Visually identifying maple top grades?

[sumitagarwal]

I know that different brands use different scales (PRS "10 top", Gibson and others "5A", etc), and so I don't know if there's any good resources for norms around what different grades of maple tops are, but is anyone aware of a good reference?

In particular I'm curious about any standards for quilt top grades, even if those standards are brand-specific. Would be great if there were industry-wide standards but that's probably way too utopian of me.

Wasn't sure where to post this, but I feel like PRS owners are the most tuned in to this stuff.

 

[RC Mike]

For PRS, it changes over time. What is a 10 Top in one batch of wood isn’t in the next. It’s all relative to the rest of the wood.

I’m far from knowledgeable about grading tops. For me it’s the old adage about pornography—I know it when I see it. Regardless of how something is marked or graded, I like what I like.

 

[dogrocketp]

Please don’t fall in love with numbers. The eyes should tell you what you need to see. I personally prefer tops that are irregular, as most trees are not symmetrical.

 

[Steve Dombroski]

To @dogrocketp ‘s point, numbers are subjective honestly.

I love a quality consistent flame to a top, but then you get tops like this. Not a 10 top, but one of my absolute favorite tops in the wild currently.

PRS USA Paul Reed Smith McCarty 594 "McCarty Burst + Rosewood" (2017) | New Squealing Pig Gu

The McCarty 594 is a versatile, vintage-inspired instrument renowned for its effortless playability. With a bound 22-fret Pattern Vintage neck and slightly thicker back for enhanced tone and sustain, this guitar delivers impeccable tuning stability and exceptional intonation across the entire...

www.squealingpigguitars.co.uk

 

[Greywolf]

the "fade " areas are why Sunbursts came along .. hide the less pretty wood ...

also helpful ....

There are 4 ways to orient per side ..

 

[Maertl513]

PRS discriminates in more than 10 Top. Above are Artist Grade/Artist Package, Wood Library, Private Stock.

To evaluate the grain it's not subjective manner by the respective evaluator. It's 10 Top should provide over the full visible area best evenly grain and no flaws. And even a one piece maple top makes the PRS not a 10 Top grade with extra charge. But (second hand) dealers ask for in relation higher prices than a 10 Top version...

Gibson takes their A nomenclatura (e. g. AAA-grade).

And sometimes one grade bores one but excites an other. The same with Private Stock. Not every PS is a mouth watering piece.

 

[RC Mike]

PRS discriminates in more than 10 Top. Above are Artist Grade/Artist Package, Wood Library, Private Stock.

Wood Library isn’t a grade of top. Wood Library just means that a dealer has ordered the guitar with some feature that isn’t in the catalog. That can mean a different sent of pickups, different types or grades of wood, different finishes, etc.

The point being that Wood Library guitars can have tops ranging from sub-standard with an opaque finish all the way up to a Private Stock grade.

 

[Kiwi]

Thanks, Greywolf. That explanation of grading figured wood was interesting.

Also interesting is the same guy demonstrating all the possible defects in figured maple. Makes you appreciate how rare the perfect pieces are.

=K

 

[Maertl513]

@RC Mike, I agree on your explanation to WL.

The Wood Library - What Is It?

USA/Maryland-based Manufacturer of Electric Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Basses and Accessories.

eu.prsguitars.com

 

[deathworlder]

the "fade " areas are why Sunbursts came along .. hide the less pretty wood ...

also helpful ....

There are 4 ways to orient per side ..

Hey...
You ever built one using just planes and scrapers; no sandpaper?

 

[Greywolf]

body wise it's possible, however you need sandpaper or some mild abrasive for the finish ... 1500-3000 grit wet.. then polish and buff...

 

[guitar_man_man_man]

For PRS, it changes over time. What is a 10 Top in one batch of wood isn’t in the next. It’s all relative to the rest of the wood.

I’m far from knowledgeable about grading tops. For me it’s the old adage about pornography—I know it when I see it. Regardless of how something is marked or graded, I like what I like.

Copy/pasting something I wrote on the PRS subreddit a while back on the “relative to the batch” idea:

I see this “relative to the batch” theory in a lot of these kinds of “10-top vs non-10” threads but it doesn’t appear to be true based on what PRS themselves has put out on their process:

Their definition of 10-top is “clearly defined figure across its entire top” and the guy says at around the 4 minute mark in the video linked above that tops can get upgraded to or downgraded from 10-top status after carving or staining. So you shouldn’t get tops that are marked as 10 at receipt but end up looking non-10 after carving or staining while still retaining the 10-top designation.

I think where there’s room for error is the subjective nature of “clearly defined” - what’s clearly defined for one person might be unimpressive to another. There are definitely 10-tops out there (e.g., my Santana 10-top) that photograph poorly from traditional angles but look incredible and 3D under the lights and with a little motion. There are also certain finishes that do not show off flame very well (IMO McCarty Tobacco Sunburst like OPs is one of them).

 

[sumitagarwal]

Thanks folks, seems like there's some method to this though if there's anything like an internal standard they're using its not documented publicly anywhere.

Many of my favorite tops, especially on Les Paul style guitars, are often the more inconsistent and funkier ones. But for some guitars, it just works.

On the PRS side I have no mega figured tops, but I was admiring an ESP Original (i.e. Japan custom shop) that I have. I was noticing that the quilt on it is more intense than others I've seen listed in the wild for sale, but comparable to the official ESP catalog shot.

Then I noticed the grain pattern looked like mine. Veneers cut thin from the same plank? I double checked... a big thick slab of maple on top of the ash body, with the maple top grain continuing through the slab on the sides. So I looked at the abalone dots, same patterns again. Oh! Turns out mine is the one from the catalog shoot!

So I started wondering: maybe they hand-selected a higher grade of maple for the catalog shot guitar? That sent me down the maple grading rabbit hole.

Anyways, here it is. That big flat Tele style body is a wonderful canvas for a nice piece of wood

 

[RC Mike]

Copy/pasting something I wrote on the PRS subreddit a while back on the “relative to the batch” idea:

I see this “relative to the batch” theory in a lot of these kinds of “10-top vs non-10” threads but it doesn’t appear to be true based on what PRS themselves has put out on their process:

Their definition of 10-top is “clearly defined figure across its entire top” and the guy says at around the 4 minute mark in the video linked above that tops can get upgraded to or downgraded from 10-top status after carving or staining. So you shouldn’t get tops that are marked as 10 at receipt but end up looking non-10 after carving or staining while still retaining the 10-top designation.

Never confuse PRS marketing materials with truth or with anything other than what they are very specifically saying. The very nature of the name is relative. A “10” in comparison to the 8s and 9s that they use on most Core guitars. It’s a subjective, not an objective, measurement.

 

[guitar_man_man_man]

Never confuse PRS marketing materials with truth or with anything other than what they are very specifically saying. The very nature of the name is relative. A “10” in comparison to the 8s and 9s that they use on most Core guitars. It’s a subjective, not an objective, measurement.

100% agree with your last line there: it all boils down to a subjective judgment call that a fallible human has to make. What counts as being figured, not figured, fully-figured, etc. is impossible to standardize and definitely depends on who’s looking at it. Do some tops slip through as 10s that some set of customers would agree aren’t “fully-figured”? Probably.

My contention is with the “graded relative to the batch” idea - I just can’t imagine that’s how it’s been done based on what PRS the company has put out there about their selection process and how PRS the man seems to operate. I can’t see them saying “there must be at least X% of 10-tops per maple shipment.” I’d love to be proven wrong, but I think a “sub-par” 10-top in the eyes of a customer is just the result of a difference in subjective opinion on what constitutes a “fully-figured” top. I’m just one data point obviously, but the 5 or so 10-top PRSi I’ve seen first-hand have all looked to have figuring across the whole top, even if it’s not apparent in photographs.

 

[RC Mike]

100% agree with your last line there: it all boils down to a subjective judgment call that a fallible human has to make. What counts as being figured, not figured, fully-figured, etc. is impossible to standardize and definitely depends on who’s looking at it. Do some tops slip through as 10s that some set of customers would agree aren’t “fully-figured”? Probably.

My contention is with the “graded relative to the batch” idea - I just can’t imagine that’s how it’s been done based on what PRS the company has put out there about their selection process and how PRS the man seems to operate. I can’t see them saying “there must be at least X% of 10-tops per maple shipment.” I’d love to be proven wrong, but I think a “sub-par” 10-top in the eyes of a customer is just the result of a difference in subjective opinion on what constitutes a “fully-figured” top. I’m just one data point obviously, but the 5 or so 10-top PRSi I’ve seen first-hand have all looked to have figuring across the whole top, even if it’s not apparent in photographs.

Believe what you want. Believing one thing or another won’t change how it works.

 

[guitar_man_man_man]

Believe what you want. Believing one thing or another won’t change how it works.

Fair enough, and the end result is the same - some people won’t be happy with some of the 10 tops out there. Best bet is to pick a guitar with a top you like the look of no matter what’s on the hang tag or headstock!

 

[Gtrbldr]

For PRS, it changes over time. What is a 10 Top in one batch of wood isn’t in the next. It’s all relative to the rest of the wood.

I’m far from knowledgeable about grading tops. For me it’s the old adage about pornography—I know it when I see it. Regardless of how something is marked or graded, I like what I like.

This I believe to be correct. I have had the priviledge of owning two 10 tops at the same time. One curly, the other quilt. Curly was definately the better top. The quilt, if it were a flame, would probably not be a 10.

 

[dogrocketp]

Thanks for the videos, Greywolf. It was really exciting to learn.