What Are Your Favorite Amps To Play?

[Bogner]

So… I have a need for a small combo. I’m looking mainly at 1x8 and 1x10 combos. I’d consider head/cab setup if the cab is small, since the ATMA head is really small, and you suggest a 4x12…

I’d like to congratulate you. You are now officially joining Bodia, Sergio and the others in the Professional Enablers Club

Well...I Did Dial It Back Some. Normally I Would Suggest At Least Two 4x12's.

We All Have Our Cross We Carry...I Am Just Doing My Part To "Help".

 

[WingerRules]

Well...I Did Dial It Back Some. Normally I Would Suggest At Least Two 4x12's.

We All Have Our Cross We Carry...I Am Just Doing My Part To "Help".

Just remember, you’re talking to the guy who had a three year long weekly gig, that he played every single time with a Roland Micro Cube.

 

[Bogner]

Just remember, you’re talking to the guy who had a three year long weekly gig, that he played every single time with a Roland Micro Cube.

I Know! I Am Trying To Nudge You Along To "Bigger" Things...4X12 Of Them...LOL.

 

[WingerRules]

I Know! I Am Trying To Nudge You Along To "Bigger" Things...4X12 Of Them...LOL.

I always wanted a 4x12. I really don’t have a very strong desire for one any longer. I could easily add a second Zbest and decimate any 4x.

 

[Bogner]

I always wanted a 4x12. I really don’t have a very strong desire for one any longer. I could easily add a second Zbest and decimate any 4x.

Oh Boy...Here We Go...

 

[WingerRules]

I always wanted a 4x12. I really don’t have a very strong desire for one any longer. I could easily add a second Zbest and decimate any 4x.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t buy one, and due to crazy shipping prices and shrinking demand, I hear they are easy to snag cheap locally as people just don’t want to ship them.

 

[GGJJGG]

So… I have a need for a small combo. I’m looking mainly at 1x8 and 1x10 combos. I’d consider head/cab setup if the cab is small, since the ATMA head is really small, and you suggest a 4x12…

I’d like to congratulate you. You are now officially joining Bodia, Sergio and the others in the Professional Enablers Club

My Little Walter Earl amp might be right up your alley. Maybe a bit pricey but it has great tone and the head/cab are small and portable (it’s a 12 inch speaker).

 

[veinbuster]

I Know! I Am Trying To Nudge You Along To "Bigger" Things...4X12 Of Them...LOL.

And here I am with just a pair of 4x10

 

[Bogner]

And here I am with just a pair of 4x10

And They Are Fabulous!

 

[Bogner]

Today Is Wizard Modern Classic Day!

 

[László]

I could easily add a second Zbest and decimate any 4x.

Nah. Far from it.

You could play some cabs that sounded different from a great 4x12. 'Decimate'? The comparison is apples and oranges. Chalk and cheese.

A 4x12 has a different set of resonances and low end response than any pair of 2x12s. They live in different worlds.

Z-Bests are great cabs, but a really great one like the late '60s Marshall cab I recorded my Two-Rock Onyx through at one of my fave studios is truly a thing of merriment and joy. And one can't duplicate the other.

If you said you simply like two 2x12 ZBest cabs better, I'd have no truck with your comment. 'Decimate' is simply the wrong verb.

 

[WingerRules]

If you said you simply like two 2x12 ZBest cabs better, I'd have no truck with your comment. 'Decimate' is simply the wrong verb.

Obviously I was just having some fun with Mr. Bogner. However, 2 Z-bests stacked would give you all (at least almost all of) the swirl and phasing and things a regular 4x cab would give you. But it would also be basically a 4x12 Thiele cab. There are tests published showing a 1x12 Thiele with EVM is louder (and throws better) than a 4x12 1960A with Greenbacks. Given that two zbests would allow you the possibility (if you had that crane you've been wanting to move it) of having a 4x12 Thiele cab with 4 EVM type speakers. SURELY that could actually decimate a standard 4x12 cab. I don't know where other than a colosseum or outdoors that you could ever turn it up load enough to prove this, but in theory, it could actually decimate... your ears, the other cab, the foundation of your home, etc.

 

[László]

Obviously I was just having some fun with Mr. Bogner.

Provocatively so.

'Decimate' can be interpreted several ways, but there are negative connotations. In general, it implies 'better than'.

Now for today's history lesson, presented as a public service for those of us who think of the Roman Empire on a daily basis:

'Decimate' has its origin in Latin. It's based on the Roman punishment for cowardice in a Legion. The soldiers would be ordered to kill one in ten of their fellow-soldiers by methods like using clubs, stones or swords. They drew lots to determine who'd live and who'd die.

The prefix 'dec' is the basis for our words decade, decimal, and other things based in division by the number ten.

There are tests published showing a 1x12 Thiele with EVM is louder (and throws better) than a 4x12 1960A with Greenbacks.

Since an EVM is a significantly more efficient and therefore louder speaker than a Greenback, and one that can handle 220W (double the wattage of a 4x12 with Greenbacks), this isn't all that surprising.

Nonetheless, it's a speaker that even in combination with others like it will sound very different from a 4x12 with Greenies, with sharper upper midrange and high frequencies, etc. In other words, it's a different beast, and I don't see the validity of a comparison.

The fullness, phase (causing swirling effects), resonances and so forth are different between 2x12s and 4x12s, especially when different types of speakers are employed.

 

[WingerRules]

Provocatively so.

'Decimate' can be interpreted several ways, but there are negative connotations. In general, it implies 'better than'.

Now for today's history lesson, presented as a public service for those of us who think of the Roman Empire on a daily basis:

'Decimate' has its origin in Latin. It's based on the Roman punishment for cowardice in a Legion. The soldiers would be ordered to kill one in ten of their fellow-soldiers by methods like using clubs, stones or swords. They drew lots to determine who'd live and who'd die.

The prefix 'dec' is the basis for our words decade, decimal, and other things based in division by the number ten.

Since an EVM is a significantly more efficient and therefore louder speaker than a Greenback, and one that can handle 220W (double the wattage of a 4x12 with Greenbacks), this isn't all that surprising.

Nonetheless, it's a speaker that even in combination with others like it will sound very different from a 4x12 with Greenies, with sharper upper midrange and high frequencies, etc. In other words, it's a different beast, and I don't see the validity of a comparison.

The fullness, phase (causing swirling effects), resonances and so forth are different between 2x12s and 4x12s, especially when different types of speakers are employed.

I'm all about the Roman Empire and all, but do they have to take the fun out of everything?



And yes, I know all that. Perhaps "dominate" would be a better word, since I'm still provocatively trying to "get Mr. Bogner's proverbial goat."

On a more serious note... can you even imagine two Zbests stacked and loaded with 4 EVMs? HOLY CRAP! There was someone famous that posted pics (Might have been Sykes, as he was well known for using a Colosseum version of the Mark II) that had the Mesa 4x12 cabs that were open back on top, closed on bottom and his had 4 EV speakers. He said the roadies hated it but back when your stack was your "PA" it was an incredible rig. A Mark II Colosseum head (180 watts) and two 4x12s with a total of 8 EV speaker. HOLY CRAP AGAIN!

 

[aamefford]

I’m interested in the whole 2x2x12 vs 4x12 thing. I’m far more interested in Mr. Bogner’s goat. I didn’t know he had one. My daughter recently did a small paper on Goat Yoga for yoga class at the community college. I don’t know where this is going. I’m just target fixated on goats at this second. My wife often tells me I’m odd. I just tell her “you should try living in here full time!” I know I’m not alone in this community! Ok, back to favorite amps. Sorry for the diversion.

 

[László]

I'm all about the Roman Empire and all, but do they have to take the fun out of everything?

I think they pretty much DID take the fun out of everything, especially for the millions of slaves they owned.

And yes, I know all that. Perhaps "dominate" would be a better word, since I'm still provocatively trying to "get Mr. Bogner's proverbial goat."

Yes.

On a more serious note... can you even imagine two Zbests stacked and loaded with 4 EVMs? HOLY CRAP! There was someone famous that posted pics (Might have been Sykes, as he was well known for using a Colosseum version of the Mark II) that had the Mesa 4x12 cabs that were open back on top, closed on bottom and his had 4 EV speakers. He said the roadies hated it but back when your stack was your "PA" it was an incredible rig. A Mark II Colosseum head (180 watts) and two 4x12s with a total of 8 EV speaker. HOLY CRAP AGAIN!

Duane Allman also famously opened the backs of his Marshall 4x12s and loaded them with EVMs. But yeah, in those days, only vocals went into PA systems, not instruments.

I had a Bassman 50W black panel head with a Bassman 4x12 back in the late '60s. It was always cranked to 10; if it had gone to 11 I'd have done that, too!

I also used it both with my combo organ and in combination with a Hammond. I got the cabinet into the back seat of a '65 Mustang and later a '68 Firebird 400, put the head on the passenger seat, and my guitar and combo organ into the trunk. I have no idea at all how I managed to carry this stuff around. But until we had a roadie (whose name was Big Sue) and an equipment van (a blue Dodge van where the equipment lived, even in the dead of winter!) I must have!

I have no idea at all what speakers were in it. But it got pretty loud...

 

[aamefford]

I recall roadie-ing a Hammond B3 for bar and Midwest dance hall gigs in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s. 4 guys, one on each corner. Stairs were dreadful. Then there was the Leslie to go with it.

 

[DISTORT6]

I recall roadie-ing a Hammond B3 for bar and Midwest dance hall gigs in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s. 4 guys, one on each corner. Stairs were dreadful. Then there was the Leslie to go with it.

I had the same crap experience helping out my buddies southern rock band back in the ‘90’s.
The keyboardist insisted on using it even though you could easily use a synth (or whatever those guys call it) version at that time. Modeler vs Tube wars foreshadowing!

 

[WingerRules]

I’m far more interested in Mr. Bogner’s goat. I didn’t know he had one.

Dude, he has EVERYTHING!!!

 

[László]

I had the same crap experience helping out my buddies southern rock band back in the ‘90’s.
The keyboardist insisted on using it even though you could easily use a synth (or whatever those guys call it) version at that time. Modeler vs Tube wars foreshadowing!

As a guy who gigged with a real Hammond tone wheel organ in the early '70s...there are reasons for using the real thing, (and one big reason not to, namely the tonnage you've got to drag around!).

You're synthesizing three things, not just one: the tonewheel organ, with its inherent nonlinearities on EACH wheel; the amp; and finally, the spinning horns and rotating drum around the low frequency speaker to create the doppler effect. It's just not gonna happen.

Imagine playing a keyboard synth guitar and then plugging it into a modeled amp. Now throw in trying to model or synthesize doppler effects at different rotating speaker speeds.

It's too much of an ask.

This isn't modeler vs tube. I don't know any keyboard players who'd claim that an algorithmic or modeled Hammond can do what the real tone wheel Hammond-plus Leslie speaker does. We're not talking about subtle differences as with modelers vs amps.

Part of it is the difficulty of duplicating the nonlinearities of a tonewheel organ, each one contributing its own set of them.

The other thing is that no IR, no algorithm, nothing has succeeded in duplicating the doppler effect of two spinning horns, with their very high efficiency and oomph (they don't need much power), and then there's the rotating low frequency drum operating at a different speed. as it goes around the bass speaker.

Even Eventide, who've done a creditable job trying since the '80s, haven't been able to manage it on any of their products.

That doesn't mean I'd be willing to drag a real Hammond around to gigs now - I wouldn't even if I had roadies - but I'd be awfully tempted to re-box a real Leslie speaker in a lighter, road-worthy cab.

"You speak as if you weren't already nearly dead, with all this 'road worthy cab' talk."

"I'm ignoring the 'nearly dead' part because (a) my Ouija Board hasn't told me the exact date, time or place of my impending doom, and (b) I'd like to have a good time while I'm here, K?"

"Your idea of a good time is imagining you're still gigging?"

"Got a better idea?"

"I'd say...no."