Your opinion…

Do you think learning scales and modes is beneficial or overrated?

  • Beneficial

    Votes: 34 89.5%
  • Overrated

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Huh???

    Votes: 4 10.5%

  • Total voters
    38
As in all things in life, knowing more is always useful, and knowing less is rarely useful. Knowing more gives you vocabulary and tools to use in music creation.

But it's really hard to make rules that work for everyone.

Miusical knowledge expressed mechanically is inartistic. It needs to be tempered by taste, artistic skill, and creativity. That's the difference-maker once a certain level of proficiency is reached.

I'm not sure that can be taught.

This might be why people often don't care for modal jazz. It can sound formulaic In many cases, running the scales over the changes, often with great skill and speed. However, only the really good players take the next step and create interesting original melodies using their skill sets.

So, it's great and wonderful to understand music theory, and to develop skills in scales and modes. But that's merely a starting point. You've still got the challenge of creating music from it without being a mechanic and finger-gymnast.

And there are wonderful artists who you don't hear playing modes and scales, like Neil Young, the quintessence of the guy who only plays one note, but it's the right note.

Just because a person can read and write the King's English properly doesn't mean they're a great author. Et cetera. If learning modes and scales works for, and appeals you, learn them, they can only help. They help me most in my orchestral writing.
 
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They are definitely useful. You have to know the rules so you can bend or break them accordingly.

I played for a good number of years. I played in bands and did okay with it. I never fully understood what I was doing and had difficulty improvising a solo on the spot because of that. I went to a friend of mine that is a guitar teacher and told him that I knew a bunch of theory but didn't know how it all fit together so I wanted to take some lessons to get my head around the theory and how to apply it. He said that this was going to be a fun journey for both of us because he usually has to sneak the theory in on people so they don't realize they are learning it and had never had a student that wanted to focus specifically on that. He loves talking about exactly what I went to him for. My eyes were opened more and more the longer I was with him. I loved learning how it all fit together and what the actual rules of it all are. It made things that I knew how to do make sense to me. After spending about a year and a half with him he told me I knew everything he knew. I was able to get up with bands and make my way through songs I had never played before and improvise solos on the spot. It really took my playing to the level above the next level for me. I still like to dig back into the theory occasionally as a reminder. It usually sparks ideas and gets me to play with something I haven't touched in a long time.
 
All my training was in classical guitar and viola / violin so practicing scales was mandatory just to be physically mediocre.
These days after 56 years of playing , I still practice a few hours a day , scales and then improv. The scales help limber the old fingers up and get them in the groove.
 
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I believe the answer to this question is based upon what it is you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to compose original work, knowing the theory is of course important, but the scales may or may not be important depending on what type of stuff you want to compose. As Les mentioned, Neil Young didn't have to use scales to make memorable work, nor did Bob Dylan. There is plenty of very simple Beatles work that does not need any scales practice to play and make entertaining. So if you are wanting to play like EVH (and expand upon his work if that is possible), you should probably learn/practice scales, but if you just want to duplicate what EVH plays, you should specifically learn what EVH plays and practice that rather than the scales he built his work around. Yes, understanding how it was built may help you build upon it, but if you are not looking to change it and want to nail it note for note, I think the scales could just get in your way.

I built a spreadsheet (feel free to use, cite ways to improve, point out mistakes, etc. - still a work in progress) starting in 2002 that has quite a few scales and a bit of theory on it. Unfortunately, I have spent more time building it than I have spent using it as a tool to practice what is in it. I did just a few weeks ago find a blues pattern in my spreadsheet that I really like, and I have been messing around with that in noodling and have even incorporated it as a solo a couple of times when practicing. I am focused on composing my own music for the most part, so I have been trying to work on this stuff lately to make my pieces more interesting than the cowboy chord stuff I usually write. "One chord is fine. Two chords are pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz." - Lou Reed! That is from the man whose band got people to start more bands than they sold records by some peoples measures (at least that is the lore)! Although I love Lou and all he did, I am feeling drawn to the more than 3 chord options at this point (though I will never abandon or discredit the work that is created in even the simplest of format).

Best of luck Deepender, but whatever you do, play more!!!!
 
Music is a lifelong, never ending, ever expanding endeavor. You will never know everything nor master it. There will always be something else. That's the beauty and frustration of it. I like to learn theory and find it necessary since I tend to go a lot by ear.
 
I know one scale, but I’m comfortable starting anywhere on it. To me a minor scale is just starting/ending in a different place.

The names they give all the other starting points are just blah-blah to me. I appreciate the different modes, and drift through them frequently while playing, but knowing the names has zero impact on my playing, or appreciation of their use.

I do play abnormal scales from time to time. For example, some time ago I started picking 5 random notes to see if I could find a way to make a bootleg pentatonic sound good. Most of the time I could. As long as I could visualize the octaves up and down from each note, I could stay with my scale of the moment.
 
Meh. I was more creative before I knew all the rules. Like Les said, it's about being able to move past the rules and create. I knew what sounded cool, and I was a good player. I reached a plateau and wanted to pass it. Learned keys, modes, and scales. Now I find myself being controlled by the key signature and not relying as much on my ear.

My own fault. I need to break that crutch!!
 
Certainly beneficial. Not really needed at first. I've been teaching guitar to kids for a number of years now. I start them out learning to play the songs they want to play. This keeps their interest. If they progress to the point where they need to know about scales and modes etc. in order to get to the next step, then I start to teach it. By that time it's not boring. They want to learn it because they know they it will help them understand more. Until then, I don't think it's needed.
 
A quote from long ago, attributed to me although I don't recall actually saying it, is "Don't tell me what key it's in, just play!" and as a general rule of thumb, I live by this to this day. Admittedly, my working knowledge of theory is written in pencil and has been erased and re-written several times over in the last 35 years. I'm glad I know what I know, and continue to add tidbits as I meander through life. But scales and modes remain crippling to me when I am actually playing. The worst thing I can do for my playing (in the moment) is to think about it and let right/wrong creep in. Train wreck coming! To paraphrase someone else, I want to get to where "it" is playing, not me. Thinking about rules often finds me at odds with them, ignoring them finds me free of them.

That said, compositionally, it is quite useful to be able to draw on those basics especially when I'm struggling to find that next chord to convey a feeling. I definitely have gotten better about keeping a foot in both worlds, but I'm a better player when I just trust the feel. If I could go back to being 15 years old though, I would like to embrace the theory side of things a bit more than I did then. Old dog, new tricks and all that. My $0.02
 
I believe the answer to this question is based upon what it is you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to compose original work, knowing the theory is of course important, but the scales may or may not be important depending on what type of stuff you want to compose. As Les mentioned, Neil Young didn't have to use scales to make memorable work, nor did Bob Dylan. There is plenty of very simple Beatles work that does not need any scales practice to play and make entertaining. So if you are wanting to play like EVH (and expand upon his work if that is possible), you should probably learn/practice scales, but if you just want to duplicate what EVH plays, you should specifically learn what EVH plays and practice that rather than the scales he built his work around. Yes, understanding how it was built may help you build upon it, but if you are not looking to change it and want to nail it note for note, I think the scales could just get in your way.

I built a spreadsheet (feel free to use, cite ways to improve, point out mistakes, etc. - still a work in progress) starting in 2002 that has quite a few scales and a bit of theory on it. Unfortunately, I have spent more time building it than I have spent using it as a tool to practice what is in it. I did just a few weeks ago find a blues pattern in my spreadsheet that I really like, and I have been messing around with that in noodling and have even incorporated it as a solo a couple of times when practicing. I am focused on composing my own music for the most part, so I have been trying to work on this stuff lately to make my pieces more interesting than the cowboy chord stuff I usually write. "One chord is fine. Two chords are pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz." - Lou Reed! That is from the man whose band got people to start more bands than they sold records by some peoples measures (at least that is the lore)! Although I love Lou and all he did, I am feeling drawn to the more than 3 chord options at this point (though I will never abandon or discredit the work that is created in even the simplest of format).

Best of luck Deepender, but whatever you do, play more!!!!
Very impressive.
 
I'm not in the same league as most players here, but I do believe that you can't build a decent house without a foundation. 35 years of teaching martial arts has reinforced that in me. While it's true that you can be sloppy and sound good if the feels are real, accuracy is still a very good thing. If it's good enough for a guitar icon like Les Paul, it's pretty much gospel by me.
 
The guitar is a VERY easy instrument to learn- at least the basics and if all you wanna do is strum some chords for a sing-along, then be happy! But it's also one of the hardest to absolutely master.
If you are composing- it sure helps to understand scales, modes and chord progressions. I play in a classic rock cover band and also play for a church every other week- the church music can be VERY challenging- lots of Eb6, Am9, B major7 add9, Cm7add2, etc. ( a lot of this is a derivative of all of the songs being charted by a piano player! ) Knowing how to put chords together and where each note is on each string helps a ton!
In the classic rock band, I am the only guitarist- we have a keys, bassist, drummer and singer as well but I cover a ton of leads and chords and knowing where to play chords on the neck in multiple positions, makes it MUCH easier to transition from a lead into the rhythm track. We play some complex stuff too- Van Halen (Jump and Panama), Ozzy (Crazy train) Prince (Let's go crazy), Reeling in the years, Sultans of swing, Red Barchetta- just to name a few- and we play them EXACTLY as written. I enjoy knowing my way around the neck!
 
Like many who began with listening to LPs and cassettes, we usually tried to hear what was being played, but didn't know what mode or scale was implemented. In time, as we did our due diligence and listened our forefathers music (most musicians trace current music back to jazz, blues, Black gospel and spirituals, etc) and understand the history of the music, rather than try understand the theory behind it. Most every musicologist has a basic knowledge of the history.

Musicians, however, who practice regularly, who wish to improve on basic knowledge, typically benefit from understanding modes and scales, the vocabulary of music. Myself included, there are many of us who have never moved beyond basic pentatonic, or minor pentatonic scales, because our focus as blues guitarists didn't require much more.

However, as music has become vastly more complex, what with detuning and altered tunings, there is a greater need to learn modes and scales, simply because more talented guitarists will only understand you if you speak their language, the language of music. For example, the flatted 3rd or 5th, how would you like me to play over the turnaround, should we try this with a syncopated feel, etc...?

That being said, my knowledge of modes and scales is next to nil, compared to my nephew and niece's knowledge. Both of these studied jazz and voice in college, and one hopes to teach secondary school students in jazz studies soon. I wish them well.

As for me, I am a student for life regards music, simply because my share in all of this requires general improvement. The way to that is first to listen to various modes and scales as they're sounded out to you, so your ear can recognize when one mode or scale is being used. There used to be a website that did just that, but I've forgotten what that site was.

Then, learn the note vocabulary so you know when a flatted whatever resolves to a pleasing-sounding major or dominant. Part of modes and scales is being able to hear the changes in modes or scales, and knowing when you use each scale corresponding to the chord changes. This is all basic thought, but actually applying what you learn leads to mastering your instrument.

Notwithstanding, I have yet to learn what is needed so I can apply my knowledge. Like many, I'm still noodling with pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales while tossing in some jazz notes for effect. Doesn't make for "good music" by any means, but it help me keep what pitiful chops I already possess viable. This student of life has much more to learn, but often doesn't practice enough what he needs to learn.
 
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Like many who began with listening to LPs and cassettes, we usually tried to hear what was being played, but didn't know what mode or scale was implemented. In time, as we did our due diligence and listened our forefathers music (most musicians trace current music back to jazz, blues, Black gospel and spirituals, etc) and understand the history of the music, rather than try understand the theory behind it. Most every musicologist has a basic knowledge of the history.

Musicians, however, who practice regularly, who wish to improve on basic knowledge, typically benefit from understanding modes and scales, the vocabulary of music. Myself included, there are many of us who have never moved beyond basic pentatonic, or minor pentatonic scales, because our focus as blues guitarists didn't require much more.

However, as music has become vastly more complex, what with detuning and altered tunings, there is a greater need to learn modes and scales, simply because more talented guitarists will only understand you if you speak their language, the language of music. For example, the flatted 3rd or 5th, how would you like me to play over the turnaround, should we try this with a syncopated feel, etc...?

That being said, my knowledge of modes and scales is next to nil, compared to my nephew and niece's knowledge. Both of these studied jazz and voice in college, and one hopes to teach secondary school students in jazz studies soon. I wish them well.

As for me, I am a student for life regards music, simply because my share in all of this requires general improvement. The way to that is first to listen to various modes and scales as they're sounded out to you, so your ear can recognize when one mode or scale is being used. There used to be a website that did just that, but I've forgotten what that site was.

Then, learn the note vocabulary so you know when a flatted whatever resolves to a pleasing-sounding major or dominant. Part of modes and scales is being able to hear the changes in modes or scales, and knowing when you use each scale corresponding to the chord changes. This is all basic thought, but actually applying what you learn leads to mastering your instrument.

Notwithstanding, I have yet to learn what is needed so I can apply my knowledge. Like many, I'm still noodling with pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales while tossing in some jazz notes for effect. Doesn't make for "good music" by any means, but it help me keep what pitiful chops I already possess viable. This student of life has much more to learn, but often doesn't practice enough what he needs to learn.
Humility and honesty.
I like that.
 
Like many who began with listening to LPs and cassettes, we usually tried to hear what was being played, but didn't know what mode or scale was implemented. In time, as we did our due diligence and listened our forefathers music (most musicians trace current music back to jazz, blues, Black gospel and spirituals, etc) and understand the history of the music, rather than try understand the theory behind it. Most every musicologist has a basic knowledge of the history.

Musicians, however, who practice regularly, who wish to improve on basic knowledge, typically benefit from understanding modes and scales, the vocabulary of music. Myself included, there are many of us who have never moved beyond basic pentatonic, or minor pentatonic scales, because our focus as blues guitarists didn't require much more.

However, as music has become vastly more complex, what with detuning and altered tunings, there is a greater need to learn modes and scales, simply because more talented guitarists will only understand you if you speak their language, the language of music. For example, the flatted 3rd or 5th, how would you like me to play over the turnaround, should we try this with a syncopated feel, etc...?

That being said, my knowledge of modes and scales is next to nil, compared to my nephew and niece's knowledge. Both of these studied jazz and voice in college, and one hopes to teach secondary school students in jazz studies soon. I wish them well.

As for me, I am a student for life regards music, simply because my share in all of this requires general improvement. The way to that is first to listen to various modes and scales as they're sounded out to you, so your ear can recognize when one mode or scale is being used. There used to be a website that did just that, but I've forgotten what that site was.

Then, learn the note vocabulary so you know when a flatted whatever resolves to a pleasing-sounding major or dominant. Part of modes and scales is being able to hear the changes in modes or scales, and knowing when you use each scale corresponding to the chord changes. This is all basic thought, but actually applying what you learn leads to mastering your instrument.

Notwithstanding, I have yet to learn what is needed so I can apply my knowledge. Like many, I'm still noodling with pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales while tossing in some jazz notes for effect. Doesn't make for "good music" by any means, but it help me keep what pitiful chops I already possess viable. This student of life has much more to learn, but often doesn't practice enough what he needs to learn.
Very astute observation and well said. My voice background helps me recognize (if not immediately differentiate) different modes, boxes and variations, but my piano and horn based brain often refuses to adapt quickly to changes and shifts. Keys are much more absolute in comparison so it does give me fits at times. I'm getting better, but sure as H.E double hockey sticks ain't getting any younger. Practice is paramount for this aged adolescent I'm afraid.
 
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