Turns Out, I Really Like PRS' Nitro Finishes!

[László]

Gosh, was I ever wrong about this whole nitro thing.

I don't really understand the relationship of finish to tone; it's probably one of those unprovable things that simply comes down to a lot of anecdotal experience. But I absolutely love the way my nitro-finished PRSes sound. This includes my former Tonare, my current PS Tonare, and now my McCarty Singlecut "Hammer of the Gods" guitar.

Based on my experience with Gibsons, which most recently includes a Custom Shop 335, my impression of nitro finishes has been that they stick to me like glue. I felt this way with my '65 SG Special for years, although it finally dried after about 30 years and eventually became less sticky, and when I got the 335, I literally stuck to it where my arm rested on the top, and I had to wipe the neck down every few minutes during sessions. I hated the finish, and was thrilled with PRS' poly and V12 finishes (I actually still really like these finishes, too).

When I got my first Tonare, I thought, well, I'm going to have to get used to a sticky finish. But it wasn't sticky. I thought I must be simply lucky. When my PS model arrived, again, it wasn't sticky. I began to think PRS might be on to something. And both guitars simply sound amazing. Really. Fantastic.

Now this McCarty Singlecut I jokingly refer to as "The Hammer of the Gods" comes, and by this time I'm confident it's not going to be sticky, and that it's going to sound great. And it isn't sticky, and it does sound great.

The finish feels and looks great, and it really wears well. I can't say for sure that it's part of the tone recipe, but I suspect that it is.

I know Tag also loves this finish on his guitars, because we had a debate about it, but I was wrong. It's a great finish.

 

[Paulgshaffer]

:dancing:Another believer! It's all a part of the recipe for MOJO.

 

[László]

:dancing:Another believer! It's all a part of the recipe for MOJO.

Heheh. I got my mojo workin'.

 

[xjbebop]

I, too, have noticed the comfortable feel of the V12 finish on my recent acquisitions....
Along with all the other details of these fine instruments, just goes to show that PRS does it right...

And I really appreciate the fact that they keep pushing to make them even better....kaizen...

 

[tiboy]

I've often wondered why PRS touted the V12 while applying Nitro on their PS and many of the very high cost guitars. Nitro on my 2013 LP R9 VOS is perfect. Nitro on my 2013 SG VOS is on the sticky side. Both came out of the custom shop.

 

[Paulgshaffer]

I've often wondered why PRS touted the V12 while applying Nitro on their PS and many of the very high cost guitars. Nitro on my 2013 LP R9 VOS is perfect. Nitro on my 2013 SG VOS is on the sticky side. Both came out of the custom shop.

Nitro takes much much more time to apply correctly and plus it is slightly temperamental. It is more delicate and susceptible to damage from certian materials and changes in temperature. Poly is indestructible but essentially seals the guitar so the wood dosent breathe and some say this affects the resonance qualities of the wood and also prevents the wood from aging. Nitro and v12 both allow the wood to "breathe" but the nitro requires less time and work to apply correctly making the finish a great choice for production models.

 

[László]

Nitro takes much much more time to apply correctly and plus it is slightly temperamental. It is more delicate and susceptible to damage from certian materials and changes in temperature. Poly is indestructible but essentially seals the guitar so the wood dosent breathe and some say this affects the resonance qualities of the wood and also prevents the wood from aging. Nitro and v12 both allow the wood to "breathe" but the nitro requires less time and work to apply correctly making the finish a great choice for production models.

It's interesting that you mention this, because what I do know (which is relatively little) about nitro is this:

It's a plastic made with nitrocellulose in addition to a binder. But it's still a plastic. It does completely seal the guitar. It's not porous. So I'm at a loss to how a guitar could possibly "breathe" better with it than a different plastic that completely seals that guitar and also isn't porous. Perhaps there's an explanation? Or perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it's porous?

Second, it can't be all that difficult to use nitro; GM painted cars with nitro finishes until the early 70s, because lacquer could be polished to a gloss more easily than the alternative finishes at the time. So Cadillac, for example, used it for its darker finishes right up until the end. And all the car companies used it until the 60s when finishes that dried faster became available. Ford, for example, used enamel for a while, and then switched to various other alternatives.

But we're talking a DuPont finish that was routinely used in huge automobile factories, and not necessarily by dedicated craftspeople. The reason the industry went to non-lacquer finishes was that it didn't age well, and people didn't want their cars to look dull, etc., and it was slower-drying. It makes sense to put out more cars faster with speed drying alternatives.

So I do think it has its advantages, maybe even for tone, but I don't necessarily believe this "breathing" thing. Then again, perhaps you know something about the finish that I don't. So I'm open to ideas and further discussion.

Maybe it's a misnomer to call it "breathing." Maybe the poly finishes simply absorb more vibration, while nitro is better at transmitting it?

 

[Paulgshaffer]

It's interesting that you mention this, because what I do know (which is relatively little) about nitro is this:

It's a plastic made with nitrocellulose in addition to a binder. But it's still a plastic. It does completely seal the guitar. It's not porous. So I'm at a loss to how a guitar could possibly "breathe" better with it than a different plastic that completely seals that guitar and also isn't porous. Perhaps there's an explanation? Or perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it's porous?

Second, it can't be all that difficult to use nitro; GM painted cars with nitro finishes until the early 70s, because lacquer could be polished to a gloss more easily than the alternative finishes at the time. So Cadillac, for example, used it for its darker finishes right up until the end. And all the car companies used it until the 60s when finishes that dried faster became available. Ford, for example, used enamel for a while, and then switched to various other alternatives.

But we're talking a DuPont finish that was routinely used in huge automobile factories, and not necessarily by dedicated craftspeople. The reason the industry went to non-lacquer finishes was that it didn't age well, and people didn't want their cars to look dull, etc., and it was slower-drying. It makes sense to put out more cars faster with speed drying alternatives.

So I do think it has its advantages, maybe even for tone, but I don't necessarily believe this "breathing" thing. Then again, perhaps you know something about the finish that I don't. So I'm open to ideas and further discussion.

Maybe it's a misnomer to call it "breathing." Maybe the poly finishes simply absorb more vibration, while nitro is better at transmitting it?

I'm not totally sold on the breathing thing either but there is a difference in feel to me. Wether it's a placebo effect I dunno. My nitro guitars play and sound better. Having worked in a body shop for a number of years what I remember about nitro on cars was it was much easier to fix swirls or scratches because all you really had to do was heat the finish and it pretty much took care of itself with minimal buffing. Also nitro needs wayyyy fewer coats on a car because a body panel is already super smooth and the nitro won't "sink" into the metal like it does on a wood surface so it didn't require as much time between coats an much less sanding. Having been brave in the past I have refinished some of my other guitars to nitro using these instructions

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Finishing/Nitrocellulose_Finishing_Schedule.html

It's a *****... It requires just soooo much more time. Not all nitro is made equal either. Some have diffirent dilutions and require more coats depending to how thin or thick you want the finish to be, it even dissolves the previous coat to some degree too.

All I know is that I like it, and it smells good too!

 

[Whitecat]

I don't dislike nitro (I don't buy into the "breathing" thing, btw - it's a slab of cured wood, it's dead...) - but the fragility of it really bugs me. It's so soft & it's prone to chemical damage too easily.

V12 is the best of all worlds to me. Thin but tough.

The fact is that many "nitro" finished guitars are simply expensive, well-made guitars so of course they are likely to be great. There are very few "cheap" nitro instruments out there - I think a handful of Fender Mexico instruments have nitro-sprayed bodies, and they're around £800 now - and Gibson has some that are even less but that are not considered to be the most well-made. But for the most part, we're talking about instruments that are £2k+ - especially with PRS, only very high-end stuff gets the nitro treatment.

Good nitro finishes should never be sticky, I've learned recently. If it's sticky, it's not cured properly.

The smell is sure fun, I'll grant that!

 

[jfb]

Nitro looks and feels awesome to me. I love it. I have put it on all my builds and would do so again.

 

[László]

I don't dislike nitro (I don't buy into the "breathing" thing, btw - it's a slab of cured wood, it's dead...) - but the fragility of it really bugs me. It's so soft & it's prone to chemical damage too easily.

I love the V12, too, but I will say this -- my nitro finished PRSes are not soft. The finish really wears well, and seems very tough re: fewer swirl marks, etc.

 

[Whitecat]

I admit to not owning any nitro-finished PRS guitars, so maybe they're doing something differently, but without naming names let's just say I have a number of guitars made by a guy who used to head up Private Stock at PRS and I've had to have one refinished thanks to an errant chemical reaction with a strap/cable of all things... that sort of thing never happens with V12 or poly!

 

[Paulgshaffer]

I admit to not owning any nitro-finished PRS guitars, so maybe they're doing something differently, but without naming names let's just say I have a number of guitars made by a guy who used to head up Private Stock at PRS and I've had to have one refinished thanks to an errant chemical reaction with a strap/cable of all things... that sort of thing never happens with V12 or poly!

This is common of all nitro. Never put the guitar in the case with your strap on or leave it on to hang. Also avoid nitro coming into contact with the surgical rubber tubing on most guitar standa and hangers. I wrap a microfiber cloth around the hangars and guitar stand/racks that I have. It does have it's drawbacks but I'm okay with it!

 

[Whitecat]

This is common of all nitro.

Yes, I'm aware of this and I try to be careful but sometimes **** happens. And that's the foundation of my complaint - there are better finishes out there, but because the guitar-buying public are a pretty traditional lot it seems that the nitro mystique will persist.

Anyway, as I was saying - overall I don't dislike it, I tend to judge guitars on other merits first - but I'm a fan of progress and change as much as I suspect PRSh is, and if I were building my own, there'd be no nitro in my shop.

 

[Tag]

I have had so many of each, and it has come down that for me, and forget about feel, to my ear, Nitro just SOUNDS better. I am pretty sure that if PRS made two extremely similar sounding guitars, the only difference being the finish, I could pick out the nitro finished guitar. The V12 and poly seems to mute the tone to some degree, especially the top end. I dont think there is anyway to be 100% certain, but having so many of both, you can hear something that each finish "type" has in common. What else could it be? Its the only thing that both groups of guitars have in common. Nitro just seems to ring better, and I would LOVE to try a PRS done with varnish. Isnt that suppose to be the most toneful of all? All IMO, and YMMV, etc etc.

 

[László]

Yes, I'm aware of this and I try to be careful but sometimes **** happens. And that's the foundation of my complaint - there are better finishes out there, but because the guitar-buying public are a pretty traditional lot it seems that the nitro mystique will persist.

Anyway, as I was saying - overall I don't dislike it, I tend to judge guitars on other merits first - but I'm a fan of progress and change as much as I suspect PRSh is, and if I were building my own, there'd be no nitro in my shop.

I felt that way, exactly, before the guitars that came to me with PRS' nitro. Now, I gotta say, I like the finish. But I also know its drawbacks, and there are several.

I dont think there is anyway to be 100% certain, but having so many of both, you can hear something that each finish "type" has in common. What else could it be? Its the only thing that both groups of guitars have in common.

Yes, I have to agree, our experience with these finishes may be unscientific, anecdotal stuff, but that doesn't mean it isn't real! It's really the same with tonewood families; some say you can't hear the differences between, say, fingerboard woods. Well, of course you can, if you understand what to listen for.

As to varnish...well, that stuff is just too soft for my taste. Even Collings, who offer it, have a bunch of disclaimers on their website about it. They also don't offer it for their electric guitars.

 

[Tag]

As to varnish...well, that stuff is just too soft for my taste. Even Collings, who offer it, have a bunch of disclaimers on their website about it. They also don't offer it for their electric guitars.

Les,
Isnt varnish what all the great violins had? I ALMOST ordered my Buscarino with it, as he offers it, and agreed it may be the best for sheer tone. In the end I wimped out and had to have high gloss nitro. :redface: I think PRS should make some REAL "violin" guitars with all of the correct violin woods, semi hollow with Fholes, Spruce top, Maple neck and varnish!!!!

 

[László]

Les,
Isnt varnish what all the great violins had? I ALMOST ordered my Buscarino with it, as he offers it, and agreed it may be the best for sheer tone. In the end I wimped out and had to have high gloss nitro. :redface: I think PRS should make some REAL "violin" guitars with all of the correct violin woods, semi hollow with Fholes, Spruce top, Maple neck and varnish!!!!

Well, in the case of the classic violins, it was a different kind of varnish than would be used on guitars. In fact, much of the reddish tint we see on some of the oldest instruments is because oxblood was mixed into the binder to strengthen it. Sometimes they used eggs as binders. It's really different stuff than is used today, even on violins. Blood, eggs, and other animal materials made a good binder because of the tissues and cells that were contained in them, and of course they dry pretty hard.

One interesting (and useless) bit of information I do know is that lacquer is actually a subset of varnishes. It was originally developed as a special high gloss material in the Far East, but that's about as far as my knowledge of Chinese and Japanese antiques takes me on that, since I was more into Chinese earthenware than lacquered goods. At one point I considered collecting it, but I didn't and only wound up with a few pieces (my collector gene is somehow deficient).