Valve quality and consistency

[GuitarAddict]

Twice recently I have had my amp sound deteriorate with a lack of bass and a very harsh treble especially on pinched harmonic notes. A change of power valve has normally sorted it out but this time I had to change a preamp valve as well and it took several different ones before I found some that didn’t sound harsh and irritating or fizzy to my ear. I was surprised at just how much identical valves varied in tone and they are either JJ or Harma some even NOS. I think the quality is getting worse on the new stuff and I can see a time not too far ahead that the Katana amp will be getting a LOT more use. Anyone else found similar?
Also with all the problems in east Europe atm the supply of valves out of Russia will be zero.

 

[chicagoslim]

Tube quality has been going down for decades, while the prices go up. I have kept my two favorite tube amps, but I try not to power cycle them, every time I want to play for 10 to 20 minutes. I don't see myself ever buying another tube amp.

It's hard to beat the value of a Boss Katana. As a guitar teacher, I try to direct my students, in that direction. Plus, I would rather see them spend more money on a decent playing guitar, than spend their money on pedals.

The biggest problem that I see with digital amps, is that they are less expensive amps, using cheap speakers and particle board construction. I recently bought a Boss NexTone Stage and Tone Master Deluxe Reverb. They actually sound good. I replaced the speaker in the NexTone with a higher-quality speaker, and it's now that much closer to my tube amps. I now only see myself bi-amping with a tube amp for gigs.

 

[GuitarAddict]

I have the Katana 100 w head which i run through a ten inch cab. (I prefer the 10s to 12s due to size of my music room) but even through the built in small practice speaker it sounds good. I am seriously considering getting another and making use of the stereo link feature. The Artist model comes with a waza speaker tuned to the cab, which is also a considered purchase. The Tone Master was also on my list, but i wish they did it in a head version, but I’ve fallen foul of the attenuation no master volume set up before with one click one way being too quiet and one click the other being too loud at any given set amount of break up, which is why I went Katana. I don’t use pedals as i prefer to control the sound from the guitar so I haven’t used the deep editing and it has nothing to do whatsoever with my MacBook being too old to run the software

 

[chicagoslim]

I had a Katana 50 and 100, Mark 1. I never hooked mine up to a computer. I could turn the knobs and dial-in good Tweed sounds. I've used 10" Eminence Legend 105's, with several of my amps. The speaker tends to make most amps sound pretty big and loud, while adding more of a Tweed tone.

My TMDR see's most of it's use as a 24 lbs PA. I often perform as the lead singer, and I don't want to haul my PA and speakers, if I don't have to.

 

[Em7]

It should not come as a surprise to anyone that tube technology is on a downward slope. Guitarists have kept a technology alive that has pretty much been dead in consumer electronics for over 40 years (radio transmitters were the last commercial use of tube technology). That is how conservative we are as a group. The current crop of young guitarists were not even alive when the last American vacuum tube factory shut down. The fall of the Berlin Wall plus the huge release of JAN tubes from military surplus breathed new life into gear and designs that were on there way out. Sooner or later, guitarists who do not make the switch to more modern technology will be relegated to sorting through Eastern European and Chinese old stock for usable tubes. It is not a matter of if. It is just a matter of when. There will never be another vacuum tube plant in the United States. Vacuum tube manufacturing is a filthy business. Most of the old manufacturing sites are Superfund sites.

I have used tube and solid-state amps since I started to play guitar in 1976. Analog solid-state gear is not bad. It is just different. Solid-state got a bad rap in the early days because guitar amp manufacturers were trying to substitute transistors for tubes in what had been tube circuit designs. That does not work. However, more guitar was recorded using solid-state gear than tube gear in the eighties through the grunge period. Solid-state gear is inherently more reliable, and reliability is money to touring artists. If we think about the companies that owned the rack preamp market, most built solid-state gear. Sure, there were rack mounted tube preamps and power amps, but they were not the norm because rack mounting and gear that produces a lot of heat do not go together. Some artists decided not to switch back to tube gear after the tube renaissance. ZZ Top's current live gear is made up of JMP-1 preamps and ValveState power amps. A lot people will claim that a JMP-1 is a tube preamp, but that is being kind. There is one 12AX7A in a JMP-1. Its job is to add color to the signal. Most of the signal path is solid-state. The ADA MP-1 is built along the same lines. A lot of the gain tones that we associate with tube amps were actually recorded with solid-state gear.

If we think about reliability and versatility, solid-state beats tube technology hands down. It is not even close. If we are talking about pure tube tone, the best tube designs are one trick ponies, which are great for a few older genres. Sticking an array of pedals in front of a clean tube amp is not pure tube tone. If fact, most of the tone is coming from solid-state technology. The tube amp is only providing feel due to being poorly regulated and damped and that is only after the tube amp reaches its sweet spot.

 

[chicagoslim]

Besides for the lighter weight, the digital amps have a lot less noise and hiss. I've gotten dirty looks from artists, when they are trying to talk to the audience. Too much of that and you won't get called back.

In Nashville, you see a lot of Katanas on Broadway, where you have to park and walk (and carry). Many of the backlines for big acts are using Tone Master Super Reverbs.

 

[Em7]

Besides for the lighter weight, the digital amps have a lot less noise and hiss.

That is because so many of the "boutique" amp designers have bought into the carbon composition resistors equals tone myth. All carbon composition resistors do is add noise. You will see a lot of boutique companies claim that they use 2W carbon composition resistors as plate resistors in the small signal (voltage amplification) stages of their tube, but that is only necessary because it helps to overcome the fact that carbon composition resisters are noisy. I prefer to use metal film resistors when a lower noise floor is desired. However, even then, tube hiss is difficult to manage. That is why it is important to use the lowest noise tube one can find in V1 on most amps. Any noise that is generated by that tube is amplified along with the signal in the gain stages that follow.

 

[Em7]

By the way, some of the best rock guitar tone I have ever heard was during a Gamma performance at Old Chicago in 1979. Ronnie was using Lab Series L11 heads. I was quite shocked by the rock tone he was getting out of those amps.

 

[RickP]

I love my tube amps, and play them a lot at home. I have a couple of shelves full of my favorite tubes, most no longer made. I’ll be fine for my lifetime.

But digital has come light years in the past two decades. I started gigging an Axe Fx in 2011, and still gig Fractal Audio gear to this day. The tone, effects, routing options, and versatility is both audience and road worthy. I don’t think I’ll ever go back.

But it is important to note that I get all my tone inspiration from tube amps, as does every digital amp maker since there was such a thing. There may come a time where a new set of tubes will cost a considerable percentage of the rig cost. That will be the point they become reference tools; expensive things people use to tune the mass product. We’re on that path, though I doubt it’ll be something I see.

To the OP, tube makers seem consistent: consistently decent or consistently mediocre. Best you can do is find what works, and get some spares. Even NOS can be found at a reasonable cost if you shop and keep your feelers out. Or buy an Axe Fx III (Or FM9, etc). Any other digital “fix” hasn’t cut it for me in live playing, so I’m not wasting time or money there. YMMV, as they say, but it’s proven itself true for me.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

Wood, steel and hot glass... this is all I gonna say

 

[GuitarAddict]

Besides for the lighter weight, the digital amps have a lot less noise and hiss. I've gotten dirty looks from artists, when they are trying to talk to the audience. Too much of that and you won't get called back.

In Nashville, you see a lot of Katanas on Broadway, where you have to park and walk (and carry). Many of the backlines for big acts are using Tone Master Super Reverbs.

Yes I would have agreed with you in that until I bought my 0.5 watt Kowalski amp which is by far the best amp I’ve ever owned. It runs two 12ax7 preamp and an ECC82 power amp to run classA at .5 watt and is noise free. No noise at all. My Katana is more noisy. It has a line out and built in speaker load so you can run silently into an a cab sim or similar if needed.
But it is only as good as the valves you put un it. I think I’m gonna do what Rick says above and just buy a shelf load now and be set for the few years i have left. That way I can just fire it up whenever I want without worrying about running out of valves.
My wife did the same with bulbs for her gothic lights in the lounge which are not retailed in the UK anymore. I think we bought 100 of them. Where’s my calculator………

 

[jak3af3r]

In Nashville, you see a lot of Katanas on Broadway, where you have to park and walk (and carry). Many of the backlines for big acts are using Tone Master Super Reverbs.

The last time I played downtown (which was 2.5 years ago) everyone was starting to run direct through a helix, headrush, etc. The bassist in that band took my spot on guitar and he said a lot of places on Broadway aren't doing amps anymore.

I've heard lots of good things about those tone masters but haven't seen one in person to try out.

Personally, I'm a tube guy but last rehearsal we had the drummer had a quilter set up and that's the first time I've played one of those and it was surprisingly good.

I also often wonder if I'll be part of the group who sees the phase-out of tubes given that I'm under 30 and most everyone I know has some sort of digital modelling rig they use regularly.

 

[Em7]

My favorite amp of all time is analog solid-state. I owned it for 10 years before selling it to help fund the purchase of a Nextone Artist, which I recently sold as part of my current downsizing. That amp was as second generation Tech 21 Trademark 60. A lot of people do not like the drive channel on that amp, but to me, it is heaven. It is like an optimized Mark series Boogie that can cop the sweet spot of an older Mark at any volume. I just do not find tube amps to be all that useful at home. The only tube amp that I built that I played at home on a regular basis was a 5F2 Tweed Princeton circuit built using an off-the-shelf Hammond chassis. All of the other amps were just too loud by the time they opened up.

As far as to digital units, they have made it possible to have studio-quality live sound. A lot of the tone we hear on records is the result of studio post-performance processing. I have had guys ask me to build handwired JTM 45s because they want to cop the Beano tone. However, that tone is in large part the result of studio processing. With digital, that tone can be replicated live. While I have been too frugal to purchase an Axe-Fx, I was blown away the first time I heard one used in a Journey cover band. It is difficult to pull off Neal Schon's studio tones live with conventional gear. The AxeFx was able to nail those tones.

 

[KentuckyBoiledChiccan]

To each their own. I like some solid state clean channels but most overdrive sounds like ass to me. Same goes to everdrive pedals either in to solid state or tube amp. Call me a snob if you like to but I trust my ears.

 

[Em7]

It depends on what one is looking for in amp. The tube amps that sound good on their own tend to be one-trick ponies. If a tube amp does the trick one needs it do at a suitable volume level, then one is golden. However, most users of tube guitar amps today have a sizable pedal board to make up for the amp's limitations. Tube preamp overdrive sounds like buzzing bees, so that means having to crank a tube amp up to the point where the power amp goes non-linear. That is pretty darn limiting and it will get one thrown out of many venues today.

 

[GuitarAddict]

To each their own. I like some solid state clean channels but most overdrive sounds like ass to me. Same goes to everdrive pedals either in to solid state or tube amp. Call me a snob if you like to but I trust my ears.

Never plugged a pedal in to my ToneKing or Kowalski that made it sound better. Tried a few, TS9, Nobles ODR1, King of Tone Duellist and Blackstar HT Dual. The Xotic Supersweet was okay for a boost but that was still really the amp sound with a bit more ooomph.
There is something really nice and minimalist about guitar > amp > cab setup. Combo even more so. Love it.

 

[GuitarAddict]

It depends on what one is looking for in amp. The tube amps that sound good on their own tend to be one-trick ponies. If a tube amp does the trick one needs it do at a suitable volume level, then one is golden. However, most users of tube guitar amps today have a sizable pedal board to make up for the amp's limitations. Tube preamp overdrive sounds like buzzing bees, so that means having to crank a tube amp up to the point where the power amp goes non-linear. That is pretty darn limiting and it will get one thrown out of many venues today.

That’s where low power tube amps come in. 5 watts is loud enough.
I use a 0.5 watts tube amp at home. Loud enough that if I turn it up more than half way I need to put a mic up to sing through. Not loud enough to get over a drummer though. Pre amp on 1/4 power amp on 1/3 = lovely blues tone. Preamp on 1/2 = ACDC tones still at decent volume.
Best home set up I’ve had, despite valve quality becoming unreliable.

 

[GuitarJammin]

It depends on what one is looking for in amp. The tube amps that sound good on their own tend to be one-trick ponies. If a tube amp does the trick one needs it do at a suitable volume level, then one is golden. However, most users of tube guitar amps today have a sizable pedal board to make up for the amp's limitations. Tube preamp overdrive sounds like buzzing bees, so that means having to crank a tube amp up to the point where the power amp goes non-linear. That is pretty darn limiting and it will get one thrown out of many venues today.

LOL...Me last night playing my Diezel D-moll outta a 4x12 cab in a small venue.....people loving it. I'll turn down if I need to and run a 1x12 cab. One trick pony? Buzzing bees? Cranking a tube amp? Other guitarist running the Mesa Badlander 100....both of us doing just fine...nailing all different kinds of tones.

I mean if it's overdrive you are after buy the right amp. If you think your amp is a one trick pony...it could be you are the one that needs to learn more tricks, or you need to stop playing your one knobbed amp if you demand more. Guitar Volume and tone knobs are a great place to start with those tricks......oh i forgot...if you try some of those on some solid state amps you may not get the desired effect.

For what I do, solid state amps like the Katana pretty much sound bad. But hey....not everyone is as discerning about an amps response or tone. There are some terrible tube amps out there too. It all comes down to getting the right amp that meets your demands.

It all boils down to what your playing demands and what your venue is. Buy the correct amp for the job. In some cases I can see the argument for a solid state....I mean when I lived in apartments i had a little SS amp to jam on. That little Vox pathfinder 10 was great.

 

[László]

If you think your amp is a one trick pony...it could be you are the one that needs to learn more tricks, or you need to stop playing your one knobbed amp if you demand more.

I'm 100% in agreement with this.

With the volume and tone controls on my guitars, there's an infinite variety of tones. If someone can only get one tone from a tube amp, well, that's on the player.

Don't believe that? Watch this Bonamassa video:

For me, solid state and modeling amps are bullsh!t. Of course, YMMV.

There's a bloom and musicality in real tube gear that most of us in the recording business recognize and value pretty highly. Solid state and modeling gear (referring to amps here) isn't as musical. Modelers also lack the immediacy of real tube tone.

Yeah, I realize that 'musical' is hard to define. You know it when you hear it. Or not. And if not, get a solid state or modeling amp and enjoy it. If you do hear the difference real tube amps have, nothing else will do the trick for electric guitar. Simple as that.

If you're worried about finding tubes down the road, buy a bunch now.

 

[andy474x]

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I've found modern tubes to be very consistent. Consistently good or consistently not so good, but consistent nonetheless. JJ have been extremely reliable for me, I don't care for the sound of their ecc83s that comes in pretty much everything these days, but they last forever and all sound basically the same - tons of gain and muddy/blurry low end. Their ecc803s and e83cc, on the other hand, I think are fantastic, and again have been very consistent. Apparently Paul likes the 803, too, as it's the hand picked stand-in for NOS on the HDRX. JJ 6L6 and 6V6, also winners. I love the new production Mullard ecc83 and 12at7 and haven't experienced much variation in them, either.

There have been some tubes from other brands that I just stay away from based on experiences that have been the same again and again - GT, EH, they just don't turn me on.

If I can continue to source tubes like the JJ's and Mullards, I'll keep on using tube amps. Looking like a lot of JJ in my near future at the moment, but I'm not running out to buy a modeler any time soon.