, but of course in the right context tighter can be the right choice, too. I'm splitting hairs a little bit, both were great. The tune also sounded really good just going straight into the amp, but the pedals did give me something my ear liked - maybe just that touch of compression to the signal?

In terms of bass...help me out by describing how you've set up the cab. If you've got it 10"-12" off the floor that's a good start. Sometimes it's a good idea to use one of those foam Auralex Gramma risers to isolate the cab from vibrating the floor. Also, room placement matters.

If the cab is on the floor, you get half space reinforcement, which doubles the bass. If it's on the floor next to a wall, you have quarter space reinforcement that doubles it again. And in a corner, you've added even more bass. So it's important to get the cab further out into the room.

Also, remember that the closer the mic, the more proximity effect you have, which increases the bass on the recording. Lots of engineers will use a highpass filter and just filter out all the low end mud starting 60-100Hz depending on the mic, the room, etc.

Still, I think you captured a very nice signal in all three passes, and I dug it. You may or may not agree, but to me, it's a very juicy recording and the tones are pretty classic.
 
Well, I think all three of the segments are very good sounding recordings, actually. And nothing wrong with the playing either!

In terms of preference, for this particular riff, I liked the Wessex segment a tiny bit more, because it sounded rich and smooth, where the other pedal sounded tighter and maybe a tiny bit thinner, but of course in the right context tighter can be the right choice, too. I'm splitting hairs a little bit, both were great. The tune also sounded really good just going straight into the amp, but the pedals did give me something my ear liked - maybe just that touch of compression to the signal?

In terms of bass...help me out by describing how you've set up the cab. If you've got it 10"-12" off the floor that's a good start. Sometimes it's a good idea to use one of those foam Auralex Gramma risers to isolate the cab from vibrating the floor. Also, room placement matters.

If the cab is on the floor, you get half space reinforcement, which doubles the bass. If it's on the floor next to a wall, you have quarter space reinforcement that doubles it again. And in a corner, you've added even more bass. So it's important to get the cab further out into the room.

Also, remember that the closer the mic, the more proximity effect you have, which increases the bass on the recording. Lots of engineers will use a highpass filter and just filter out all the low end mud starting 60-100Hz depending on the mic, the room, etc.

Still, I think you captured a very nice signal in all three passes, and I dug it. You may or may not agree, but to me, it's a very juicy recording and the tones are pretty classic.

Thanks Les! That means a lot, especially coming from a resident expert!

So, if I have the cab on the floor, in a corner, 6" away from the wall in back, 12" away from the wall on the side, and at a 30 degree angle... uh oh... Does that mean I'm getting dotted eighth space reinforcement? The horror!

Kidding of course. I have the cab on a riser (basically a storage shelf system) about 2 feet up, enough to get it near ear level without absolutely blasting me in the face. It is in a corner, so I should move it out into the room. I'm also just dangling the mic (e906), so I'll get a stand and experiment with pulling it back.

You're 100% correct about the lead channel of this amp, it does like to be boosted. The signal is running through two 5751's rather than the stock 12ax7's, because the stock preamp was too harsh and gritty and just had way too much gain. Much warmer breakup character with the tube swap. I don't know if those 5751's changed the saturation and compression, but things definitely fill out with a boost. Listening again, I could have turned the gain down on the boosted sections too. The Wessex does a great job keeping the tone pure and just adding a push. The Clarksdale puts forth a more punchy, articulate EQ that would be good for tight rhythm tones, as one would expect from a TS type pedal.
 
I have the cab on a riser (basically a storage shelf system) about 2 feet up, enough to get it near ear level without absolutely blasting me in the face. It is in a corner, so I should move it out into the room. I'm also just dangling the mic (e906), so I'll get a stand and experiment with pulling it back.

The riser's a good idea; one thing to look out for is whether the riser is resonating LF content from the cabinet vibrations, so you could always try isolating it with some foam stuff and see how that works.

If it's in a corner, that could be a source of your low end problem in the room, though I thought the recordings sounded very good. I have a small 1x12 in a corner in my studio, and it sounds OK there, but put a 2x12 in the same spot and it's boomy as hell.

I'm not a mic dangler. It's fine for live use, but a stand is a good idea, and as I said, that way you can control the mic's proximity effect, as well as prevent the mic from moving and smearing the signal as the cab vibrates (they do vibrate!). All mics suffer from proximity effect to some degree, and it's nice to be able to control that with placement.
 
I just looked up the Auralex Gramma, that looks like a nice solution. The riser is just a thin, broad plastic platform, so it probably resonates low frequencies like a bass drum!
 
I just looked up the Auralex Gramma, that looks like a nice solution. The riser is just a thin, broad plastic platform, so it probably resonates low frequencies like a bass drum!

I have a couple of them, in fact, one's an extra. I'd ship it to you, but it wouldn't be worth the shipping cost, as they're quite inexpensive. However, if you're ever around my part of the state of MI, you're welcome to have it.
 
They are! Ask Boogie.
:D
It's not "an insinuation", it's the truth...and they are "better" for M/B's applications and cabinets. My opinion, of course.

For me, the magic is in the combination of parts...cab, speaker, amp, guitar. If it doesn't work, it's not because one piece is inferior, just not compatible. Don't discount one factor or another. That's why chasing tone is a marathon, not a sprint. Take it slow and carefully plot out your next move.
 
:D
It's not "an insinuation", it's the truth...and they are "better" for M/B's applications and cabinets. My opinion, of course.

For me, the magic is in the combination of parts...cab, speaker, amp, guitar. If it doesn't work, it's not because one piece is inferior, just not compatible. Don't discount one factor or another. That's why chasing tone is a marathon, not a sprint. Take it slow and carefully plot out your next move.

FYI, you can isolate any speaker cab with a cheap amp stand. Just getting it a few inches off the ground disconnects that bass like a champ.
 
FYI, you can isolate any speaker cab with a cheap amp stand. Just getting it a few inches off the ground disconnects that bass like a champ.

You haven't isolated the cab, of course. All you've done is reduce (not eliminate) half space bass reinforcement. And while that's a good thing, it doesn't solve the whole problem.

This is because you still haven't truly decoupled the cab from the floor, since the stand's legs will vibrate and transmit the vibration to the floor to some degree (of course, this depends on the design of the stand, but most stands do not have decoupling material that actually works).

And so you'll still have structure-borne vibration that can show up as low frequency mud, or cause structural buzzes and rattles. Concrete floors will vibrate just as readily as a plywood or solid wood floor, and in fact, because the concrete is poured in one piece, the structural vibrations can be even worse, where a wood floor vibrates in pieces-parts, and there is some dissipation of the vibration as it moves around the floor.

This is just the same as when a mic stand will vibrate from the floor, via cab vibrations and footfalls - which is why, for example, serious studios always use shock mounts on good microphones. Heck, I even use shock mounts with an SM57! The reason isn't to protect the mic - it's to get rid of the smear and mud.

To decouple the cab from the floor, the Gramma foam stuff works pretty well. So if you want true decoupling, and the elimination of structure-borne low frequency vibration, which does cause noise, the Auralex Gramma is a good product. It's not perfect, but it's not bad, either. I haven't yet found a perfect decoupling product. At one time I had ASC make me a subwoofer stand with bass trapping material inside, for the cabs. And it worked well, but not significantly better than the far less clumsy Auralex stuff.

Often when I record guitar, I use both a Gramma to isolate the structure from the cabinet's vibrations, AND I use a riser to lift the cab off the floor.

AND I surround the cab with gobo bass traps that both isolate the cab and absorb excess bass.

And still, it ain't perfect. For perfect, you need an anechoic chamber with the cab suspended about 3-4 feet above the floor, from hooks that are decoupled from the ceiling beams and...you get how difficult this whole thing can be... ;)

One studio I consult with has its recording booth floor completely floated on a special acoustic rubber isolation platform - and this is a big room about 20x25 feet. Over the rubber there's a marble floor. Only rubber touches the edges of the control room.

The control room's monitor supports are concrete blocks sunk ten feet into the ground and they, in turn, are completely isolated from the rest of the studio's floor by acoustical rubber surrounds. This studio was designed by the famous Russ Berger, and the construction costs alone were over a million bucks for these control/recording booth rooms back in the 1990s. The place has three sets of these studio rooms! I can't even imagine what this would cost today.

Best sounding rooms I've ever recorded in.
 
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I have a couple of them, in fact, one's an extra. I'd ship it to you, but it wouldn't be worth the shipping cost, as they're quite inexpensive. However, if you're ever around my part of the state of MI, you're welcome to have it.

Thanks for the offer Les! I don't go that way very often, so I'll probably grab one before the opportunity arises, but if that changes I'll let you know.
 
Hey fellas - well, I think I got some decent settings on my amp and captured some encouraging tones this morning. Not perfected yet. To my surprise, I'm having more of a problem with the bass than the treble and mids. Brought the bass down on the amp, but there's still a lot of it in there. Despite that, it's still a good starting place, for my first attempt at recording the new speakers. A bonus, these settings are more friendly to my boost pedals too, so the first go-round in the clip is straight into the lead channel, the second rep is with a Wampler Clarksdale, third is with the Bogner Wessex (my favorite, although I think the Clarksdale recorded better).

I'm interested to hear what others think, since we all have different ears, different speakers and monitors, etc. Don't be afraid to criticize! Also, tips for getting some of that bass out!

PS - If you're into generic, poorly thought out blues/rock riffs, you're about to have a GREAT night!


https://soundcloud.com/6stringthunder/vintage-30s-lead-channel

The riser's a good idea; one thing to look out for is whether the riser is resonating LF content from the cabinet vibrations, so you could always try isolating it with some foam stuff and see how that works.

If it's in a corner, that could be a source of your low end problem in the room, though I thought the recordings sounded very good. I have a small 1x12 in a corner in my studio, and it sounds OK there, but put a 2x12 in the same spot and it's boomy as hell.

I'm not a mic dangler. It's fine for live use, but a stand is a good idea, and as I said, that way you can control the mic's proximity effect, as well as prevent the mic from moving and smearing the signal as the cab vibrates (they do vibrate!). All mics suffer from proximity effect to some degree, and it's nice to be able to control that with placement.

I thought those clips sounded good. Like Les said, having the cab in a corner can cause some weird resonance issues. Not always necessarily, but it can. Mic dangling isn't my cup of tea either. I want to put the mic exactly where I want it...exact distance, angle, spot on the speaker, etc. Didn't see what mics you use. I know the Sennheiser e609/906 are kinda designed for that. Which is better if at a gig and the sound guy doesn't have stands. Better than dangling a 57 anyway. That said, if you dangled on those clips you made, they still sound very good.

The V30 seems to be a love/hate speaker. I went through a speaker swapping phase several years back. I came out of it that nothing sounded/felt right except the V30. I like the H30 and greenback for certain situations and different sounds. I had a THD cab with CL80's that sounded very good. But for overall use all the time the V30 is where it's at for me. I use Bogner Uberkabs with V30/75 mix now. I hate the sound of 75's, but they work great in these specific cabs when mixed for what I do. I also have a 2x12 with V30's at home that sounds awesome. No one was home last night for awhile and I plugged my Hot Cat 30 into that cab. I changed up my normal settings to something way less gainy and got some ridiculous classic crunch tones. Naturally, once I was done knob fiddling and really getting into it, people started coming home:( It was a bummer. But I was playing pretty obnoxiously loud. At least I realized I need to "silence" some items hanging on the wall by really cranking it.
 
I thought those clips sounded good. Like Les said, having the cab in a corner can cause some weird resonance issues. Not always necessarily, but it can. Mic dangling isn't my cup of tea either. I want to put the mic exactly where I want it...exact distance, angle, spot on the speaker, etc. Didn't see what mics you use. I know the Sennheiser e609/906 are kinda designed for that. Which is better if at a gig and the sound guy doesn't have stands. Better than dangling a 57 anyway. That said, if you dangled on those clips you made, they still sound very good.

The V30 seems to be a love/hate speaker. I went through a speaker swapping phase several years back. I came out of it that nothing sounded/felt right except the V30. I like the H30 and greenback for certain situations and different sounds. I had a THD cab with CL80's that sounded very good. But for overall use all the time the V30 is where it's at for me. I use Bogner Uberkabs with V30/75 mix now. I hate the sound of 75's, but they work great in these specific cabs when mixed for what I do. I also have a 2x12 with V30's at home that sounds awesome. No one was home last night for awhile and I plugged my Hot Cat 30 into that cab. I changed up my normal settings to something way less gainy and got some ridiculous classic crunch tones. Naturally, once I was done knob fiddling and really getting into it, people started coming home:( It was a bummer. But I was playing pretty obnoxiously loud. At least I realized I need to "silence" some items hanging on the wall by really cranking it.

Ah, the "Nobody Home Boogie" - a classic best played loud! My wife is out of town this weekend, so I've got some room to breathe too.

I used a 906 for that clip, but I did grab a mic stand lastnight, so I'll be experimenting with that today.
 
:D
It's not "an insinuation", it's the truth...and they are "better" for M/B's applications and cabinets. My opinion, of course.

For me, the magic is in the combination of parts...cab, speaker, amp, guitar. If it doesn't work, it's not because one piece is inferior, just not compatible. Don't discount one factor or another. That's why chasing tone is a marathon, not a sprint. Take it slow and carefully plot out your next move.

While I agree with the usual "everyone hears things differently," "every persons gear is different," "every persons ear is different," "there no BEST for everyone" politically correct disclaimers, I'm tempted to disagree with part of what you said. In fact, I know you've been at this for quite a while, and I know you've been into Mesa for quite a while, so I'm honestly surprised that you don't completely agree that Mesa's V30 is better than any of Celestions versions, without any qualifications. I'm almost sure you know the real difference between the Mesa version, and given that difference, it's hard to make a case for any other version really being as good. I find other manufacturers (like Eminence and Warehouse) come come closer to the original/Mesa V30s, and thus prefer both of those over any new Celestion V30, except of course the Mesa verson. But then, anyone could easily say that this is because both Warehouse and Eminence have openly admitted that they went for more the original V30, instead of the newer ones.

I guess if you have a dark amp and really need the extra few dB in the 3k range, you might prefer a newer one. But, the older style cone sounds better across the board to my ears, even if they did tame the spike a bit in the newer ones. And this translates to different cabs, and different amps. But, of course, YMMV, and all that stuff. This, as always is just my opinion, and I am the typical guy on the internet who talks a lot but doesn't know crap. :) I was just surprised to see this. I thought you'd be a big fan of the Mesa V30. Personally, with every amp I've tried or heard, I'd take a Eminence Governor or a Warehouse Veteran 30 over any new Celestion that I have tried, except the Mesa version. IMHO, YMMV.
 
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Personally, with every amp I've tried or heard, I'd take a Eminence Governor or a Warehouse Veteran 30 over any new Celestion that I have tried, except the Mesa version. IMHO, YMMV.

I don't really have a big "thing" about this, since I tend to like the Mesa V-30s quite a lot. I have two PRS cabs, one is a 1x12 closed-back with a PRS-modified V-30 (what these mods are, I have zero clue), and one is a Grissom cab with two V-30s (the catalog doesn't say whether these are modified or not, and I haven't been well enough to spend an afternoon opening up the cab and screwing around (literally, there are just so many damn screws) with it, and yes I have an electric drill-driver and I'm still not doing it.

Anyway, of the two cabs, the DG30 cab is one of the best sounding cabinets I've ever laid down tracks with, and it sounds phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal, in the room. I wouldn't change a thing, whatever's in there, I am good with!

The 1x12 is a bit more problematic for me, as I'm just not into 1x12s and I got it just to have a lightweight grab and go thing. I plan to sell it and get another DG cab for my HXDA 30.

However, I'd like to make one comment: I really don't care for the Eminence Governor. I know, made in the USA, and all that, but...I don't think it truly sounds like an old V30 or as good as the Mesa V30, or even as good as a new standard V30. Something about Eminence speakers kind of bugs me, there's an overtone in there, or something. I dunno.

I have no experience at all with the Warehouse Veteran 30. Never heard one. Got any clips?
 
I don't really have a big "thing" about this, since I tend to like the Mesa V-30s quite a lot. I have two PRS cabs, one is a 1x12 closed-back with a PRS-modified V-30 (what these mods are, I have zero clue), and one is a Grissom cab with two V-30s (the catalog doesn't say whether these are modified or not, and I haven't been well enough to spend an afternoon opening up the cab and screwing around (literally, there are just so many damn screws) with it, and yes I have an electric drill-driver and I'm still not doing it.

Anyway, of the two cabs, the DG30 cab is one of the best sounding cabinets I've ever laid down tracks with, and it sounds phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal, in the room. I wouldn't change a thing, whatever's in there, I am good with!

The 1x12 is a bit more problematic for me, as I'm just not into 1x12s and I got it just to have a lightweight grab and go thing. I plan to sell it and get another DG cab for my HXDA 30.

However, I'd like to make one comment: I really don't care for the Eminence Governor. I know, made in the USA, and all that, but...I don't think it truly sounds like an old V30 or as good as the Mesa V30, or even as good as a new standard V30. Something about Eminence speakers kind of bugs me, there's an overtone in there, or something. I dunno.

I have no experience at all with the Warehouse Veteran 30. Never heard one. Got any clips?
Les, I totally agree with you on the eminence front(see what I did there?). I had a cab with governors and a Mesa cab with v30's. I got rid of those gov's quick and replaced with Avatar hellatone 60's(their broken in v30's or whatever they are). To me that cab was instantly better than with the gov's. Closer sounding to the Mesa. Different still, with cab construction and the Mesa v30's but far better to my ears. The cab went from sounding a little weird and "off" to sounding "right".
 
Nope, don't own one. I did hear one right next to a V30 in identical cabs and with two different amps. A buddy that has really nice gear got one and was let me hear it in his room with a Two Rock, a Mark III and a JCM 800.

I also can't accurately compare the Mesa V30 to my Governor, because I'm not taking the Mesa V30 out of it's Mesa cab and putting it into a cab that matches the Gov just to do so. And the cabs are very different so I can't swear I know exactly how close they are. I just know this, and while a lot of this is A) subjective and B) subject to what gear you are using it with, that this is fact. The Mesa V30, Emi Governor, and Warehouse Veteran ALL have frequency responses to each other, and to the older V30s. The newer (and I used to know when Celestion changed to the new cone, but can't remember now) cones used on the Celestion models that you get anywhere except for Mesa, have a frequency peak that is at least 2-3dB higher than the old V30s, or the Gov or Vet. That's not subjective, it's quoted spec.

That said, it's that couple dB increase that I object too. It's the "Ice Pick" people complain about. Its there with all of them, but just adding a couple dB as you know from mixing, can be the difference between a nice "clarity" or "cut" and "ice pick." And that's why I prefer Mesa V30, Gov and Vet to Celestion V30. As to what makes the PRS different, I'd love to know as well, but I believe it's related to doping.

Another interesting thing. I agree the Gov doesn't sound just like a Mesa V30. But the lack of ice pick made me prefer it over a stock V30 with about 10 different amps I got to try them both with, and many differently voiced OD pedals, etc.
 
I like my Mesa V30 today...I have the amp in the 5 watt setting, so that probably tones down the ice pick.

I just bought a MojoMojo OD from TC and it sound really good through the Mesa with the V30.
 
. Another interesting thing. I agree the Gov doesn't sound just like a Mesa V30. But the lack of ice pick made me prefer it over a stock V30 with about 10 different amps I got to try them both with, and many differently voiced OD pedals, etc.

Well, there's no doubt that the V30 as it's currently made can be tricky to work with, and a lot depends on the cab, I agree.

As I said (maybe earlier in this thread) I had a Bogner oversized 2x12 a few years back that recorded really well, but I simply couldn't turn the amp up with that cab and be in the same room with it. I think "ice pick" would be a kind description of how that combination sounded; with my old Two-Rock and Hot Cat 30 it was more like "sharp stick in the eardrum."

But dang, that thing sounded good in front of a 57. I can't explain why. The thing just recorded so well! Never needed EQ, even on the low end. Easiest recording cab I've owned, but that was its only use.

Oh, of course I'd love to have another one just like it, because dang, when I say it was easy to record...57, cab, mic preamp, boom! Done! But first I'm going to get another Grissom cab because they record well AND sound fantastic in the room. Which, let's face it, isn't always an easy thing to find! ;)

"Les, wouldn't you save a lot of money and space simply by getting a two head/one cab switch box and using it with the Grissom cab you now have, and maybe get something different?"

"Yes. Fine. You've just talked me into getting something different just for grins. How about a Vertical 212 with rear ports and two Celestion Alnico Cream 90s?"
 
Hey, that sounds like an awesome plan! Since I´m from the other side of the pond (Sweden) I know of no such place at all. Sounds really cool!
Try as much as you can, I´m guessing it will be a lot easier to find what you like with the opportunity to A/B test in an instant like that.
looking forward to hear about it! :)

Well, I took the amp and guitar to Midwest speaker repair and basically stood there in the guitar speaker area with my son for 30 minutes without any assistance from the people working there. My spidy senses got spooked and I didn't want to leave my amp there to have the speaker changed out. I felt the vintage 30 was probably better than what I would find there. So we left.

We went to Guitar Center to trade in a Line 6 practice amp for a couple of pedals. I got a Ditto and a Mojo Mojo OD both from TC electronics. The Mesa with the V30 sounded pretty good with the Mojo when I got home. can still hear the brightness if is play hard, but I have the amp in a 5 watt setting and I think I'll be fine.

What I need now is a pedal board and the proper power supply, which I just posted a new thread about in the general discussion area.
 
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