Trem not staying in tune when using the bar + PRS frustration talk :(


What is your goal here?

Setting my frustrations aside with this guitar, I've still managed to play the hell out of it for years and record many hours of music with it. It has it's problems and I've got to fix them and it isn't always that easy, years ago I felt like the techs weren't really doing a good job, then more recently when I felt I was way in over my head, I brought it to an older experienced tech for the first time in years, and guess what, I left dissapointed again and now I have noisy volume pots because of it, so yeah I mess things up and learn from it, how the hell else am I going to learn to do all of this stuff by myself?

If you're not happy about my complaining I guess I understand but this guitar has given me waaaaaay more work than any of my other guitars so yeah, I'm gonna complain if I feel like it.
 
It’s not a question of not liking complaining. I have the same guitar with the original tremolo, in year #4 without problems. I did the following.........Hipshot locking tuners, PRS USA nut, new trem springs (the less expensive slightly shorter ones) and it stays in tune. Being a meathead, it has USA Mira pickups and electronics. It’s a keeper with no issues. The goal is to solve the problem.
 
I have a 2018 SE Tremonti, with original bridge and nut. It wouldn't stay in tune with whammy use, so I installed Grover locking tuners, and while installing, I noticed that the bridge mounting screws were uneven, so I used a small Allen wrench to check the gap, and set them all even. I used some nut sauce on nut and bridge screws while I was at it. Now it has rock solid tuning stability, even with very extreme whammy use. In retrospect, I might not really need the locking tuners, but I like them for easier string changes if nothing else.
 
^ I’m among the people who believe locking tuners don’t contribute one iota to tuning stability. Bridge and nut are usually the culprits. So, I’m inclined in agreeing with you in that you’d have gotten stability just with what you did to the bridge.

Op, since you are messing with the pivot screws, it’s imperative that you get them absolutely right. Fractions of a mm off and your guitar won’t stay in tune. Widen the slots of the nut. Wrap each string in a thin sandpaper to use it as tools if you don’t have access to nut files. Just don’t put pressure down, as you don’t want to change the height of the strings at the nut. You won’t need to widen too much either, just enough to accommodate the wider gauges without causing any binding at the nut. To apply graphite at the nut use a mechanical pencil. I’ve used all sorts of things before, but graphite applied with a mechanical pensil has been the best approuch even on guitars that are notorious for going out of tune. My Gibson guitars are just as stable as any of my PRSi using the graphite method and making sure the slots weren’t pinching the strings.

As for your rant, I understand the frustration. However, it is clearly a setup issue, not an inherent issue with the guitar itself. You put a thicker string gauge on that guitar, which in turn requires you to make some adjustments. You changed the bridge, which also requires you to set up the new bridge properly. Adjusting the pivot screws on that bridge requires a lot of patience and precision. When I say I understand the frustration is because I’ve been there with a CE24 and ended up regretting selling the guitar. It was clearly a bridge setup issue or possibly the bridge still needed it’s breaking in period. Which by the way, since your replacement bridge is brand new it might also need some time to break it in. Again this is not a PRS thing, as every strat I’ve ever had needed to be broken in as well.
 
US SE guitars, at least those of recent vintage, come with .009's and that's what the nut slots are cut for. If you've now got .011's on it and have never widened the slots that's almost certainly part of the problem, probably the major part. SE nuts seem to be "draggy" as a regular thing in any case.

For what it's worth, I watched John Mann put the vibrato on my SE and he really gave the springs (not strings!) a good stretch while doing it, noting that it made a difference.

Apart from that, nothing is more than 99.X % perfect and knife edges can only be so sharp even out of the box. No matter how good your vibrato is, stablity is still a bit proportional to how far you push the thing. If all you're doing is nice little shimmers it should be on the money. If you do radical hell bombing with it may well not come back exactly back to zero instantly. If you just tap the handle, though, on a good one it will come the rest of the way home. I think in the real world that's about the best you can expect.
 
It’s not a question of not liking complaining. I have the same guitar with the original tremolo, in year #4 without problems. I did the following.........Hipshot locking tuners, PRS USA nut, new trem springs (the less expensive slightly shorter ones) and it stays in tune. Being a meathead, it has USA Mira pickups and electronics. It’s a keeper with no issues. The goal is to solve the problem.

I have a 2018 SE Tremonti, with original bridge and nut. It wouldn't stay in tune with whammy use, so I installed Grover locking tuners, and while installing, I noticed that the bridge mounting screws were uneven, so I used a small Allen wrench to check the gap, and set them all even. I used some nut sauce on nut and bridge screws while I was at it. Now it has rock solid tuning stability, even with very extreme whammy use. In retrospect, I might not really need the locking tuners, but I like them for easier string changes if nothing else.

I had a golden era like that with this guitar too, where it would just do everything I want and never fall out of tune, and I would practice for hours and record every day without a single worry, that was when I installed the locking tuners and USA nut, and basically stuck to using 10-46. But things wear out and you have to change them, first I couldn't use the trem any more because the screw that held the bar went missing, then the pickup switch started acting up, and finally an intonation screw on the bridge went out so I went and bought a new bridge. No matter what I do I think I will have to cut up the nut anyways, because things like really fast metal rythm techniques are way easier on 10-52 than on 10-46, and I'm even thinking of going 11-56 ideally. If I can make this work with a trem that'd be wonderful.

^ I’m among the people who believe locking tuners don’t contribute one iota to tuning stability. Bridge and nut are usually the culprits. So, I’m inclined in agreeing with you in that you’d have gotten stability just with what you did to the bridge.

Op, since you are messing with the pivot screws, it’s imperative that you get them absolutely right. Fractions of a mm off and your guitar won’t stay in tune. Widen the slots of the nut. Wrap each string in a thin sandpaper to use it as tools if you don’t have access to nut files. Just don’t put pressure down, as you don’t want to change the height of the strings at the nut. You won’t need to widen too much either, just enough to accommodate the wider gauges without causing any binding at the nut. To apply graphite at the nut use a mechanical pencil. I’ve used all sorts of things before, but graphite applied with a mechanical pensil has been the best approuch even on guitars that are notorious for going out of tune. My Gibson guitars are just as stable as any of my PRSi using the graphite method and making sure the slots weren’t pinching the strings.

As for your rant, I understand the frustration. However, it is clearly a setup issue, not an inherent issue with the guitar itself. You put a thicker string gauge on that guitar, which in turn requires you to make some adjustments. You changed the bridge, which also requires you to set up the new bridge properly. Adjusting the pivot screws on that bridge requires a lot of patience and precision. When I say I understand the frustration is because I’ve been there with a CE24 and ended up regretting selling the guitar. It was clearly a bridge setup issue or possibly the bridge still needed it’s breaking in period. Which by the way, since your replacement bridge is brand new it might also need some time to break it in. Again this is not a PRS thing, as every strat I’ve ever had needed to be broken in as well.

Thanks, I will take your mechanical pencil advice. So I've gotta buy some stuff, keep trying to align those screws better and widen those nut slots.
 
I wouls also get rid of the tremelno claw and put the stock parts back in. Or at least drill proper holes for the screws so that they are not crooked. Those crooked screws dont’t seem solid, and they could be moving/flexing and messing with the tuning stability.
 
+1, was going to say the same but didn’t want to risk the sensitivity.

I wouls also get rid of the tremelno claw and put the stock parts back in. Or at least drill proper holes for the screws so that they are not crooked. Those crooked screws dont’t seem solid, and they could be moving/flexing and messing with the tuning stability.
 
tremelno claw and put the stock parts back in.
Well, maybe, at this point. Again, John Mann put the vibrato in my CU24, and he left the original claw and screws in. He said the included ones are really only if you're starting from scratch. That said, as long as the new ones are in it shouldn't make a difference as long as they're solid. Crooked claw screws don't matter as long as the claw doesn't move.
 
The pull on the trem claw screws from the spring/string tension, will pull those crooked screws sideways, more so with whammy use, therfore the claw can indeed move. The screws are not as strong when pulled from the side as they are when pulled straight on, like they were designed. Plus, not as much of the screw is in the hole with the thicker tremelno claw, so even more likely that they can move when installed crooked.
 
The pull on the trem claw screws from the spring/string tension, will pull those crooked screws sideways, more so with whammy use, therfore the claw can indeed move. The screws are not as strong when pulled from the side as they are when pulled straight on, like they were designed. Plus, not as much of the screw is in the hole with the thicker tremelno claw, so even more likely that they can move when installed crooked.
All true Straight is best. However, at this point doing anymore screwing/unscrewing than has already been done risks weakening the wood even more, so IF it's solid as it is I would leave it alone. If not then of course you do what you have to do.
 
Okay then! ..final update, did some work on my guitar today,

I checked the bridge for damage and there wasn't any, the high E is a bit worn but it was worse in my memory than it actually is,

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Aligned the screws again

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Set up the old claw, I hate to say it, but the other guy was kinda right, in one of my threads that he linked, I actually explained that when I ran into the Tremol-no problem, I brought it to the older tech, who was working in a store that was actually a PRS dealer, I mentioned he would have to drill, but he didn't, just installed it crooked like that, set up volume pots that are noisy, and happily took 50 bucks. The crooked screws thing has been sketchy as ****.

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Fixed the saddles

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One last shot of the screws

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Anyway..it's late, I still have a bunch of stuff to do to it tomorrow, like intonate, balance the pickups, etc. Not sure if I'll smash out the nut and put in a new one just in case, we'll see. But yeah I'm buying another guitar for my extreme metal needs, already have my eyes on a really cool one.

All right then, I'm out of here.
 
Looks like good progress. Good luck.

Thanks!

Okay, I thought I was gonna piss off for good but today just for the sake of it I decided to change the nut since I had some spare new ones, gotta order some more now. Not gonna lie at first I was scared that younger me had super-glued the **** out of it but that wasn't the case, removing it was very easy.

Old nut

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New nut

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New nut in, used softer white glue this time (don't worry I cleaned that excess glue off)

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So you can really see a difference, especially with the angles inside the nut slots, this old nut was a PRS USA nut that I used to replace the stock one nearly 4 years ago, the new one came in the same package. I am not going to cut the slots since I am using 10-46 and I don't think I need it, I just left it be 4 years ago with the same setup except for the bridge and it just worked! So yeah hopefully this is the last update!
 
Excellent!
It's not surprising, though. If you go through all the posts where folks complain about tuning stability/vibrato woes it seems like it almost always turns out that the nut is at the bottom of it.
 
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