What is the Most Durable Fadeproof Color?

HANGAR18

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Over recent years there has been some attention brought to certain PRS colors which have faded over time. Off the top of my head I seem to recall a Northern Lights which faded, and then of course Tag's famous Salmon pink Private Stock. The 1959 Les Pauls too were notorious for fading, but I was under the impression that mankind had solved that problem by now.

The idea occurred to me that industry in general may be leaning towards this trendy idea of using environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on their manufactured products. I'm not talking about any waste byproducts which may come out of a particular factory, I'm talking about products, chemicals, stuff which comes with an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) which goes on the final product which the consumer will actually buy and take home with them.

* In the TV industry, the latest technology has two competitors at the top for the best picture quality. LG has the OLED technology and Samsung has the QLED technology. The difference is that the LG uses a bio-degradable substance inside their screens while the Samsung does not. Time will tell which picture fades faster over time.
* In the firearms industry, there have been a whole lot of new brands of lubricating oils which have popped up in recent years and are advertised as being environmentally friendly and bio-degradable. But over a short period of time, if you leave that oil on the gun, the oil turns to a glue like substance and they seize up and stop working.

Me personally, I have absolutely no interest in environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on finished products as described above. I'm not going to leave my consumer products laying on the ground in the back yard where they can get rained on, which will then contaminate the water in the Chesapeake Bay. (yes, I actually live in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.) I keep all those things indoors where they won't get rained on. It is my carefully considered opinion that for as much as a Core line or Private Stock guitar cost, they had better not fade in MY lifetime.

Thus, in the PRS guitar finishing effort, I can't help but wonder two things:
1. Are the PRS finishes among the trendy bio-degradable and environmentally friendly chemicals? If so, will that cause them to fade quickly over time?
2. Regardless of what coloring agent PRS uses on their guitar finishes, does anyone have any idea which color or colors are the most durable and fadeproof over time?
 
I would reckon the black based colors like charcoal to be most durable. Maybe the dark browns like Black Gold too?
 
Natural
White
Black
Assuming they weren’t finished in nitro which would yellow over time as the finish ages

Any other color (for PRS) I believe is created with an organic based stain so it will likely fade over time when exposed to light. Not sure what the half life is on fading when cased :)
 
Come to think of it, I’ve never seen a faded Black Cherry PRS, and I’ve looked at an inordinate amount of used PRS guitars over the years.
 
Over recent years there has been some attention brought to certain PRS colors which have faded over time. Off the top of my head I seem to recall a Northern Lights which faded, and then of course Tag's famous Salmon pink Private Stock. The 1959 Les Pauls too were notorious for fading, but I was under the impression that mankind had solved that problem by now.

The idea occurred to me that industry in general may be leaning towards this trendy idea of using environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on their manufactured products. I'm not talking about any waste byproducts which may come out of a particular factory, I'm talking about products, chemicals, stuff which comes with an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) which goes on the final product which the consumer will actually buy and take home with them.

* In the TV industry, the latest technology has two competitors at the top for the best picture quality. LG has the OLED technology and Samsung has the QLED technology. The difference is that the LG uses a bio-degradable substance inside their screens while the Samsung does not. Time will tell which picture fades faster over time.
* In the firearms industry, there have been a whole lot of new brands of lubricating oils which have popped up in recent years and are advertised as being environmentally friendly and bio-degradable. But over a short period of time, if you leave that oil on the gun, the oil turns to a glue like substance and they seize up and stop working.

Me personally, I have absolutely no interest in environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on finished products as described above. I'm not going to leave my consumer products laying on the ground in the back yard where they can get rained on, which will then contaminate the water in the Chesapeake Bay. (yes, I actually live in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.) I keep all those things indoors where they won't get rained on. It is my carefully considered opinion that for as much as a Core line or Private Stock guitar cost, they had better not fade in MY lifetime.

Thus, in the PRS guitar finishing effort, I can't help but wonder two things:
1. Are the PRS finishes among the trendy bio-degradable and environmentally friendly chemicals? If so, will that cause them to fade quickly over time?
2. Regardless of what coloring agent PRS uses on their guitar finishes, does anyone have any idea which color or colors are the most durable and fadeproof over time?

Nice postulation! My question is, isn't it the dyes themselves that have the fading issue, and not the finishing/top coats? We know nitro yellows over time( although I believe they have managed to get some control of that issue over the years). We all know how PRS blue dyes fade over time, as well as the pink you mentioned above. IIRC, it's the inherent nature of these dyes, some which are organic, to undergo a natural degradation/fading over time. Again, most examples fall into the blue category, as there are numerous photos out there of "my guitar used to be blue". I don't believe the issue is in the topcoats at all, whether they are environmental friendly or not, but is an (un)fortunate characteristic of the dyes themselves.
 
I'd love to see a clearcoat developed that has some sort of UV filtering properties built in - just like the filtering in the glass that's used for display cases and other artwork framing materials. I'm sure someone will chime in saying that it does exist, but we're yet to see it being used widely (or successfully) in guitar finishes.
 
Over recent years there has been some attention brought to certain PRS colors which have faded over time. Off the top of my head I seem to recall a Northern Lights which faded, and then of course Tag's famous Salmon pink Private Stock. The 1959 Les Pauls too were notorious for fading, but I was under the impression that mankind had solved that problem by now.

The idea occurred to me that industry in general may be leaning towards this trendy idea of using environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on their manufactured products. I'm not talking about any waste byproducts which may come out of a particular factory, I'm talking about products, chemicals, stuff which comes with an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) which goes on the final product which the consumer will actually buy and take home with them.

* In the TV industry, the latest technology has two competitors at the top for the best picture quality. LG has the OLED technology and Samsung has the QLED technology. The difference is that the LG uses a bio-degradable substance inside their screens while the Samsung does not. Time will tell which picture fades faster over time.
* In the firearms industry, there have been a whole lot of new brands of lubricating oils which have popped up in recent years and are advertised as being environmentally friendly and bio-degradable. But over a short period of time, if you leave that oil on the gun, the oil turns to a glue like substance and they seize up and stop working.

Me personally, I have absolutely no interest in environmentally friendly bio-degradable chemicals on finished products as described above. I'm not going to leave my consumer products laying on the ground in the back yard where they can get rained on, which will then contaminate the water in the Chesapeake Bay. (yes, I actually live in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.) I keep all those things indoors where they won't get rained on. It is my carefully considered opinion that for as much as a Core line or Private Stock guitar cost, they had better not fade in MY lifetime.

Thus, in the PRS guitar finishing effort, I can't help but wonder two things:
1. Are the PRS finishes among the trendy bio-degradable and environmentally friendly chemicals? If so, will that cause them to fade quickly over time?
2. Regardless of what coloring agent PRS uses on their guitar finishes, does anyone have any idea which color or colors are the most durable and fadeproof over time?

I’ve posted a few times about this, but it’s worth discussing. Here’s your answer to question one:

There are two kinds of pigments, organic and inorganic. Inorganic pigments don’t fade, but they are far less translucent. Organic pigments let you see the wood grain, but they are photosensitive to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the color.

This isn’t really a tech thing, or an environmental thing; it’s a chemical reaction in the pigment triggered by exposure to photons.

And to question 2:

Amber shades seem to last forever. I’d also guess black.

And a further observation:

Fading is triggered by exposure to photons, i.e., light.

I have never had fading on any of my PRSes, including my Northern Lights guitar, but I keep them cased for a variety of reasons. This is my Northern Lights guitar, taken a couple of weeks ago at a little over 3 1/2 years old.

Though it does look truly different in every light (this pic is a combination of an overhead light and bright daylight, the other ones I posted earlier were taken under fluorescent light), there has been zero fading. In some light it looks more purple, in other light darker, or more blue, but hasn’t faded. If you’re truly all about a guitar that doesn’t change with light, the simple thing to do is keep it in the case when you’re not playing it. The guitar will also need fewer maintenance adjustments and so on due to the buffering action of the case.

vBlVpql.jpg
 
Yeah, come to think of it, I’ve never seen a faded tortoise either. VY for sure and a couple charcoals, but I chalk that up to the blue that’s in the charcoal.

Even on the old 50s Les Pauls, the amber part seems to not have faded very much, but the red edges seem to fade to brown often.

Folks don’t seem to understand that organic materials that were once part of living things are built by mother nature to react to light, though in fairness, most people don’t know how the chemicals in stains are derived.

There is also a certain amount of absorption that takes place; because wood is kind of a brownish-tan thing, the amber and brown shades seem to sit well, even if they do react to light. Remember that the wood itself yellows over time, even when finished. So that kind of goes nicely with an amber shade and reinforces it.

The maple edges on the studio furniture my brother and I made 25 years ago were once close to white - they’re now very much amber. The change occurred with very little exposure to daylight; it’s mostly been indoor lighting. It was simply finished with tung oil, and it isn’t that the finish has yellowed; I’ve sanded out and refinished a couple of dings, and the wood underneath has yellowed a great deal.
 
Even on the old 50s Les Pauls, the amber part seems to not have faded very much, but the red edges seem to fade to brown often.

Folks don’t seem to understand that organic materials that were once part of living things are built by mother nature to react to light, though in fairness, most people don’t know how the chemicals in stains are derived.

There is also a certain amount of absorption that takes place; because wood is kind of a brownish-tan thing, the amber and brown shades seem to sit well, even if they do react to light. Remember that the wood itself yellows over time, even when finished. So that kind of goes nicely with an amber shade and reinforces it.

The maple edges on the studio furniture my brother and I made 25 years ago were once close to white - they’re now very much amber.

Word.

Anything red is made of bugs. Beetles I believe.​
 
I've only seen issues with Blue. Interestingly my Emerald Green (Blue+Yellow) from 2006 is still as green as ever.

I have a Yellow that I expect to last forever.

If you were to make a UV-blocking clearcoat, I believe that the clearcoat would be less stable, as it would block the UV by absorbing more of it. So the color may not fade, but you'll be looking at it through a cloudy clear.

 
Also, if you look at antique furniture with bookmatched veneers and their original finishes, you’ll see that amber stains are pretty durable.
I'd love to see a clearcoat developed that has some sort of UV filtering properties built in - just like the filtering in the glass that's used for display cases and other artwork framing materials. I'm sure someone will chime in saying that it does exist, but we're yet to see it being used widely (or successfully) in guitar finishes.

UV-resistant finishes do exist.

It’s not just ultraviolet light that triggers the chemical reaction that causes fading. Any photons will do, including those generated by indoor lighting.

However, the UV light will usually cause the reaction to occur more quickly.


Word.

Anything red is made of bugs. Beetles I believe.​

And you probably don’t want to know what yellow is made with...:D
 
As all of my PRS's are some shade of blue, I'm especially interested in this subject. I do hang them in my guitar room, but I keep the lights turned off, and I have blackout curtains, too. So the only time that they're really exposed to any light is when I'm playing them. Unfortunately, I don't get THAT much time to play, so I think they should be safe! LOL

Also, I've built a few guitars, and most luthier's use analine dyes. All of them are organic based, as Les said, and are subject to some extent of fade. I think reds and blues seem to be the worst. I think even the yellows and ambers fade, just not as quickly or as obvious, especially when compared to the reds often used in the sun burst finishes like the 59 LP's.
 
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