jxe
babe en der wood
He’s four, and not allowed to use string cutters.
don’t be persnickety, let him do it his way for a while.
He’s four, and not allowed to use string cutters.
that is why I keep a supply of bamboo skewers in my guitar tool kit. One quick poke from the top side and that ball drops right out.I hate when the ball end of the string gets stuck in the block! Never an issue with MannMade or cores.
Of course there are differences, but I’m talking about tangible ones vs intangible ones.
I guess I haven’t managed to explain myself very well since lots of people seem to be misunderstanding what I’m saying and getting all defensive (which I kinda expected to be fair).
This is not a question of whose opinion is right. This is about having a preference for something when there’s no tangible reason for it.
For instance, somebody mentioned tuning pegs, which is a great example. The trem is another. I suggest that most people wouldn’t be able to tell a US spec trem from a molded import trem in a blind test, however some people will insist on having a US version because the perception is that it’s ‘better’. That, is simply the power of suggestion. Also, a tuner pretty much works or it doesn’t, so what makes one ‘better’ or worth more money? Subjectively, looks, as the Korean ones look crap and the core ones look great, but functionally? There’s not a lot in it, if anything.
There are definite and obvious differences between US and core, but as for what’s better in real terms isn’t quite as definite.
I hate when the ball end of the string gets stuck in the block! Never an issue with MannMade or cores.
You say this is about having a preferance for something without tangible reason...
There are very tangible differences for SOME not ALL people. In a blind test I could get handed the SE guitar and know immediately from a core (True story, Blind test confirmed, fretboard feel so much flatter to me that i can tell immediately). Also I could play a certain 7 sec test riff and I'd also know because likely my pick will be hanging up slightly and I'd have to compensate. Then use the trem...and then I'd know again just by feel not factoring tuning stability. This is all before even plugging in. However not everyone is me....nor does everyone play in the same style or have the same demands.
So i guess my point is there are VERY Tangible differences for me, however not for everyone...AND it's harder to have tangible differences depending on the Player themselves (techniques/genre/ect.). I have a to put a noticeable amount more effort to play an SE as accurately as I demand..and that is before you even get to the tuning/pickup/ect. situations. I've owned many SEs and tried over and over to get them where i wanted...I really only found my luck with the old SE single cut. That probably has more to do with my playing style, my extensive use of hard 1.4mm Jazz3 style picks, and string busting strumming (which has never happened to me on a core PRS now that i think about it).
To make matters worse...there is a VERY tangible difference between my private stock guitar and the rest of my flock....totally effortless playing...total responsiveness...and all with the same pickups as my other PRS. How? Well its the sum of all the parts.
I know so many great players happy with their SE, I've set up a lot of their guitars and made them play better the best I could. I get excited when I get to work on SEs, and SE talk is usually something I'm very interested in...I like to pick them up and look for gems..when I find one I report it to other musicians I know (this was happening all the time pre-covid).
All in all if you for yourself do not find "Tangible Value" in the core model..I mean..really that should be a good thing! Why? That means you don't have our disease...and you could load up on SEs at the bargain prices they are!
What makes an SE a bargain?
If a guitar makes you so satisfied and you do not want for anything more....AND it's at an SE price....That my friend is a bargain!!
Of course there are differences, but I’m talking about tangible ones vs intangible ones.
No no, please don’t misunderstand, of course there are some things regarding the core models that are absolutely tangible, and as you rightly say, what those things are (apart from the obvious) will depend largely on the player.
I’ve seen people change components before even playing the guitar, such is their belief that either part of it is of low quality, or that there’s just something ‘better’ (and then go on to play the same crap in the same way lol).
If the tuners hold their tune better, obviously, you can hear the difference. This is why so many SE players retrofit other tuning machines.
And here is one area that is going to be personal.
You may not hear much (if any) difference swapping a tuner over but another person can. That is a Tangible difference - let alone any other potential benefits to the player it may offer (like quicker string changes). Other things may not be evident initially but over time, you notice a difference - like the amount of time your fret's last for example because Core uses a much harder fret wire or how much movement it has over a year due to environmental conditions.
Maybe you can't hear a difference between say multiple piece Philippine Mahogany over a solid Honduran Mahogany body or whether your multi-piece SE maple with scarf neck vs the core single piece Mahogany neck, but that doesn't mean they aren't tangible differences to 'somebody'. Whether it makes enough of a difference for that person to want to spend more on a core or not is still a personal choice.
The difference between an SE and Core is tangible in virtually every area. Its not because 1 happens to be made in Asia, its because one is built to a much smaller budget, using cheaper materials and parts as well as cheaper labour too. Granted a veneer over a maple cap itself may not make much difference, but the thickness of the maple certainly will and its a lot thicker in the middle.
I could go on and on listing the differences and even if each only makes a tiny difference, they all add up. I do acknowledge that the difference isn't as great as the Pricing seems to indicate, you are not getting 4x the guitar for 4x the cost, but you are getting a 'better' guitar and it would be 'better' regardless of whether it was made in the US, EU or any Asian country. For some people, that difference is worth it and for others, having 80% of the guitar for just 25% of the cost is good enough.
If the SE was made exactly the same in the US, it would cost a lot more but is still 'compromising' on the raw materials. Its not where its made, its the principal behind the build - these compromises are made so that the guitar can sell for $500-$1k. Thhose changes would affect the price wherever the guitar is made comparatively. Yes it would probably cost 2x as much if made in the US to the exact same specs so does give great value for money but its like a Dacia Sandero can be better value for money than a BMW equivalent, but the BMW equivalent is a much better vehicle with better materials used in its construction. That doesn't mean the Dacia can't get you from A to B and back again. For someone, the Dacia is more than adequate and does the 'same' job as the BMW - in that it transports them around but for another, the differences the BMW offer makes that journey more enjoyable for whatever reason.
No one here is saying the SE's are BAD just because some compromises had to be made to make a guitar for that price, in fact everyone I have seen say they are fantastic guitars for the money. What people are saying is that the core is better and in their eyes, it was worth paying the extra for. Its not like they didn't have the choice of 'other' US made options like the S2 or CE models. What they are saying is those 'tangible' differences are worth paying the difference in their personal situation. Your situation is obviously different and in your case, the SE is more than good enough for your needs. Its got nothing to do with where these instruments are made, its down to whether that difference is 'enough' for them to warrant the extra outlay.
This is a separate thing to 'where' something is made. I'd probably buy a Core if PRS relocated to China over an SE made in the US too because the Core uses higher quality materials and is tangibly 'better' in my opinion - again, its all to do with the quality of materials and parts, the time and care taken, the QC etc and NOT where those materials and Parts are assembled.
I’ve seen people change components before even playing the guitar, such is their belief that either part of it is of low quality, or that there’s just something ‘better’ (and then go on to play the same crap in the same way lol).
I don’t really care if you disagree with me mate, it’s a discussion forum not some kind of will-breaking contest!
But anyway, tuners not working properly is a reason to change them out on any guitar, even one made in America. But even when they do hold tune people still change them out. Do you see?
You may not hear much (if any) difference swapping a tuner over but another person can. That is a Tangible difference.
I highly doubt that. It’d be like somebody saying they can tell (by the sound) whether the ferrules in the back of a tele are made of brass or steel.
Good post though.
I must admit, that does bug me too. You do see it often with people buying SE's and even S2's, asking what pickups they ought to buy before they have even bought the guitar. I always think its better to try them first, tweak your amp/pedal settings and if its still not working for you after a period of time, look for pups that are more to your preference based on what you think the 'S' pups are not delivering. For example, if you find them a bit muddy, then maybe look for something with a bit more clarity, think they are not hot enough, look for something hotter - but you don't know until you have a baseline...
So I do agree that in some cases, people are too quick to dismiss something based on where its made.
Bob,
If I can step in for a second, I think Les was saying that PRS has several separate kinds of tuners that they put on their instruments, at various price points. The "cheaper" tuners go on the entry level guitars. The locking tuners typically are designed to hold their tune better than the cheaper tuners.
What we each may prefer is a tuner that works properly, and one that doesn't work well might need swapping out. I think Les was saying that core or PS guitars that typically have higher quality components to HIM, sound and feel better.
We each may have our own levels of comfort, but truthfully, neither touting core nor imported is right or wrong. Some of us are just stating we prefer higher quality part and build quality.
Well said. This thread was not questioning national origin or the people who make it. This thread was asking why your preferred core or imported. Price point aside, some overseas production and labor costs are cheaper. Perhaps it's because PRS originated in the States that we happily pay for core instruments. Had PRS originally been a foreign business, who knows what form of attention to detail might we have seen?
Its not about where something is made in my case. I live in the UK and every guitar I own is imported even if they are all made in the US. If I wanted a back-up for example that's gonna sit in the rack and only come out if my 'main' guitar is having work done, then it may be difficult to justify core money. Every purchase decision is unique - I am in different situation each time - different budget, different needs/wants, different reason to buy, different 'gear' at home, different ability etc. When I bought my last PRS for example, I had 6 others, different budget, different gear at home, different skill level etc. Had that been for a 7-string, I wouldn't have spent that much at all even though the 'situation' was virtually the same because I really don't know if I would take to that extra string. So even in the same situation, for one instrument, I would pay 'core' money but would look for a much cheaper 'Asian' made alternative for the another.
In my mind, it makes much more sense to assess the situation at the time. I don't have a 'hard and fast' rule that I only buy Core PRS guitars - even though that's what I own now. If I was going out of my comfort zone, buying something that may only get used occasionally etc its much more difficult for me to justify spending $4k+ on a guitar - not to say that a few years down the line I wouldn't upgrade, but when that time came, I would reassess my situation and try to make the right one for me - not for anyone else or to score bragging rights. If an SE happens to be the right instrument at that time, so be it!