Will tube amps ever become obsolete?

[CandidPicker]

Quit giving away the secrets, Dave. It’s tough to be a heretic when the truth is being revealed constantly!

Dave is correct, though the amp's design is what breathes life into the speaker/cab. Gotta ask, though, how many of us can do with a 1x12, or 2x12? Is a 4x12 necessary to provide the feel of a powerful amp? Your thoughts?

 

[Alnus Rubra]

Well...$HIT!!! I went from my Roland JC-77 to a bunch of really nice Tube amps...
But than again, I still use a flip phone...and CDs...and toilet paper...


Just kiddin' about the flip phone...


and TP...

Giggle.

Bill the Bidet!

 

[Aahzz]

I think we're going to reach the point where it's no longer economically feasible to continue to manufacture tubes, and as such the tube amps will become very much a niche item and guitarists will hoard JJ tubes like they sometimes hoard vintage NOS tubes now. They'll not be obsolete, but they'll be far less common.

The Helix was my personal tipping point and I no longer own any tube amps - I have a Helix LT and a Pod Go, and absolutely adore them. I don't sit there and try to precisely match any existing tube amps and grumble at the differences, I dial in a tone I like and then I play, and am happy. For that matter, the amp model I use most, the Litigator, isn't modeled from an existing tube amp, it's completely a Line 6 creation of which no tube version has been made - or, according to the designer of said model, *could* be made. It sounds good, it feels good, and it makes me happy - and my bandmates and others have complimented my tone. On top of that, it's also ridiculously easy to pack up and go with this rig.

For me, tube amps are already obsolete. Others will feel differently, and that's all good.

 

[Deli6505]

A year ago, you couldn't convince me to go back to tubes full time as I was still in my extended honeymoon phase with my Kemper, but as time went on and after playing it live, I really was missing the overall feel and air being pushed through a cabinet so I started gigging more and more with my MT15 and whammo, I was right back on Team Valve. I also didn't like the way that all the profiles started sounding the same so long story short, I ended up selling my Kemper. I think that if I initially went with an unpowered Kemper into a proper tube power amp instead of the PowerRack version, I would probably have held on a little longer but overall, I miss the convenience of the Kemper but definitely don't miss missing the trouser flappage.

 

[CVS]

I have had a Roland Blues Cube Artist amp for about 4 years now. It is my daily practice amp as well as my gig amp. It gets a decent clean sound and takes to pedals well. To this point, it has been maintenance free. I play through the clean channel on the edge of breakup. I also have a few tube amps, which I use only on "special occasions" - its mood thing. These amps require maintenance. I have yet to play a Fender Tone Master but hope to do so soon. SS / digital technology will only continue to improve.

I am open to a tubeless amp world

 

[Nice F Holes]

You may be correct, yet take it with a grain of salt that digital I/O's and A/D/A converters compromise tone simply because converting analog to digital and back again causes loss of tone quality. True analog devices are for the most part unhindered regards carrying signal or producing sound waves.

What about digital effects? These, too, have A/D/A converters built in, but because many choose buffered bypass, some of the lost signal tone is recovered. What actually is occurring? Is guitar signal "strengthened", as some might perceive, or are certain tone frequencies being restored?

My point is, digital devices may have advantages regards compact size and weight constraints. Yet regards how they sound may be less lifelike and, as some have said, "more digital." Tubes, by default and definition, have a warmer tone quality because they are analog.

My feeling is as the bit resolution quality of digital devices increases over time, so will the tone quality of digital devices. The integral frequency curve will be smoother in relationship so as to improve tone and sound quality.

P.S. My previous paragraph may be in error. Hopefully, what I meant to say was the quality of tone and sound would improve because of the increased bit resolution. I realize what I've written "doesn't read well." Take it with a grain of salt that they're words to be taken at face value, not with some deeper meaning.

I don't disagree at all. Digital processing has it's place and that place is hugely growing. I just think that as long as there are people who want the absolute best in sound quality and dynamic response, tubes will remain relevant.

I feel like it's similar to guitars: will Private Stock or Artist Series guitars become obsolete? Even with the improvements we're seeing to the SE guitars? I don't think so. An SE is plenty good for recording, live playing, even inspiring bedroom playing. But Core guitars have a little more magic. To most people, especially in the audience, there's not much of a tonal or musical difference between an SE and a Core. I notice a difference when I play core guitars in the shop, and I still want one despite having an SE. Just like I still want my tube amp, despite having about as good of a digital signal chain as one could expect. I even a boutique all-tube pre into a high end digital cab sim but isn't the same as an all tube amp, with natural tube breakup and compression, and tube-driven spring reverb. For the sake of this thread I won't mention latency

Even if your message "doesn't read well", seeing your name at the front of it is a pretty good indicator of the intent

 

[Boogie]

Dave is correct, though the amp's design is what breathes life into the speaker/cab. Gotta ask, though, how many of us can do with a 1x12, or 2x12? Is a 4x12 necessary to provide the feel of a powerful amp? Your thoughts?

A 4x12 is just another option, sounding uniquely based upon the speaker selection and cab design. But since I’ve never owned a truck to haul gear, I opted for a pair of vertical 2x12s. I’d defy anyone in their presence to say they don’t convey the power of my amps.

case in point...

So, to answer your question, no, a 2x12 can bring the beef. With that said, there’s something special in a 1960a/b w/ old Greenbacks that, when matched with an old Plexi, makes magic.

I might add, I’ve ripped off heads in the front row with a 1x12 before. You just have to want it.

 

[Boogie]

I might add, lifting the 1x12 off the ground reduced the beheading substantially. We were still quite loud.

 

[CandidPicker]

I feel like it's similar to guitars: will Private Stock or Artist Series guitars become obsolete? Even with the improvements we're seeing to the SE guitars? I don't think so. An SE is plenty good for recording, live playing, even inspiring bedroom playing. But Core guitars have a little more magic. To most people, especially in the audience, there's not much of a tonal or musical difference between an SE and a Core. I notice a difference when I play core guitars in the shop, and I still want one despite having an SE. Just like I still want my tube amp, despite having about as good of a digital signal chain as one could expect. I even a boutique all-tube pre into a high end digital cab sim but isn't the same as an all tube amp, with natural tube breakup and compression, and tube-driven spring reverb. For the sake of this thread I won't mention latency

Even if your message "doesn't read well", seeing your name at the front of it is a pretty good indicator of the intent

Thanks for your response. As technology continues to change and grow, I think as processor speeds and bit resolutions improve in quality, so we will also more clearly see the benefits of this. Since our phones are good indicators of how fast technology is improving, and that other digital devices will eventually adopt the chipsets of growing technology, it's likely that the tone of digital devices, including sound amplification and audio quality will also improve. It has to. As the integral process utilizes smaller increments, audio and sound quality will also improve.

Regards "not reading well," my education has taught me that folks read and hear differently, essentially, perceive things differently. Depending on your tolerance and own education, sometimes words can sound intimidating when in fact they are not meant to. All that I need say is if one can conquer their fear of what is said, and listening more intently to how it is said (which is less likely to occur online and why people take offense more readily because they can't hear how things are being said), then it still makes good sense to let folks know of the manner in which the material was written, so there is less chance of misunderstandings which can cause conflict.

Thanks for letting me know that my screen name carries some merit. (That's what you meant, yes? )

A 4x12 is just another option, sounding uniquely based upon the speaker selection and cab design. But since I’ve never owned a truck to haul gear, I opted for a pair of vertical 2x12s. I’d defy anyone in their presence to say they don’t convey the power of my amps.

case in point...

So, to answer your question, no, a 2x12 can bring the beef. With that said, there’s something special in a 1960a/b w/ old Greenbacks that, when matched with an old Plexi, makes magic.

I might add, I’ve ripped off heads in the front row with a 1x12 before. You just have to want it.

I just thought to add that I've dialed in a '67 Plexi Variac-type amp model with a Choptones 4x12 Plexxi IR, and it does EVH quite well. I've also a Bogner Blue amp model with a Choptones 1x12 Tone Imperial IR, that I use for my SMOOTH rig, and am happy with my stereo FRFR108s.

Perhaps it won't make your ears ring after listening to my setlist, yet remember I'm currently utilizing my gear for home practice that will translate well to live use if either or both FRFRs are connected via line out to a mixer/PA. That satisfies both my need for volume and feel. I may not need to feel the sheer volume of music in my chest, though for the size and volume of the venue we play, it's enough to do the job well.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I might add, I’ve ripped off heads in the front row with a 1x12 before. You just have to want it.

Quote of the week, right there.

 

[Herr Squid]

I think we're going to reach the point where it's no longer economically feasible to continue to manufacture tubes, and as such the tube amps will become very much a niche item and guitarists will hoard JJ tubes like they sometimes hoard vintage NOS tubes now. They'll not be obsolete, but they'll be far less common.

I'll not argue with any of that, but will note that the Death of Tubes has been just around the corner since the 90s, which is going on 30 years now.

(Kinda like fusion power, which has been 7 years away ever since people first dreamed it up.)

 

[Herr Squid]

So much of it is in the speaker/cab.

This and also "the power behind it" is the answer right here. Those who are addicted to the air moving and their pants flapping want/need that and you can't tell them that they're wrong. The real tube amps have that feature built in because they're unruly beasts and can't help it.

All the devices that are not that (modelers, solid state amps, and the like) just don't have that built-in wallop, because their air-moving solution is often so puny: PC speakers, headphones, bookshelf monitors, 8" P speakers, the list goes on and on. Run 'em through a few hundred watts and 12" speakers, and it's a totally different story.

I will argue that a truly good modeler can make anyone happy if it's loud and authoritative enough and doesn't puss out because it's not moving enough air.

 

[Nice F Holes]

If you have the right headphones with the right power, it is a very good experience. I’m playing through a tube amp with a load box into a tube headphone amp with great headphones and it’s a phenomenal experience. All the tube gain, all transformer sag, great tone aimed right at my ear drum.

And there are decent new tubes being made in Russia and China. Not as good as old stock but better than ICs.

 

[Boogie]

...modelers, solid state amps, and the like...Run 'em through a few hundred watts and 12" speakers, and it's a totally different story...a truly good modeler can make anyone happy if it's loud and authoritative enough and doesn't puss out because it's not moving enough air.

Amen!

Having that ability to experience an amazing sound via headphones/personal monitoring is a fantastic fringe benefit, too. But the thing that hooked me to the Headrush/Alto 12” FRFR cabs is that it’s equipped with a 2000w power section. No, you don’t dial it to 10 and let ‘er rip...err, cook...but if you set it to 4 and preserve the rest for headroom, there’s some pant flap! I use 1 as a floor monitor and 1 behind for a bigger live show. They hold their own, and I kinda know what that means.

People have to remember that a 50w PA rig has nowhere the grunt of a 50w tube guitar amp...just look at the output transformers. And a decent amp will literally cook the voice coils of your POS Peavey floor monitors if you apply a meager amount of power for a few minutes, so get the right tools for the job. Heed the warning and don’t spend your money twice.

 

[CandidPicker]

...I will argue that a truly good modeler can make anyone happy if it's loud and authoritative enough and doesn't puss out because it's not moving enough air.

Can say that my 2x FRFR108s on speaker stands are plenty loud for my application. They project well, they aren't turned up past 3 or 4, and the Gigboard provides enough volume because the line output is set that way, not because the FRFRs require more volume. Even with stereo, you wouldn't want to play louder while sitting in front of these FRFRs (you might go deaf). They are adequate and plenty loud, for both home and live applications.

The caveat is realizing that my next door neighbor is a decent guy whom I respect, and would not subject him to my guitar practice for any more time than he might not wish. We're buds, and I'd hate to think that loud music would cause a division among us, otherwise he might call property management and I'd not be able to loudly practice guitar.

 

[dmatthews]

This and also "the power behind it" is the answer right here. Those who are addicted to the air moving and their pants flapping want/need that and you can't tell them that they're wrong. The real tube amps have that feature built in because they're unruly beasts and can't help it.

All the devices that are not that (modelers, solid state amps, and the like) just don't have that built-in wallop, because their air-moving solution is often so puny: PC speakers, headphones, bookshelf monitors, 8" P speakers, the list goes on and on. Run 'em through a few hundred watts and 12" speakers, and it's a totally different story.

I will argue that a truly good modeler can make anyone happy if it's loud and authoritative enough and doesn't puss out because it's not moving enough air.

The Kemper Kabinet has given me that pant flapping wallop back. Happy!

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I still remain dissatisfied with FRFR’s once I turn them up much. They are OK. Some tones even pretty good. But nothing I’ve tried matches the tones of my tube amps. If playing them through a power amp/guitar speaker is completely satisfying, that tells me that the IRs are still the weak link.

At low volumes, they are great. Late night practice, BETTER than a tube amp at supper low volumes. No doubt from my experience. But turn them up to even a bit of volume, and the advantage quickly swings to the tube amp.

 

[dmatthews]

I still remain dissatisfied with FRFR’s once I turn them up much. They are OK. Some tones even pretty good. But nothing I’ve tried matches the tones of my tube amps. If playing them through a power amp/guitar speaker is completely satisfying, that tells me that the IRs are still the weak link.

At low volumes, they are great. Late night practice, BETTER than a tube amp at supper low volumes. No doubt from my experience. But turn them up to even a bit of volume, and the advantage quickly swings to the tube amp.

I know what you mean. Kemper with DXR10, or Xitone MBritt etc sounds glorious to the audience. It sounds good to me as well, but just not the same on stage or at practice. No pant flap/air push.
The audience doesn't hear or care about stage monitoring, they only care about the overall output. As players we care about the close/source feel and sound.
That's why the Kemper and Kabinet works for me. It does both with no microphone.

 

[Boogie]

I know what you mean. Kemper with DXR10, or Xitone MBritt etc sounds glorious to the audience. It sounds good to me as well, but just not the same on stage or at practice. No pant flap/air push.
The audience doesn't hear or care about stage monitoring, they only care about the overall output. As players we care about the close/source feel and sound.
That's why the Kemper and Kabinet works for me. It does both with no microphone.

Gotta get me a Kab but I don’t have a powered toaster. Besides, we practice at such a high volume I’m wearing over-ear headphones for protection and the bass player would drown out any sonic impact from my guitar. Seriously!

 

[dmatthews]

Gotta get me a Kab but I don’t have a powered toaster. Besides, we practice at such a high volume I’m wearing over-ear headphones for protection and the bass player would drown out any sonic impact from my guitar. Seriously!

Def worth a try. And I'm pretty sure you'd lose no money if it didn't float your boat.