Tube revival?

So, since we're on the topic and since this thread is not one that would probably go on for a long while otherwise, lets bring this up here. Assuming everyone is ok with a hijack, if not I can move this to a different thread:

Assuming you could get really good tubes now, new, quality built with warranty, and plenty of supply, tubes that sounded and lasted as well as old tubes... Meaning, you could buy a 12ax7 that sounded better than anything currently made, AND, would last like say a Telefunken or RCA Blackplate or whatever, and you could literally assume that it might be a "one and done" tube for your amp, how much would you be willing to pay for such a a tube. For simplification, lets say for a 12ax7, and then for several varieties of power tubes, like EL84, 6V6, EL34, 6L6 for now. If WE stepped up and started making these tubes and they really sounded better and lasted indefinitely, what would you be willing to pay for each?

This is always part of the discussion when the business model of making tubes comes up. Personally, if you said it was $100 per 12ax7 I'd probably be out... or might just buy one or two, rather than 3-5 for each amp. For $50 I'd probably start buying some now.

For power tubes, I'd probably roll in at $50 or for small tubes (EL84 and 6V6) and $75 for EL34 and 6L6. I might stretch both of those a bit, but I'd probably go in a bit slower (fewer at a time) and make sure they really sounded better.

I tend to agree with those saying that a quality built in USA, great sounding and lasting tube wouldn't sell very well of a 12ax7 got much over $75. And this is part of the issue... A) I don't want to spend $850 to retube the Archon, B) if they sell me great sounding tubes that last forever, I never by them again so they have completely satisfied my demand for their product (for at least that amp) with 1 sale. So no buying more every few years, except of course for other amps. It's a catch 22... too much, and I won't buy them to start with, or maybe slowly a few at a time, but if the product is too good, I may never buy again so no repeat biz.

What say ye?
 
Hmmm...
I've been happy with the Ruby and Winged C tubes I've used. Never tried getting high end NOS and the like. I'd never thought about a "one and done" with a tube because I just saw them as being a consumable.
So I guess I'd be happy with that or better quality for that or a bit higher price.
 
I saw Andy Fuchs posting on TGP about the tube supply shortage being… a bit “alarmist”. Dude says he’s got a line on enough tubes to keep production up, enough to continue working on new designs, and enough to possibly begin selling tubes.

So… ya know… maybe don’t think too hard about trading your amps in on a modeler or a Crate SS stack.
 
DreamTheaterRules said:
So, since we're on the topic and since this thread is not one that would probably go on for a long while otherwise, lets bring this up here. Assuming everyone is ok with a hijack, if not I can move this to a different thread:

Assuming you could get really good tubes now, new, quality built with warranty, and plenty of supply, tubes that sounded and lasted as well as old tubes... Meaning, you could buy a 12ax7 that sounded better than anything currently made, AND, would last like say a Telefunken or RCA Blackplate or whatever, and you could literally assume that it might be a "one and done" tube for your amp, how much would you be willing to pay for such a a tube. For simplification, lets say for a 12ax7, and then for several varieties of power tubes, like EL84, 6V6, EL34, 6L6 for now. If WE stepped up and started making these tubes and they really sounded better and lasted indefinitely, what would you be willing to pay for each?

This is always part of the discussion when the business model of making tubes comes up. Personally, if you said it was $100 per 12ax7 I'd probably be out... or might just buy one or two, rather than 3-5 for each amp. For $50 I'd probably start buying some now.

For power tubes, I'd probably roll in at $50 or for small tubes (EL84 and 6V6) and $75 for EL34 and 6L6. I might stretch both of those a bit, but I'd probably go in a bit slower (fewer at a time) and make sure they really sounded better.

I tend to agree with those saying that a quality built in USA, great sounding and lasting tube wouldn't sell very well of a 12ax7 got much over $75. And this is part of the issue... A) I don't want to spend $850 to retube the Archon, B) if they sell me great sounding tubes that last forever, I never by them again so they have completely satisfied my demand for their product (for at least that amp) with 1 sale. So no buying more every few years, except of course for other amps. It's a catch 22... too much, and I won't buy them to start with, or maybe slowly a few at a time, but if the product is too good, I may never buy again so no repeat biz.

What say ye?
Click to expand...

$50 per 12AX7 or 5751 and I'll buy 1 for V1. If I think it sounds better I'll retube the rest of the Archon with them. If they're $100 each I will probably stick with the JJs in there for a few more years until I finish grad school, get a better job, and then I'll reevaluate my options. At $75 I'm not sure. Maybe still 1 for V1.

Even at $50 for a preamp tube and $75 for a power amp tube, it's $600 to retube a 100W Archon. That's a lot...

It will be even more for the MT100. I think Mark's prototype has 8 preamp tubes in it.
 
If we're having a tube revival, we're going to need a preacher!

I nominate Brother Les. He will bring the full tube gospel as God intended, not having been tainted by solid state, modelers and the like.

Plus he'd look good in a big robe like the pope wears.
 
DreamTheaterRules said:
So, since we're on the topic and since this thread is not one that would probably go on for a long while otherwise, lets bring this up here. Assuming everyone is ok with a hijack, if not I can move this to a different thread:

Assuming you could get really good tubes now, new, quality built with warranty, and plenty of supply, tubes that sounded and lasted as well as old tubes... Meaning, you could buy a 12ax7 that sounded better than anything currently made, AND, would last like say a Telefunken or RCA Blackplate or whatever, and you could literally assume that it might be a "one and done" tube for your amp, how much would you be willing to pay for such a a tube. For simplification, lets say for a 12ax7, and then for several varieties of power tubes, like EL84, 6V6, EL34, 6L6 for now. If WE stepped up and started making these tubes and they really sounded better and lasted indefinitely, what would you be willing to pay for each?

This is always part of the discussion when the business model of making tubes comes up. Personally, if you said it was $100 per 12ax7 I'd probably be out... or might just buy one or two, rather than 3-5 for each amp. For $50 I'd probably start buying some now.

For power tubes, I'd probably roll in at $50 or for small tubes (EL84 and 6V6) and $75 for EL34 and 6L6. I might stretch both of those a bit, but I'd probably go in a bit slower (fewer at a time) and make sure they really sounded better.

I tend to agree with those saying that a quality built in USA, great sounding and lasting tube wouldn't sell very well of a 12ax7 got much over $75. And this is part of the issue... A) I don't want to spend $850 to retube the Archon, B) if they sell me great sounding tubes that last forever, I never by them again so they have completely satisfied my demand for their product (for at least that amp) with 1 sale. So no buying more every few years, except of course for other amps. It's a catch 22... too much, and I won't buy them to start with, or maybe slowly a few at a time, but if the product is too good, I may never buy again so no repeat biz.

What say ye?
Click to expand...
Here's my take:

1. good idea.

Here's what I do currently. Please note that this is not a prescription for anyone else. This is only my experience and the results I've gotten:

1. Preamp tubes - Preamp tubes last for a very long time if you're taking decent care of your amp. I've had a lot fewer problems with NOS; I've only had one go microphonic in 20 years. Given the number of amps I've had, that's a LOT of tubes.

Because my studio is crucial to my livelihood, having amps that are dead quiet at idle is super-important. I've paid a lot of attention to proper grounding, proper cable runs, etc. Early on I had a tech in with an oscilloscope to help sort out where the problems were, so that's a factor, but anyone can pay attention to this stuff and tremendously reduce their noise floor if they learn a little bit about the topic.

The amps are usually powered through a Fruman P-1800 PFR power supply with superior MOVs and auto shutdown, line filters, etc., and stores 45 A of extra power for peak bursts called for when big transients hit the amp that most wall sockets don't put out as fast.

But even just plugged into the wall, my amps are so quiet when the amps are on and the volume is turned up that you wouldn't even know they're on. Two of my amps have fans, and there's only the acoustic fan noise that might let you know they're on. On the Lone Star the fan can be switched off for recording, but I usually just leave it on.

Some tube vendors will test tubes for microphonics and noise. I always order mine tested.

I buy only NOS preamp tubes, and have re-tubed all of my amps with them. There are NOS RCA and GE tubes in my Mesas, and Mullards and Brimars in my PRS amps, though I found that Siemens preamp tubes are also great sounding.

I generally pay in the $100-200 range for each preamp tube. The legendary Mullard 12AX7s that are in my HXDA are on the higher end in price, the Siemens on the lower end. That may seem like a lot, but they solve a lot of issues and sound great. Worth it with a fine amp.

The HXDA has Mullards. The DG30 came from the factory with Brimar. One Brimar went bad early on, and my dealer got PRS to replace it (again, this is the only NOS tube I've ever had to replace in 20 years). I have over 8 years on these amps' tubes, and they still sound amazing.

2. Output tubes - Output tubes wear, but good ones last a lot longer than most people think. That of course depends on a lot of factors, including how long you're using them, how loudly you play, the AC voltage in your area, how they're biased, etc.

I've got NOS EL84Ms in my DG30. They came with the amp. I've got 8 years on them so far. The amp sounds great, no issues, but I have a set of backups.

I installed NOS Siemens EL34s in the HXDA after one of the Winged Cs that came in the amp blew. Doug Sewell had mentioned the Siemens when I met him (this was before the Winged C went), so that's what I got. These are beautiful sounding tubes, tighter and less flabby in the low end than the Winged Cs. I installed them I'd guess 5 years ago. No issues. They sound great and are going strong after 5 years.

The Lone Star had a serious problem with output tube rattle. It's a 100 Watt combo, so this was no surprise. For a while I used the stock tubes with tube damping rings from Eurotubes that solved the rattle. Tube rattle is caused by crappy manufacture. NOS generally do not rattle.

However, I completely improved the tone of this amp, and on top of that did it with no rattle, by using new-manufacture Telefunken 6L6s. These are JJs that have been hand selected and cryogenically treated. JJs are Slovakian tubes. Cryogenics is a process to make metals stiffer. It was invented by the industry, not by audio geeks. I was going to try the stock JJs, but figured for an extra ten bucks a tube, I'd try these instead.

First, zero rattle. None. No tube damping rings needed. Maybe the cryogenics helped, and maybe it's just how the tubes were selected. I actually don't care why, the results speak for themselves.

These sound as big and open as any NOS 6L6 I've ever used, including RCAs. That's pretty freaking good.

I'm ordering a set of these for the Fillmore as well; I think it came with Mesa branded JJs, but WTF. Tone matters!
 
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