Tuning Stability Issues

[dogrocketp]

I’m still convinced there is a mechanical problem with the Trem. At next string change, take the low A string and run it through the high E, B and G string slots. Rub up and down to remove any possible burrs. I also discovered that the windings directly above the ball somtimes catch when you raise or lower the Trem. In my S2, I cannot use DR Tite- fits. I kept breaking the B & G strings. I never break strings, even with my bending.

 

[Jason Smith]

Hey all, it looks as though a couple of manufacturers, including PRS are now addressing these issues. The issue being saddle slippage on floating vintage-style and two-point vintage style trems and the resolution being locking the strings to the saddle.

I bend heavy so it's a big issue for me. It's a shame prs doesn't offer a drop in replacement for their S2 line. I really do love playing my S2, with the exception of the tuning instability and no, I won't play on a Floyd Rose.

I'm going to try the Wilkinson locking saddles and hope it does the trick.

 

[Tone-y]

I bought the Wilkinson saddles as soon as they became available. Definitely works on my Strat. They start to slip if you deck the trem bar against the body, but for anything up to that they hold tune perfectly. And that's with a bone nut and vintage non locking machine heads

 

[CandidPicker]

Hello,

I’m currently playing a PRS S2 Standard 24 and an Ernie Ball Musicman Albert Lee MM90 which both have tuning stability issues after a dive on the vibrato. After a dive, the strings(all of them) go sharp. With a slight tug of about an inch off the fretboard, it returns to perfect pitch. I've performed some basic tests using only one string, one spring, and two mounting screws.

I’ve tried the following:

• Set the bridge up to exact PRS specifications
• Using lubrication on every point of string contact(nut, saddle, ball),
• Lubrication on all moving parts(under saddle, mounting screws, saddle screws),
• Locking tuners(of various brands)
• Floating the vibrato
• Decking the vibrato
• Swapped Vibratos(between PRS, USA-made Ernie Ball, Super-Vee BladeRunner)
• Ensured the nut is glued in place and not shifting
• Changed between 4 manufacturer/makes of string brand(GHS, Fender, D’Addardio XL & NYXL)
• Springs & tension: Tried the "chicken claw" and parallel methods, both straight and angled
• And of course, stretched the strings to varying amounts

After much troubleshooting, I’ve determined that it’s an issue with the vibrato on both of them(which with a search online seems to be a common issue with strat vibratos). For example, when you dive on the vibrato, and return to resting position, after it increases in pitch, with needle-nose pliers, pull on the string from the headstock toward the bridge, it doesn’t go back to the correct pitch. However, if you pull on the string FROM the bridge, towards the headstock, it goes back to perfect pitch. Thus led to my conclusion that it's an issue with the vibrato.

My thought is that it's catching on something, however, with enough lubrication, it should slip back to pitch. Though the lubrication doesn't have any effect at all. Again this issues is prevailing on two different guitars having used three different bridges that all base around a similar design.

I've reached out Sean Littleton about the issue, but maybe with my observations written out in detail, it might present itself a little more clearly. If you get a chance to perform this dive bomb test with an accurate tuner, I've love to hear your feedback.

Thank you so much for taking the time read this lengthy post and thank you in advance for getting back to me when you do.

Sincerest and kindest regards,

Jason Smith

Jason,

Here are 2 videos from John Ingram who shows us how to set-up and intonate a PRS correctly. John addresses the issue about tuning and trem bars there. He emphasizes that you not need re-tune, but merely use the trem bar to bring the strings back into tune again.

 

[CyFan4036]

Old thread but since i read it before I realized it here's my two cents. Better quality springs have always cured this problem for me. They provide a much more consistent spring rate from fully stretched to compressed.

 

[Eddie kim]

Old thread but since i read it before I realized it here's my two cents. Better quality springs have always cured this problem for me. They provide a much more consistent spring rate from fully stretched to compressed.

What do you consider better quality springs?

 

[CyFan4036]

What do you consider better quality springs?

Like I said in my post, springs with a consistent spring rate.

 

[dogrocketp]

I’m curious to know if you discovered a brand of spring, or a place to buy them. I think both Eddie and I would love to find some to try. My old CE 24 could sure use a set.

 

[CyFan4036]

I’m curious to know if you discovered a brand of spring, or a place to buy them. I think both Eddie and I would love to find some to try. My old CE 24 could sure use a set.

I use these but the red ones are more popular. I find that the heavier tension, although it takes some getting used to, provides enough tension to bring everything back into tune without having to pull up on the arm.
http://www.fu-tone.com/catalog/inde...ducts_id=308&zenid=9fav6t26q4kd2cvf4ahhc297m2

 

[Jason Smith]

Jason,

Here are 2 videos from John Ingram who shows us how to set-up and intonate a PRS correctly. John addresses the issue about tuning and trem bars there. He emphasizes that you not need re-tune, but merely use the trem bar to bring the strings back into tune again.

LOL!

 

[Jason Smith]

Funny how someone can properly demonstrate an issue with several makes and models of guitars and trems and someone else is going to come back with, "you don't know how to setup a guitar". No, it's that you don't use your damn trem beyond a half-step bend. OR... your guitar is out of tune and you can't tell... which YouTube is full of evidence of guitar players that go, "twwwwwaanng, See? Still in tune."

 

[shimmilou]

Gotta wonder how countless professionals, such as Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, EVH, John Petrucci, etc, manage to keep their guitars in tune even with extreme whammy use.

A Strat vintage style vibrato going out of tune is understandable, there is no pivot point, no precision.

 

[CyFan4036]

Locking nuts and a Floyd Rose?

 

[Jason Smith]

Gotta wonder how countless professionals, such as Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, EVH, John Petrucci, etc, manage to keep their guitars in tune even with extreme whammy use.

A Strat vintage style vibrato going out of tune is understandable, there is no pivot point, no precision.

You really didn't watch the videos I posted or read through the thread, huh? PRS guitars use a stable pivot point, as do musicman guitars and countless others that employ a modern strat style vibrato and a knife edge. The older simple screw through a hole, yeah, those are heaps of trouble.

 

[dogrocketp]

Locking nuts and a Floyd Rose?

This didn’t work out so well for me on a custom guitar. I got into PRS trems, and other than my old CE they’re all great. I’m hoping a new set of springs will get it right. Other than that, it’s an Old warhorse that has been rebuilt from the ground up, with a new Mann trem. I don’t love the new springs.

 

[Outlier22]

Ok, since this older thread has come back, I thought I should update with my resolution on tuning stability issues. I've posted this elsewhere but reposting it here so nobody stumbles over this is just an issue PRS owners have to deal with... My CE24 is absolutely perfect now!

So back at least a year ago and probably more, my 2016 CE24 had a few issues. First was tuning stability was off a bit and the second issues was the low E string was too close to the edge of the fretboard and would fall off the side of the fretboard too easily.

I brought this to my local shop and they were able to re-set the bolt on neck in what looked like the correct position. This mostly corrected the issue with the low E string pushing off the fret board. They also did a setup and the guitar and did a lot of work on the nut to ensure strings could move through freely. It stayed mostly in tune after this except when using the trem arm - and then the G string would go out of tune slightly.
They luthier was sure it was not an issue with the nut. So I told myself I would just not use the trem since I don't use them much anyway, but it bothered me so I ended up looking up info on youtube on how to set the PRS bridge. I noticed the bridge was lower than spec so I adjusted the set screws. After that tuning stability was god awful with or without the trem bar! I made it way worse, so I read more and watched more videos including the john Mann video a few pages back and discovered that messing with the bridge set screws when under tension from the strings and springs messes up the knife edge balance. So I re-set the bridge again with strings loosened and springs out and this mostly corrected the issue.

But I still wasn't totally happy. I still found the G string going out of tune when using the trem. And I still had a slight issue with pushing the strings off the fretboard. It was vastly improved but still bothered me. So I sent the guitar to the PTC. It cost a lot to ship it to them and I was not convinced they could fix it without a new neck or frets or something. However, Sean sent me a message that they fixed the guitar and were sending it back. He said they re-set the bridge to the correct height (I must have gone too high??) and replaced the nut. They also re-seated the neck which I guess wasn't quite lined up after my local tech fixed it. I wasn't convinced these fixes would do anything but I was wrong.

I don't know which fix had the biggest impact. Probably the nut for tuning stability. The new nut may have helped with the issue with low E string as well??? (maybe the old nut was cut with low e string spaced to far from a string???) What I do know is that the guitar stays in tune now with out without the bar. It's awesome! It's perfect! The best part was the PTC fixed it for free under warranty! If anyone has issues they can't resolve on their own, I would highly recommend sending the guitar to the PTC!

 

[Jason Smith]

But can you do a hard dive and have it return to perfect pitch verifying said pitch with a tuner?

Ok, since this older thread has come back, I thought I should update with my resolution on tuning stability issues. I've posted this elsewhere but reposting it here so nobody stumbles over this is just an issue PRS owners have to deal with... My CE24 is absolutely perfect now!

So back at least a year ago and probably more, my 2016 CE24 had a few issues. First was tuning stability was off a bit and the second issues was the low E string was too close to the edge of the fretboard and would fall off the side of the fretboard too easily.

I brought this to my local shop and they were able to re-set the bolt on neck in what looked like the correct position. This mostly corrected the issue with the low E string pushing off the fret board. They also did a setup and the guitar and did a lot of work on the nut to ensure strings could move through freely. It stayed mostly in tune after this except when using the trem arm - and then the G string would go out of tune slightly.
They luthier was sure it was not an issue with the nut. So I told myself I would just not use the trem since I don't use them much anyway, but it bothered me so I ended up looking up info on youtube on how to set the PRS bridge. I noticed the bridge was lower than spec so I adjusted the set screws. After that tuning stability was god awful with or without the trem bar! I made it way worse, so I read more and watched more videos including the john Mann video a few pages back and discovered that messing with the bridge set screws when under tension from the strings and springs messes up the knife edge balance. So I re-set the bridge again with strings loosened and springs out and this mostly corrected the issue.

But I still wasn't totally happy. I still found the G string going out of tune when using the trem. And I still had a slight issue with pushing the strings off the fretboard. It was vastly improved but still bothered me. So I sent the guitar to the PTC. It cost a lot to ship it to them and I was not convinced they could fix it without a new neck or frets or something. However, Sean sent me a message that they fixed the guitar and were sending it back. He said they re-set the bridge to the correct height (I must have gone too high??) and replaced the nut. They also re-seated the neck which I guess wasn't quite lined up after my local tech fixed it. I wasn't convinced these fixes would do anything but I was wrong.

I don't know which fix had the biggest impact. Probably the nut for tuning stability. The new nut may have helped with the issue with low E string as well??? (maybe the old nut was cut with low e string spaced to far from a string???) What I do know is that the guitar stays in tune now with out without the bar. It's awesome! It's perfect! The best part was the PTC fixed it for free under warranty! If anyone has issues they can't resolve on their own, I would highly recommend sending the guitar to the PTC!

 

[shimmilou]

You really didn't watch the videos I posted or read through the thread, huh?.....

Uuuhhhh, yes, yes I did. The first video of the two that you posted stated "all" floating bridges, and included Floyd systems. What part of my response did you not understand?

 

[bodia]

But can you do a hard dive and have it return to perfect pitch verifying said pitch with a tuner?

I can do this without fail. Bar to the body, and back, in tune. I know the guy in this parody video tuned his PRS once, and did an 8 hour shoot without having to retune. The guy playing the other guitar was retuning constantly throughout the day. It is possible to get it there.

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I can do this without fail. Bar to the body, and back, in tune. I know the guy in this parody video tuned his PRS once, and did an 8 hour shoot without having to retune. The guy playing the other guitar was retuning constantly throughout the day. It is possible to get it there.

Viva Brazil!