Trem not staying in tune when using the bar + PRS frustration talk :(

[VStratto Music]

Boys and girls, welcome to chapter #9999 of my PRS (SE) guitar headaches,

In this one, it's been months since I've installed the 2000NOS trem, now shortly after installing the bridge I Tremol-no'd it since I was recording and I appreciated the extra tuning stability since I'm home-studio-struck and hearing something layered a cent of out tune feels like getting slapped in the face (joking).

Well I was done with that and felt like making my playing a bit more artsy, so yesterday I removed the Tremol-no and used the regular claw setup, put some new 11s in, stretched, and they fell out of tune when using the trem, figured maybe it was the nut since the guitar likes 10s so I lubed up the nut, the saddles and the trem pivot screws, put some 10s, streched, and same thing, better, but same thing, especially when I pushed the trem up, all the strings would go sharp, when pushing the trem down, they would go flat, sharp, or stay in tune at random. I tried doing it softly and aggressively and results were pretty random.

So I checked the bridge, it was 1,5mm parallel off the body on both sides, checked the 6 pivot screws, checked the knife edge and the high e was a little bit worn but nothing else, lined them up again with the feeler gauge technique just in case, restringed and retuned again, same thing.

I ended up just reinstalling the Tremol-no, actually the bastard snapped out the guitar shaft while I was tuning up and balancing the guitar trem to float perpendicularly, that was quite a scare.

You know, funny enough, the factory SE trem held the tuning rock steady (after installing the USA nut and locking tuners) even though it had been set up badly and was sitting crooked for 1 year or 2, but I did have to replace it because the screw that held the trem bar went missing and 1 intonation screw got messed up beyond adjustment.

Any extra ideas suggesting what to do? There's no PRS techs around here and I already emailed John Mann.

Also I'm sorry boys but I'm going to unload some frustration talk here, apologies in advance; I'm never buying a PRS again, and not because it doesn't play or sound good, it's the best guitar I've eved had probably, but I'm a young broke guy living in Spain with a DIY mentality that I've developed over the years and this has just been super frustrating, out the factory it was horrible, the bridge was super high, it fell out of tune like crazy, can't use thicker string gauges, but it was my dream guitar so I just kept working and improving it, locking tuners, USA nut, etc, etc,

But a lot of these parts are very expensive if you want the PRS stuff, not to mention it's difficult to get any parts that will fit your guitar because it's so special, and if I want to order quality parts from the US, the bastards in customs charge me 100€ extra for a package that's really small. And I play the hell out of this guitar all the time, and things keep wearing out and breaking and I keep having to replace stuff. And good luck trying to find a tech that even knows what he's doing with a PRS bridge around here.

Man, next time I'm getting a generic superstrat, those just look a lot easier to deal with in terms of repair and DIY, I already have one of those but it's an 8 string, I have to get me a new hardtail 6 string to replace my PRS as main guitar.

Thanks for reading, have a good day!

 

[shimmilou]

.....You know, funny enough, the factory SE trem held the tuning rock steady (after installing the USA nut and locking tuners) even though it had been set up badly and was sitting crooked for 1 year or 2, but I did have to replace it because the screw that held the trem bar went missing and 1 intonation screw got messed up beyond adjustment.

Any extra ideas suggesting what to do?.....

.......I'm never buying a PRS again, and not because it doesn't play or sound good, it's the best guitar I've eved had probably, but I'm a young broke guy living in Spain with a DIY mentality....

Hmmm, don’t want to sound like captain obvious, but maybe you’re not a DIY kind of guy when it comes to guitars.

 

[Rider1260]

Sorry about your issues with your guitar.
I will make some points

Any decent luther can work on a PRS guitar , there is nothing magical about setting them up. ( See YouTube )

If your guitar was holding tune with the stock SE PRS bridge then something is set up incorrectly after you changed the bridge.

You mentioned a worn pivot point on you bridge how did that happen ? its not easy to do that.

Sound to me like your bridge is not riding properly on the knife edges and screw slots.

I even installed a Mann Bridge on my MIM Strat and it is now rock solid tuning wise.

If we are to help post some pictures of your set up.

 

[dogrocketp]

2 questions.....did you have the slots on the nut set professionally for your string gauge, or did you do it yourself? Did you install and adjust the bridge with the strings at full pitch? If you did, uh-oh. It’s easy to blame the guitar, but you ca’t tune a Ferrari the same way as an Opel.

 

[VStratto Music]

Hmmm, don’t want to sound like captain obvious, but maybe you’re not a DIY kind of guy when it comes to guitars.

I am, you live, you **** up, and you learn, if you did all of your set ups perfectly from day 1 then lucky you I guess. Every time I have taken a guitar to a tech, not a professional one since I don't have the money for that, they have left it with high action, or tuned it in a certain way or put a certain string gauge so that when I use what I want to use, the setup falls apart.

Sorry about your issues with your guitar.
I will make some points

Any decent luther can work on a PRS guitar , there is nothing magical about setting them up. ( See YouTube )

If your guitar was holding tune with the stock SE PRS bridge then something is set up incorrectly after you changed the bridge.

You mentioned a worn pivot point on you bridge how did that happen ? its not easy to do that.

Sound to me like your bridge is not riding properly on the knife edges and screw slots.

I even installed a Mann Bridge on my MIM Strat and it is now rock solid tuning wise.

If we are to help post some pictures of your set up.

Okay then, let's do some pics;

2000NOS floating perpendicularly to the body

2000NOS sitting on the 6 pivot screws as set up right now

2000NOS from the back, looking at this picture I realize I have to straighten up the saddles, since they were set up for 10-52, if anything doesn't look right sometimes I will let it be as long as the action is 1,5mm 12th fret on all strings.

The nut holding 10-52 strings, trussrod cover crooked because USA nut was not a drop in, leaving a bit of wood exposed from the original

The Tremol-no in place

The old SE bridge after 4 years of use

Knife edge wear on the old bridge

So I did not take out the 2000NOS to show the wear on the high E since I want to leave the 6 screws alone as much as I can, but to compare it to the SE bridge, on the worn SE bridge if you touch the worn hole you can feel a little bump, on the 2000NOS there is no bump, the wear is only visual.

2 questions.....did you have the slots on the nut set professionally for your string gauge, or did you do it yourself? Did you install and adjust the bridge with the strings at full pitch? If you did, uh-oh. It’s easy to blame the guitar, but you ca’t tune a Ferrari the same way as an Opel.

I didn't have the slots on the nut set up at all, as far as I know, the PRS USA nuts are cut for regular 10s and that's what I've been using for most of this guitar's life, for recording I did 10-52 but I did that with the Tremol-no so those never saw any action except when tuning, and that never gave me any problems. Obviously I did not install and adjust the bridge with strings on, it says everywhere not to do that, I did everything exactly as instructed.

 

[vchizzle]

If the nut slots weren't done, that's your problem. You can't increase string sizes and expect it to work properly. It gets recommended to everyone with a trem that has tuning issues. Even using stock 10's it might need some minor massaging. Proper nut files are what you need. Those will cost you more than taking it to a tech to have the nut worked on. It's hard to find files small enough for the plain strings unless they are luthier files. https://www.stewmac.com/SiteSearch/?search=nut files

 

[VStratto Music]

If the nut slots weren't done, that's your problem. You can't increase string sizes and expect it to work properly. It gets recommended to everyone with a trem that has tuning issues. Even using stock 10's it might need some minor massaging. Proper nut files are what you need. Those will cost you more than taking it to a tech to have the nut worked on. It's hard to find files small enough for the plain strings unless they are luthier files. https://www.stewmac.com/SiteSearch/?search=nut files

Hmm maybe, what's strange is that this wasn't a problem with the SE bridge as far I remember, there's no way I'm buying from Stewmac because customs charged me almost 90€ for the 2000NOS which was a really small box, I've had my eye on the Ibanez nut filing kit for a while, I hope they still have that on Thomann, maybe I can buy that when I start working again. Part of me thinks maybe the bridge acts like this because I haven't used the trem much compared to the SE one, maybe I should divebomb the crap out of it for a while and see if it just needs some breaking in or what.

 

[jvin248]

.

90% of tuning issues are from upsizing strings and changing nuts 'fer toanz' .. you are in a risky area, proceed with caution. It's not the bridge or the tuners.

Go to the hardware store and buy a 'welding tip cleaner kit' which are wire files -- it will be under $10. Use the size appropriate for your strings and cut the slots. Cutting slots is a skill or you'll end up with problems so be careful -- highest point is on the fretboard side, don't go lower than fretting the third fret and slipping a couple sheets of paper under the first fret. Too high of slots and you'll go out of tune fretting the first few frets while playing. Slots not tipped low on the headstock side will create a 'sitar sound' when playing open strings. Watch youtube videos on setting up nuts.

While at the hardware store buy dry graphite 'lock lube' to put in the nut slots and saddles and pivot points. Don't use greases as they attract and retain dirt that will grip and grind.

.

 

[Emmanuel]

Sorry for the tuning issues.
Just an idea: even though you mentioned stretching the strings, please read this: https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/how_to_prevent_tuning_troubles
in addition, please try a set of 10s and try a nut lubricant like this one #big bend nut sauce#.
Divebomb will not help a lot. PRS tremolos are not for crazy divebomb stuff. For that, use Floyd Rose.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

PRS tremolos are not for crazy divebomb stuff.

Somebody forgot to tell me that. Been doing just fine with them for that since 1993.

 

[jxe]

sometimes sandpaper can work to widen a slot.

whoa that se trem is wore out!

 

[Emmanuel]

Somebody forgot to tell me that. Been doing just fine with them for that since 1993.

it's never too late ;-)

 

[VStratto Music]

.

90% of tuning issues are from upsizing strings and changing nuts 'fer toanz' .. you are in a risky area, proceed with caution. It's not the bridge or the tuners.

Go to the hardware store and buy a 'welding tip cleaner kit' which are wire files -- it will be under $10. Use the size appropriate for your strings and cut the slots. Cutting slots is a skill or you'll end up with problems so be careful -- highest point is on the fretboard side, don't go lower than fretting the third fret and slipping a couple sheets of paper under the first fret. Too high of slots and you'll go out of tune fretting the first few frets while playing. Slots not tipped low on the headstock side will create a 'sitar sound' when playing open strings. Watch youtube videos on setting up nuts.

While at the hardware store buy dry graphite 'lock lube' to put in the nut slots and saddles and pivot points. Don't use greases as they attract and retain dirt that will grip and grind.

.

Okay, thanks, I do remember reading some info like that a long time ago on a different website, thank god if I mess up I have a bunch of PRS guitar nuts laying around here so I can try again, and those aren't so expensive and they are available in europe. I have never tried graphite lube, but I guess I will have to.

Sorry for the tuning issues.
Just an idea: even though you mentioned stretching the strings, please read this: https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/how_to_prevent_tuning_troubles
in addition, please try a set of 10s and try a nut lubricant like this one #big bend nut sauce#.
Divebomb will not help a lot. PRS tremolos are not for crazy divebomb stuff. For that, use Floyd Rose.

Thanks, I did check out that exact page yesterday and the info about checking how the string is sitting in the nut is new to me, I hope I can put that to good use, and yesterday I did try a set of regular 10s before locking down the bridge again with 10-52s, and I did apply BBs nut sauce on the bridge, saddles and knife edge just in case, it improved but the problem was still there. 1 syringe of that lubricant has lasted me for around 4 years but now I've nearly run out of it so I try to use as little of it as possible, I'll have to order some again really soon, it's really good stuff.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

it's never too late ;-)

It is for me, I ruined all my Allen wrenches using them as weed pokers.

 

[alantig]

It is for me, I ruined all my Allen wrenches using them as weed pokers.

Should have bought a Weasel. Seems like it would be more efficient than using an Allen wrench on weeds.

 

[dogrocketp]

I’m a dive bomber also, and find that the trem stays in tune very well, regardless of the model. OP, are you adjusting the trem pivot screws under full tension? Judging from the elliptical holes, it looks like you might be. That is an absolute no-no, and will ruin the trem from staying in tune. If you look at the standard PRS 10 gauge strings, your set is heavier on the lower 3 strings. I hope you’re not assuming that everything’s predone to fit your guitar correctly. The nut slots still need to be done. Use a magic marker on the edge of the nut slot before a new one is installed, it’ll hide the shortness. The nut is about the only thing I won’t do myself, because it can make or break the intonation. That’s about a $40 job in the USA. Do everything else first, and then take it in to a reputable guy, not a 21 year old in a chain store. Above all, it’s not the guitar. This isn’t an F or a G guitar, so you can’t work on it the same way. My younger son and his friends all have core guitars bought cheap. Why? Various seller tried to DIY and screwed them up. I bought them for less then half price and fixed them myself, except for the nuts. Then the guys got first rate guitars.

 

[VStratto Music]

I’m a dive bomber also, and find that the trem stays in tune very well, regardless of the model. OP, are you adjusting the trem pivot screws under full tension? Judging from the elliptical holes, it looks like you might be. That is an absolute no-no, and will ruin the trem from staying in tune. If you look at the standard PRS 10 gauge strings, your set is heavier on the lower 3 strings. I hope you’re not assuming that everything’s predone to fit your guitar correctly. The nut slots still need to be done. Use a magic marker on the edge of the nut slot before a new one is installed, it’ll hide the shortness. The nut is about the only thing I won’t do myself, because it can make or break the intonation. That’s about a $40 job in the USA. Do everything else first, and then take it in to a reputable guy, not a 21 year old in a chain store. Above all, it’s not the guitar. This isn’t an F or a G guitar, so you can’t work on it the same way. My younger son and his friends all have core guitars bought cheap. Why? Various seller tried to DIY and screwed them up. I bought them for less then half price and fixed them myself, except for the nuts. Then the guy said got first rate guitars.

Hey man,

Obviously I did not install and adjust the bridge with strings on, it says everywhere not to do that, I did everything exactly as instructed.

!!!!!

Not only did I remove the strings every time I made an adjustment, I removed the springs and everything else too. This is so obvious, hell even 4 years ago when I was 17 and the guitar had the stock bridge I still did not do that. The bridge has always been under 0 tension when doing adjustments. And like I said above, yesterday, before restringing it back to 10-52, I tried this with regular 11-49s then just in case 10-46s, stretched both of them too, so the problem I'm reporting still happens with regular 10s.

 

[bodia]

No wraps of the string around the pole, correct?

 

[VStratto Music]

No wraps of the string around the pole, correct?

No,

But some tuner poles without the strings, can wiggle a tiny bit in their place, I don't know if that's something I should be concerned about.

 

[VStratto Music]

Okay, let's get this from a different angle, since everything seems to be fine with my guitar, except the nut that's not been cut.

What should be my expectations from this trem after let's say a deep divebomb? Usually when recording I get my guitar tuned as accurate to pitch as possible, I will do a divebomb and the strings will come back to tune more or less 3-6 cents off, would you find that acceptable? Because for example, as you hear it, the guitar on it's own will sound in tune after the divebomb but if you have the rest of the guitar layers come in, you can hear it's not 100% in tune, it's a slightly uncomfortable feeling. In the studio you can retune as many times as you like, but what about live, how would you settle for less than perfect?

Let's do an experiment, tune your guitar 100% to pitch with a tuner that allows you catch small diferences, do a divebomb, and check your tuning afterwards, if your guitar has an uproot trem like mine, pull it back a bit, and check again.

Maybe I'm being too perfectionst and guitars with trems are not for me?