Do I go Modeler or Not

I don't think Helix has any 'Awesome' presets - which lets them down when your looking for inspiration or testing to buy. Everything needs tweaking, dialling in etc. Its almost as if they turn things up too much to be so apparent instead of being more nuanced and subtle.

Often its easier to start from a scratch as if you walked into a music store and given the opportunity to build your own rig from all the amps, cabs and pedals in the room. You wouldn't 'start' with a set-up already made and then tweak all the parameters. You'd probably start with the Amp/Cab, dial that in to get the 'base' sound you want first and then add in any pedals, dialling 'each' in as you build your 'sound' - and I think that's the 'easier' way to go with modellers too. It can be more option overload when you start with a pre-built patch with multiple blocks that all need tweaking so building up a patch from scratch can be a lot easier.

I will never own a line 6 product again after the letdown that was the Helix. Usable out of the box presents, or lack of, was a major thing.

I will disagree on starting from scratch. I like to reverse engineer a good preset. If you've never baked a cake before, you need a recipe, right? Figuring out presets is similar. A good preset gives you a basic recipe that one can use as a template for creating other presets. The problem with the Helix was not having good presets to start with and then being subsequently lost with no sense of direction from there.
 
Fractal Audio FM9 fan here. Utilizing stereo HeadRush FRFR108s. Somewhat of a learning curve know how to build your rig, but after "reading the fine manual", viewing many of the YouTube G66 Channel Leon Todd videos for reference, being part of the Fractal Forum and researching/asking how-to questions, most all of what I'd ever need for amps/effect/cabs are fulfilled in the FM9 unit.

OS/firmware updates can be downloaded at no charge occasionally, the Fractal Forum has plenty of active users who also beta test the OS/firmware for improvements/wishlist items until the complete version is provided at no charge.

Designed to be used with either Windows, Mac, or Linux via either their Axe III-Edit, their FM9-Edit, or FM3-Edit software. Compatible with current OS systems, so no worries upgrading to the current OS if you're concerned about OS security updates not being up to grade with older version OS.

As @RickP said, Fractal offers high-end amp/effect/cab sampling with oodles (did I really say that?) of tone on tap. Over 380 factory presets, and over 500 user slots with which you can build your presets/scenes. 1024 factory cab models. Over 250 different effects.
 
Fractal Audio FM9 fan here. Utilizing stereo HeadRush FRFR108s. Somewhat of a learning curve know how to build your rig, but after "reading the fine manual", viewing many of the YouTube G66 Channel Leon Todd videos for reference, being part of the Fractal Forum and researching/asking how-to questions, most all of what I'd ever need for amps/effect/cabs are fulfilled in the FM9 unit.

OS/firmware updates can be downloaded at no charge occasionally, the Fractal Forum has plenty of active users who also beta test the OS/firmware for improvements/wishlist items until the complete version is provided at no charge.

Designed to be used with either Windows, Mac, or Linux via either their Axe III-Edit, their FM9-Edit, or FM3-Edit software. Compatible with current OS systems, so no worries upgrading to the current OS if you're concerned about OS security updates not being up to grade with older version OS.

As @RickP said, Fractal offers high-end amp/effect/cab sampling with oodles (did I really say that?) of tone on tap. Over 380 factory presets, and over 500 user slots with which you can build your presets/scenes. 1024 factory cab models. Over 250 different effects.

Wow. For my purposes the Fractal range is super overkill. Hell, the Helix HX Stomp XL that I just landed is even a little bit feature rich for what my uses are. Realistically, I need about five of the amp models, two or three of the cab models, two of the reverb models, two of the delay models, one modulation model, and like three of the boost/OD/distortion models...and of course a noise gate. All the rest of the stuff is where I fall into the trap of tinkering instead of playing.
 
Wow. For my purposes the Fractal range is super overkill. Hell, the Helix HX Stomp XL that I just landed is even a little bit feature rich for what my uses are. Realistically, I need about five of the amp models, two or three of the cab models, two of the reverb models, two of the delay models, one modulation model, and like three of the boost/OD/distortion models...and of course a noise gate. All the rest of the stuff is where I fall into the trap of tinkering instead of playing.

That is the beauty of modeling devices...so much value for your dollar, much farther beyond what 1 or 2 amps could do with an effects array...

Many amp purists will tell you the air-pushing feeling won't be there with FRFRs, which is OK IMHO, because the volume is still there with much more.

My personal feeling is that your modeler options are so far beyond what anyone could physically own or be able to store in one space, when you can dial it all in on your computer and set up how many presets you might need for 2 or 3 songs, or an entire week's worth of songs. There's really so much to choose from, and it can be a bit overwhelming.

The key is to listen to several types of amps you might like, and bookmark color-code them. Then, do the same with a variety of cabs. You can set up a template preset that has a stock preset with scenes for clean, crunch, lead, and hot lead. Add a looper block and record a patch of yourself jamming on a brief progression. Then use the preset, and test-drive various amps through a given cab. You'll find at least one that works the best for each of the scenes. Then, do the same for your cabs.

Once your happy with a basic dry signal, you can add drive, and modulation, as much as the CPU limits will allow. With the Axe III, FM9, and FM3, the CPU limit is about 80% before it gives you a warning and shuts off the signal for overloading the circuit. The Axe III has twice the processing power of the FM9, and 4 times that of the FM3. You learn to be frugal with what effects you choose in order to save using CPU.

@RickP will tell you modeling devices can be a godsend in live situations where plugging into a PA system is better than lugging multiple 4x12s onto stage, along with their amp head counterparts. Essentially, with some modelers you can dial in 2 amps and 4 cabinets for just about any situation you might need for any given song, then with a separate preset, you've got an entirely new blank slate with which you can create more presets for whatever your needs might be.

I've currently got about 6 presets built for most of what I might use for an open-mic set. A Main Rig, then a couple presets for blues and smooth jazz ala Larry Carlton, a couple presets for my PRS HBII Piezo, and an arena type preset for reaching large audiences. There is really so much more on tap with this devices.

Tinkering becomes a way of thinking for modeler tweakers...you'll discover a lot of interesting ways of creating and building presets if you take the time to view any instructional videos posted on YouTube for your benefit. The mindset of "use your ears, not your eyes" actually helps you choose what sounds best, instead of relying on what you think you see with any given associated name or brand. What you think might sound good with one amp may not sound good with another, so that's where it pays to use your ears.

Regards the world of modelers, think of the time and energy you'll save lugging a small floorboard and a floor monitor, instead of an amp head and cab. As we all grow older, we look for more efficient ways that help us cope with the everyday aches and pains we might experience, and try to think of ways we can prevent hurting ourselves unnecessarily. A floorboard unit is much lighter weight than an amp/cab, and if the venue already has a soundboard mixer to plug into, you've solved part of the problem of being burdened with too much weight.

Best wishes. May your efforts prove fruitful and may you enjoy your modeling device.
 
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My only "gig" is playing at church where I play either guitar or bass. For bass I used a Zoom B3 but for guitar I was using a Peavey Classic 30, a 2x12 cabinet and a pedal board. Got real tired up lugging all that stuff up from the basement to the car, into the church and back again. Plus, I'm soon to be 69 and with my back and knees acting up to some degree I really wanted to lighten up the load so I bought a Pod Go to use for guitar and bass. For my needs and wants I couldn't be happier. All my amps, cabinets and pedals now all fit in a suitcase!

Went through a lot of trial and error to find what would be best suited for the music we play and so far for guitar I'm favoring the Vox AC30 Fawn amp model with a 2x12 IR with Silver Bell speakers. To me, the IR's made a noticeable difference. The have more of a realistic depth and definition and dialing in a sound with the IR's was much easier than with the stock cab's. The problem with the stock cab's is there's too many options. Mic type, distance to the cab, room ambience etc. With the IR's it's like "here's the mic's we used. You've got your low and high cut, mix and level. Go for it." Choice is good and while it's nice having options I found I was getting lost with all the options with the stock cab's. The IR's made it much easier for me.

So far I seem to prefer certain amp models over others. I like the mentioned Vox but I also like certain Matchless and Fender amp models with their IR's that I purchased from Worship Tutorials. I like those models because the higher end has a certain strength to it (more meat and potatoes) compared to other models.

It's like anything else in that you have to work with it. I can't compare the Pod Go with other modelers because this is the only one I have any experience with. But again, for my needs and wants I couldn't be happier.
 
Totally agreed in terms of the IRs. I'm playing once or twice a week in a cover band, so I need a range of tones from clean and chimey to total filth. For the clean tones, I'm really digging the Placater Clean (Friedman BE 100 clean channel), Mandarin Rocker with the gain rolled off (Rockerverb 100 MKIII) and the Archetype Clean (PRS Archon 100 clean channel). For dirty tones, I really like the Compulsive Drive into the clean Archetype or I use the Mandarin boosted a little bit with an OD to tighten up the low end. Cabwise, I've been sticking with an Orange 2x12 with Celestion Creamback speakers that I pulled from Celestionplus.

With this setup, I'm able to get all the tones that I need. I am giving thought to putting a delay and reverb pedal into the effects loop of the HX to try to free up some DSP. Who knows, so many dang options and I haven't even scratched the surface of what this thing can do.
 
Totally agreed in terms of the IRs. I'm playing once or twice a week in a cover band, so I need a range of tones from clean and chimey to total filth. For the clean tones, I'm really digging the Placater Clean (Friedman BE 100 clean channel), Mandarin Rocker with the gain rolled off (Rockerverb 100 MKIII) and the Archetype Clean (PRS Archon 100 clean channel). For dirty tones, I really like the Compulsive Drive into the clean Archetype or I use the Mandarin boosted a little bit with an OD to tighten up the low end. Cabwise, I've been sticking with an Orange 2x12 with Celestion Creamback speakers that I pulled from Celestionplus.

With this setup, I'm able to get all the tones that I need. I am giving thought to putting a delay and reverb pedal into the effects loop of the HX to try to free up some DSP. Who knows, so many dang options and I haven't even scratched the surface of what this thing can do.

Are you using a Pod Go? If so I'll have to try some of what you suggested. For clean sounds I'm also experimenting with the Soldono Lead Clean with a Matchless G12H IR. I use Snapshot mode and so far I only have Snapshot 1 set up for the bridge pickup. But so far it's a very clean, strong and robust sound. One of my fav's!
 
I'm using HX Stomp XL, but the models between the Helix HX Stomp and POD Go line are the same, the only real differences are that the HX Stomp doesn't have an in built expression pedal and it will also allow for slightly more intricate signal chains to be created, though POD Go has two additional blocks over HX Stomp.

I've also been using the Snapshot mode almost exclusively and on the couple of patches that I have built, I can have all four sounds I'll need in a given song. I'm assuming that if I configure everything I can probably have all that I need in just those patches.

As for the Soldano clean amp model, I'll have to give it a try.
 
I'm using HX Stomp XL, but the models between the Helix HX Stomp and POD Go line are the same, the only real differences are that the HX Stomp doesn't have an in built expression pedal and it will also allow for slightly more intricate signal chains to be created, though POD Go has two additional blocks over HX Stomp.

I've also been using the Snapshot mode almost exclusively and on the couple of patches that I have built, I can have all four sounds I'll need in a given song. I'm assuming that if I configure everything I can probably have all that I need in just those patches.

As for the Soldano clean amp model, I'll have to give it a try.

Glad it's all working out for you. I avoided Snapshot mode until I bought those patches from Worship Tutorials. Of course, I had to tailor them to work for me but so far so good. The patches come with IR's and this was my first exposure to them. No going back.
 
I have a Kemper Stage and Fractal FM9. Both are great. I would recommend a Kemper Stage for a first unit. The Fractal gets deep fast. It is one of my least favorite things about it. If you are experienced with these types of things you will figure it out. If you are not, it will go over your head fast. It seems everything on it is complicated and takes time to dial in. I had great tones out of my Kemper much, much faster. People will tell you that you don't have to go into the deep parameters with Fractal but you do if you want it to have more of the feel of a real tube amp. There are a few settings that IMHO you just have to learn about or you may get a negative opinion of the unit.
 
I will never own a line 6 product again after the letdown that was the Helix. Usable out of the box presents, or lack of, was a major thing.

I will disagree on starting from scratch. I like to reverse engineer a good preset. If you've never baked a cake before, you need a recipe, right? Figuring out presets is similar. A good preset gives you a basic recipe that one can use as a template for creating other presets. The problem with the Helix was not having good presets to start with and then being subsequently lost with no sense of direction from there.

This is a valid criticism of a lot of products that employ software that can be difficult to use from scratch - of course, it all depends on one's point of view and personal needs, but if it's not easy to get your tone with, then what's the dang point?

Even though I avoid modelers except as scratch pads, I don't mind creating presets from scratch; I'm probably the exception, in that I've been creating sounds with synths, samplers, and other stuff (hardware and software) for over 35 years. So it's easy because I'm so used to it. Heck, people pay me to be a sound designer on projects, and that means a lot of 'start from scratch' work.

Nonetheless, I completely understand where you're coming from. Slogging through ten zillion presets to find a couple of usable starting points is torture. And if you're not the one being paid to come up with presets? Yeah, even more torture!! :eek:

I'm happiest when I have a real amp as a starting point. Turn a few knobs. No menu-diving. No 'learn the indecipherable operating system'. Turn the darn thing on, dial in something I like. Bliss. Pure bliss.
 
This is a valid criticism of a lot of products that employ software that can be difficult to use from scratch - of course, it all depends on one's point of view and personal needs, but if it's not easy to get your tone with, then what's the dang point?

Even though I avoid modelers except as scratch pads, I don't mind creating presets from scratch; I'm probably the exception, in that I've been creating sounds with synths, samplers, and other stuff (hardware and software) for over 35 years. So it's easy because I'm so used to it. Heck, people pay me to be a sound designer on projects, and that means a lot of 'start from scratch' work.

Nonetheless, I completely understand where you're coming from. Slogging through ten zillion presets to find a couple of usable starting points is torture. And if you're not the one being paid to come up with presets? Yeah, even more torture!! :eek:

I'm happiest when I have a real amp as a starting point. Turn a few knobs. No menu-diving. No 'learn the indecipherable operating system'. Turn the darn thing on, dial in something I like. Bliss. Pure bliss.

I'll admit, my HX stomp didn't have a lot in the way of useable factory presets, but after some tweaking on a couple of them, I was able to develop a base foundation tone that I could copy and paste blocks to a new patch and then from there, just make the changes that suit my needs for the tone I'm after. I will also concede that most modelers have absolute option overload for my needs as an amp, cab, and pedalboard replacement for live use, but then if a unit were as stripped down as what I need for my purposes, it wouldn't fit the needs of those that use it for recording and reamping, etc. At the end of the day, I suppose it's like many such things, better to have and not need than to need and not have.
 
Yep the stock presets are rubbish. The tonejunkies are good, some free ones to test.

My goto for headphones is still based upon a free jtm normal patch he had. Try putting stereo effect as last block with headphones, sounds great

 
I have a Kemper Stage and Fractal FM9. Both are great. I would recommend a Kemper Stage for a first unit. The Fractal gets deep fast. It is one of my least favorite things about it. If you are experienced with these types of things you will figure it out. If you are not, it will go over your head fast. It seems everything on it is complicated and takes time to dial in. I had great tones out of my Kemper much, much faster. People will tell you that you don't have to go into the deep parameters with Fractal but you do if you want it to have more of the feel of a real tube amp. There are a few settings that IMHO you just have to learn about or you may get a negative opinion of the unit.

@JasonE,

I'm on board with you regards this. Fractal has its FM9-Edit software that makes it much easier to dial in tones, and there are many general presets one can use as a starting point for tailoring your own presets/scenes.

The amp blocks that I found useful were the Vibro Verb (culled from an EJ Clean preset), BandCommander, 1987X Normal (Marshall amp), Friedman BE 2020, ODS-100, ODS-100 Mid Push, ODS-100 HRM, Brit JM45, Tube Pre, Friedman Dirty Shirley, and Shiver Clean (based from a Bogner Shiva).

Selecting the correct cab IR is part of the learning curve, and you get a quick lesson from studying Leon Todd's YouTube 'G66' channel. Lots of helpful advice regards all things Fractal and beyond.

TBH, it did take the better part of 2 weeks for me to be won over to Fractal. The first several days of tweaking the unit and getting it set up for my needs was indeed a trip through uncharted territory...thankfully, the Fractal Forum, the owner's manual, Wiki pages, and YT got me off to a good start.
 
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After tinkering some more last night, I have three patches that are "MY" tone. One that's my clean, crunch, heavy crunch and lead tone, a duplicate, but with everything set up for a brighter overall tone for really down tuned guitars, and a third that uses the amp model for everything from clean through saturated lead. The problem I'm realizing is that I can't decide whether to splurge on an expression pedal to toss a wah block into the front of each patch or whether I should use my tried and true JC95 Crybaby. More options overload.
 
After tinkering some more last night, I have three patches that are "MY" tone. One that's my clean, crunch, heavy crunch and lead tone, a duplicate, but with everything set up for a brighter overall tone for really down tuned guitars, and a third that uses the amp model for everything from clean through saturated lead. The problem I'm realizing is that I can't decide whether to splurge on an expression pedal to toss a wah block into the front of each patch or whether I should use my tried and true JC95 Crybaby. More options overload.

I bought the Mission expression pedal for my Kemper. It has a switch on it. I have that set up to turn on the wah block. When the wah block is off, the pedal works as a volume pedal. When in the heel down position it turns on the tuner. After I got my FM9, I set the pedal up the same way on that unit using the same pedal jacks that I used on the Kemper. Now I use that pedal with both units using pedal jacks one and two. I like having it there with multiple functions.
 
After tinkering some more last night, I have three patches that are "MY" tone. One that's my clean, crunch, heavy crunch and lead tone, a duplicate, but with everything set up for a brighter overall tone for really down tuned guitars, and a third that uses the amp model for everything from clean through saturated lead. The problem I'm realizing is that I can't decide whether to splurge on an expression pedal to toss a wah block into the front of each patch or whether I should use my tried and true JC95 Crybaby. More options overload.

I bought the Mission expression pedal for my Kemper. It has a switch on it. I have that set up to turn on the wah block. When the wah block is off, the pedal works as a volume pedal. When in the heel down position it turns on the tuner. After I got my FM9, I set the pedal up the same way on that unit using the same pedal jacks that I used on the Kemper. Now I use that pedal with both units using pedal jacks one and two. I like having it there with multiple functions.

The Mission pedal is good because of the ON/OFF switch. You'd need to refer to either the manual or the Forum to answer how to set it up; my EV-1 has fewer bells and whistles than the Mission, but it serves my needs.

You could do a FAS EV-1, or EV-2 for a smaller footprint. The EV series works well with Fractal devices and can be set up within the wah or volume/pan blocks. There is a lot that an expression pedal can do (in either the FM9 or Axe III, run 2 amps simultaneously and blend between the two, for example).

You don't need to set up anything universally as you might expect with a standard wah or volume pedal. You would need to run it as part of an FX loop, or before your guitar cable insert. An expression pedal, though, can be a very useful tool, beyond wah, volume, pitch shift, etc.

The editing software makes this all possible if you know how. The Fractal Forum, the manual, and YT are good info sources that will help reduce the guesswork you might encounter while learning.
 
I have now had my Axe FXIII for just over a month now, and am blown away at what it can do! But not so blown away that it intimidates me!! Being someone who has never owned an effects pedal (other than the Boss VE-8 which is a singer/songwriter pedal) the presets for me are great!!! I did need to spend about 8 hours going through the 500 or so included presets, and found 30 or so that were great starting points for sounds I would want to use for various projects/styles (put all in a spreadsheet). From there, I started tweaking them (mostly EQ adjustments for my guitars) and have really been using only one preset (Ruby Rocket Growl) that I have become quite enamored with for the stuff I have been doing. I have not even started looking into playing with the IR cabs, nor have I started swapping the tubes on the amps (a fairly new feature for the FXIII from what I understand) but already have tones that are way beyond anything I could build from scratch without months or years of purchases and experimentation, in part due to my ignorance on that topic. That said, should I be learning to drive in a Ferrari? Whether I should or not, it sure is fun! I know part of my easy adoption is due to me having been a programmer for 30+ years, along with my favorite toy as a child being the Radio Shack 101 Electronics kit (my favorite book as a child was the Physicians Desk Reference - go figure)! I LOVE having all the options and although I have only scratched the surface, I will be deep diving when I have the time available (right now, every free moment is spent playing rather than finding those perfect tones)! Regardless of whether you choose to go amp modeler or not, I think they are the future as the sounds of tube amps and effects pedals will be indiscernibly produced and there are hundreds of presets that can satisfy many players with only minor tweaks. Another very cool feature of the Fractal systems (FXIII, FM9 and FM3) are constant updates, free of charge, that make the product even better and more accurate! That's my 1.5 cents at this time!
 
I have now had my Axe FXIII for just over a month now, and am blown away at what it can do! But not so blown away that it intimidates me!! Being someone who has never owned an effects pedal (other than the Boss VE-8 which is a singer/songwriter pedal) the presets for me are great!!! I did need to spend about 8 hours going through the 500 or so included presets, and found 30 or so that were great starting points for sounds I would want to use for various projects/styles (put all in a spreadsheet). From there, I started tweaking them (mostly EQ adjustments for my guitars) and have really been using only one preset (Ruby Rocket Growl) that I have become quite enamored with for the stuff I have been doing. I have not even started looking into playing with the IR cabs, nor have I started swapping the tubes on the amps (a fairly new feature for the FXIII from what I understand) but already have tones that are way beyond anything I could build from scratch without months or years of purchases and experimentation, in part due to my ignorance on that topic. That said, should I be learning to drive in a Ferrari? Whether I should or not, it sure is fun! I know part of my easy adoption is due to me having been a programmer for 30+ years, along with my favorite toy as a child being the Radio Shack 101 Electronics kit (my favorite book as a child was the Physicians Desk Reference - go figure)! I LOVE having all the options and although I have only scratched the surface, I will be deep diving when I have the time available (right now, every free moment is spent playing rather than finding those perfect tones)! Regardless of whether you choose to go amp modeler or not, I think they are the future as the sounds of tube amps and effects pedals will be indiscernibly produced and there are hundreds of presets that can satisfy many players with only minor tweaks. Another very cool feature of the Fractal systems (FXIII, FM9 and FM3) are constant updates, free of charge, that make the product even better and more accurate! That's my 1.5 cents at this time!
I just recently upgraded to a HeadRush unit. The ease of use is mind blowing. And the sounds sound easily as good as any of the competition. WAAAAYYYYYY more stuff than I will ever have a use for. But it is nice to have it all in there. I am still playing it through my Fender (some real tubes), but I have modeled a fender amp and cab and it sounds pretty close just playing through a pair of monitors. Iwill take it to church and see how it sounds direct through the PA system in comparison to the HD500X that I was using before (but without actually modeling and amp with it...just used the effects). Fun stuff to play with.
 
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