The Gestalt

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Too Many Notes
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gestalt (also Gestalt) noun (pl. gestalten |-ˈSHtältn, -ˈSHtôltn| or gestalts) Psychology - an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts.

Part I.

The sum total of my thinking about guitars is contained in this word, gestalt.

You have an organized whole - that is, you, and the guitar and its constituent parts, and the music, and the electronics you're plugged into. And you have your perception of the whole. Perception is the big key word that takes us to the realm of psychology and in the case of an instrument, psychoacoustics.

The instrument has whatever characteristics it has, but without you it doesn't make any noise. Your brain, hands, and your perception as you play operate on the instrument to create sound. Your perception of that sound results in certain judgments about the sound you're achieving.

Your perception affects how you feel about the handling characteristics of the guitar.

Someone else playing the very same instrument will create different perceptions, both in you and in that person. Objectively, the sound will be different because of the myriad of ways our intentions operate when we play. Each of us has unique anatomy, and a unique brain that wants to hear perhaps different things.

Examples: Eric Clapton hands me his guitar, plugged into his amp. I have learned his song note for note, bend for bend, vibrato for vibrato. But I will sound different. Clapton will sound like Clapton, I will sound like me playing Clapton's music, and the two will neither objectively be the same, nor will they be perceived by the listener to be the same.

I hand you my Hammer Of The Gods. It is plugged into my HXDA, But when you play one of my tunes, you will sound like you on my guitar, through my amp, and you will perceive the difference between how we each sound. You might prefer one or the other. You might not. You might think we sound exactly alike. I doubt we will. Another listener might perceive differences.

Part II.

Someone posts here asking, "I play classic rock. Should I buy a McCarty or a 513?"

People will jump in and offer their opinions, based on their own perceptions, with their own unique experiences with the instruments, and so on. Based on their gestalt.

Is that going to be the same as your gestalt? Of course not!

That's why none of the posts in response will be the same.

And of course, we all know that you can play any kind of music on any type of electric guitar, it's all a matter of personal choice. To even say, "Well yes, but some work better than others," is to beg the question, since we can all point to any number of musicians who've successfully done all kinds of music on all kinds of instruments, and some have literally transformed the tone of their genre with something truly different - think Hendrix with his Strat. No one sounded like that on a Strat before Hendrix. The conventional wisdom was that it was a twangy guitar. Think Nugent or Steve Howe on their hollowbody so-called "jazz guitars." Et cetera.

The only way to find out if a guitar is for you is to play it. That's it. There's no way around that simple fact, because there's no other way to experience the gestalt of the thing.

You can't get the gestalt from reading, or from talking, or even simply listening to clips. Playing is the only way to experience the gestalt of an instrument.

I've bought guitars that were phenomenal on paper, and that other people absolutely loved, and they were nice, but not for me. I've recommended guitars to friends who've tried them and thought, yeah, this one's fine for someone else, but not for them.

I understand why Paul Smith feels that real guitar dealers' stores are the right place to pick a guitar. He's absolutely, 100% right. It's sad that there are fewer of them around these days, but to me, buying a guitar is like buying a pair of shoes, or a suit.

You don't know if they're a good fit before trying them on, unless you've tried on that make and model before.

That isn't to say buying online is an impossibility. I like surprises, and I'm willing to take a flyer on something interesting, even if it's expensive. You live once, right?

But it's not something I recommend to everyone else. ;)
 
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Part I

One word: Maya. Or, if you want that idea cloaked in smart-Western-person summary form, http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559

That said, Les, I've sat/stood in a booth at NAMM while a large number of (mostly quite good) players passed through and played one of the guitars that we had on display. Which was my guitar. Not one of them sounded like me. Moreover, pretty much all of them had a unique-to-them sound that was quite independent of the notes/chords/phrases/rhythms they chose to play. I'm pretty sure that, had I been blindfolded and the players been IDed as "A, B, C, D, and so on" I could have identified them correctly on a second (also blind) pass through the booth. I'm pretty sure that prediction would hold up even under a restriction such as the one you described, where each player was required to play the exact same bit of music in the exact same way.

Part II

The only way to really get a handle on the gestalt of a particular guitar (or, really, any piece of musical gear) is to buy it, play it, and live with it over a period of time and through a sufficient variety of relevant-to-you experiences. With enough experience you might come to have a handle on what, in general, is likely to work for you and understand how to use that information predictively, e.g., when buying something online without in-hand experience. However that can just as well shut some doors that might have rather stayed open.

Bottom line? No matter how much you think you know about your own musical gestalt, always be prepared to revise what you think you know. (i.e., to be wrong)
 
Part I

One word: Maya. Or, if you want that idea cloaked in smart-Western-person summary form, http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559

That said, Les, I've sat/stood in a booth at NAMM while a large number of (mostly quite good) players passed through and played one of the guitars that we had on display. Which was my guitar. Not one of them sounded like me. Moreover, pretty much all of them had a unique-to-them sound that was quite independent of the notes/chords/phrases/rhythms they chose to play. I'm pretty sure that, had I been blindfolded and the players been IDed as "A, B, C, D, and so on" I could have identified them correctly on a second (also blind) pass through the booth. I'm pretty sure that prediction would hold up even under a restriction such as the one you described, where each player was required to play the exact same bit of music in the exact same way.

Part II

The only way to really get a handle on the gestalt of a particular guitar (or, really, any piece of musical gear) is to buy it, play it, and live with it over a period of time and through a sufficient variety of relevant-to-you experiences. With enough experience you might come to have a handle on what, in general, is likely to work for you and understand how to use that information predictively, e.g., when buying something online without in-hand experience. However that can just as well shut some doors that might have rather stayed open.

Bottom line? No matter how much you think you know about your own musical gestalt, always be prepared to revise what you think you know. (i.e., to be wrong)

A very astute post, and I thank you for adding it!

Also, I downloaded the paper that was linked in your link, and somehow I will struggle through it, but I liked the analogy drawn that a computer interface succeeds because it hides the complexity of the actual workings of the computer and presents a false reality that works in some ways better for us than reality.

Also I know our brains perceive music and tone differently because, well, a good example is Metal. I can only take Metal in small doses. Some guys love it! We all perceive differently!
 
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Well, I either just got real lucky, or PRS are that good a fit for my particular gestalt. I bought both of mine sight unseen from far flung dealers, and they are my #1 and #2 go to instruments among a bunch of pretty darn good guitars.
But, going along with Kingsleyd's point #2, my second PRS (30th CU24) took a few weeks and some tweaking of my setup before it surprassed my earlier P22 as my favorite.
Of course, whether I play either PRS or one of my other guitars, and regardless of which of my amps I play through, I still sound like me.

Tom
 
Well, I either just got real lucky, or PRS are that good a fit for my particular gestalt. I bought both of mine sight unseen from far flung dealers, and they are my #1 and #2 go to instruments among a bunch of pretty darn good guitars.

There are many, many paths. Luck and financial circumstances can play a significant role, sometimes more so than intention and careful analysis.

Compare & contrast the two stories on this page (which is an excerpt from a book, Guitars That Jam, by photographer Jay Blakesberg, which chronicles a number of instruments that players associated -- sometimes not all that closely ;) -- with the "Jam Band" scene.

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22413-guitars-that-jam-book-excerpt?page=3
 
Well, I either just got real lucky, or PRS are that good a fit for my particular gestalt. I bought both of mine sight unseen from far flung dealers, and they are my #1 and #2 go to instruments among a bunch of pretty darn good guitars.
But, going along with Kingsleyd's point #2, my second PRS (30th CU24) took a few weeks and some tweaking of my setup before it surprassed my earlier P22 as my favorite.
Of course, whether I play either PRS or one of my other guitars, and regardless of which of my amps I play through, I still sound like me.

Tom

Both good luck and good fits are the perfect combination!

And yes, you sound like you, but you sound like you on a PRS, if you get my meaning. :)
 
Les, you are more than welcome to stop by Castillo Furtivo any time. From reading your thoughts on sound, I believe you and I have landed on more than a few of the same general understandings. Great to see someone go into these details because I know in real life, it tends to bore a lot of people out of their skulls.

"No, you don't get it. This is why my guitar sounds good! I know *why*! I can now perform magic at will!" It might be my own weird version of magic, but I do know my gear well enough to coax the sounds I want out of it. Of course, it always sounds like me based on points you've outlined. Understanding your tools, your own ability, and the environment you're playing in is - imo - key to being a good player. And that trifecta can appear in many different forms.

I do understand why you place such emphasis on having the best tools available - this is your vocation. Personally, one thing that puts a smile on my face at this point in my life is walking into a room containing more than a few guitars to choose from, and being able to crank the Marshall at any hour. Finding a house with a living room that met my acoustic needs was the crowning touch of buying a great home; I knew that the proper environment would work better with my creative needs (as you have your own studio organized to a zen state).
 
My gestalt seems to be ever changing..some days I love my CE, others it just doesn't sound right and I play the 408. both are wonderful guitars and I wouldn't think about unloading them(I know, never say never!) I'm still learning to utilize all the parts contributing to the gestalt, and will continue to get more and more comfortable with them as they get played more. I enjoy the discovery, and kinda hope I never get comfortable enough to say "this is it, I've found my "sound"":cool:
 
Kingdleyd wrote, "The only way to really get a handle on the gestalt of a particular guitar (or, really, any piece of musical gear) is to buy it, play it, and live with it over aperiod of time and through a sufficient variety of relevant-to-you experiences."

I agree 100% with this statement. Hence I have no hesitation ordering on line with a return policy. Playing a guitar for an hour in a store tells me nothing about how the relationship will evolve over time in my life's environment.
 
Les, I like your posts because they are thought provoking in a very musical sense. I think the message is and what sounds great to you based on your playing style and musical tastes, yet, be open when you hear a guy blasting 2112 on an es 355.
 
Les, I like your posts because they are thought provoking in a very musical sense. I think the message is and what sounds great to you based on your playing style and musical tastes, yet, be open when you hear a guy blasting 2112 on an es 355.
The guy blasting 2112 on an es355!is my idol! We're not worthy, we're not worthy!
 
But even Fritz Perls said, “Lose your mind and come to your senses.” I say this because it is the only means of letting go of your perspective. I work with this concept on a daily basis. We have a mentality that believe everything we think, but the truth is what we think on any given day may not be the same the following (or ever again). Perspective only matters in the now. If I believe that my DGT through my Bogner Shiva is the only way for me to "get my tone" then my McCarty has little chance of being picked up, yet the neck is simply like butter! So Les lose your mind, come to your senses...give me your DG30 :p
 
The guy blasting 2112 on an es355!is my idol! We're not worthy, we're not worthy!

Two solos that make my heart stop today is on La Vill Strangiato by Alex and Adventures from a Yorkshire Landscape by Bill Nelson from Bebop Deluxe. Both 355's.
 
Kingdleyd wrote, "The only way to really get a handle on the gestalt of a particular guitar (or, really, any piece of musical gear) is to buy it, play it, and live with it over aperiod of time and through a sufficient variety of relevant-to-you experiences."

I agree 100% with this statement. Hence I have no hesitation ordering on line with a return policy. Playing a guitar for an hour in a store tells me nothing about how the relationship will evolve over time in my life's environment.
+1 - One really needs to see how the guitar sounds with you own amp, pedals etc, in your own environment. You can decide about the quality and feel/fit at a store but the tone art of the equation needs more time.
I will only buy PRS guitars on line because I am very confident that the quality & feel/fit will be acceptable. That is not the case for any other of the major guitar manufacturers.
 
Les, I like your posts because they are thought provoking in a very musical sense. I think the message is and what sounds great to you based on your playing style and musical tastes, yet, be open when you hear a guy blasting 2112 on an es 355.

I try to be open to everything, and thanks!

On the other hand, I did have to use Google to find out what 2112 is.
 
gestalt (also Gestalt) noun (pl. gestalten |-ˈSHtältn, -ˈSHtôltn| or gestalts) Psychology - an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts.

Part I.

The sum total of my thinking about guitars is contained in this word, gestalt.

You have an organized whole - that is, you, and the guitar and its constituent parts, and the music, and the electronics you're plugged into. And you have your perception of the whole. Perception is the big key word that takes us to the realm of psychology and in the case of an instrument, psychoacoustics.

The instrument has whatever characteristics it has, but without you it doesn't make any noise. Your brain, hands, and your perception as you play operate on the instrument to create sound. Your perception of that sound results in certain judgments about the sound you're achieving.

Your perception affects how you feel about the handling characteristics of the guitar.

Someone else playing the very same instrument will create different perceptions, both in you and in that person. Objectively, the sound will be different because of the myriad of ways our intentions operate when we play. Each of us has unique anatomy, and a unique brain that wants to hear perhaps different things.

Examples: Eric Clapton hands me his guitar, plugged into his amp. I have learned his song note for note, bend for bend, vibrato for vibrato. But I will sound different. Clapton will sound like Clapton, I will sound like me playing Clapton's music, and the two will neither objectively be the same, nor will they be perceived by the listener to be the same.

I hand you my Hammer Of The Gods. It is plugged into my HXDA, But when you play one of my tunes, you will sound like you on my guitar, through my amp, and you will perceive the difference between how we each sound. You might prefer one or the other. You might not. You might think we sound exactly alike. I doubt we will. Another listener might perceive differences.

Part II.

Someone posts here asking, "I play classic rock. Should I buy a McCarty or a 513?"

People will jump in and offer their opinions, based on their own perceptions, with their own unique experiences with the instruments, and so on. Based on their gestalt.

Is that going to be the same as your gestalt? Of course not!

That's why none of the posts in response will be the same.

And of course, we all know that you can play any kind of music on any type of electric guitar, it's all a matter of personal choice. To even say, "Well yes, but some work better than others," is to beg the question, since we can all point to any number of musicians who've successfully done all kinds of music on all kinds of instruments, and some have literally transformed the tone of their genre with something truly different - think Hendrix with his Strat. No one sounded like that on a Strat before Hendrix. The conventional wisdom was that it was a twangy guitar. Think Nugent or Steve Howe on their hollowbody so-called "jazz guitars." Et cetera.

The only way to find out if a guitar is for you is to play it. That's it. There's no way around that simple fact, because there's no other way to experience the gestalt of the thing.

You can't get the gestalt from reading, or from talking, or even simply listening to clips. Playing is the only way to experience the gestalt of an instrument.

I've bought guitars that were phenomenal on paper, and that other people absolutely loved, and they were nice, but not for me. I've recommended guitars to friends who've tried them and thought, yeah, this one's fine for someone else, but not for them.

I understand why Paul Smith feels that real guitar dealers' stores are the right place to pick a guitar. He's absolutely, 100% right. It's sad that there are fewer of them around these days, but to me, buying a guitar is like buying a pair of shoes, or a suit.

You don't know if they're a good fit before trying them on, unless you've tried on that make and model before.

That isn't to say buying online is an impossibility. I like surprises, and I'm willing to take a flyer on something interesting, even if it's expensive. You live once, right?

But it's not something I recommend to everyone else. ;)


You are totally correct to my way of thinking, Les. I salute your astute thinking.

I unfortunately fall into the sh^t hole category where my alternatives are dictated for me in extremely limited ways, as we have discussed.

I chuckle when I read that you need to go to a music store to try a given guitar or amp, or whatever. While this is the most sensible way to try anything, which I totally agree with you on, I haven't been able to do that in nearly 30 years. I even buy my shirts and shoes on line. Believe me , it sucks out loud!

I think I would rather try to land a plane blind without any previous flying lessons in total fog and rain before ordering a private stock guitar as I know I will have too, but I look at it this way...If I get lucky, and land the plane successfully, which equates to being happy with the PS guitar I finally wind up with, I can walk way from the landing. If I crash the plane on attempting to land, which equates to having not been successful in being happy with a PS I order, I will be dead, in which case no one will give a sh^t anyway.

In that case my gestalt will be a hole in the ground with the sum of my parts spread out all over the place. :)
 
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You are totally correct to my way of thinking, Les. I salute your astute thinking.

I unfortunately fall into the sh^t hole category where my alternatives are dictated for me in extremely limited ways, as we have discussed.

I chuckle when I read that you need to go to a music store to try a given guitar or amp, or whatever. While this is the most sensible way to try anything, which I totally agree with you on, I haven't been able to do that in nearly 30 years. I even buy my shirts and shoes on line. Believe me , it sucks out loud!

I think I would rather try to land a plane blind without any previous flying lessons in total fog and rain before ordering a private stock guitar as I know I will have too, but I look at it this way...If I get lucky, and land the plane successfully, which equates to being happy with the PS guitar I finally wind up with, I can walk way from the landing. If I crash the plane on attempting to land, which equates to having not been successful in being happy with a PS I order, I will be dead, in which case no one will give a sh^t anyway.

In that case my gestalt will be a hole in the ground with the sum of my parts spread out all over the place. :)

You, sir, have NOT been given permission to crash that plane! So you will live.

So let it be written. So let it be done!
 
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