Treble bleed question

Discussion in 'Electric Instruments' started by GavQuinn, Apr 27, 2019.

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  1. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    I’m convinced that the treble bleed cap makes a difference, even with the volume at 10.

    It’s wired to the input and the output.

    Discuss?
     
  2. Rider1260

    Rider1260 New Member

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    Everything "can" make a difference. There is tolerance difference between Pots, there is resistance difference in wire.
    Anything that is part of a circuit can have a sonic impact.
    That is part of the reason no two guitars sound 100% alike
    On my pedals I did an 11 mod to the Vol pot ( not my idea just borrowed it ) that takes the pot out of the circuit giving you extra output.
    As far as the treble bleed goes can you hear the difference when everything is at 10 ? , very possible but hard to test.
     
  3. shimmilou

    shimmilou Established in 1963

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    I can hear a difference with the treble bleed, keeping the clarity when lowering the volume.

    But with the volume at 10, the cap is shorted, so it will have no affect on the tone.
     
  4. trojanhov

    trojanhov New Member

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    Popcorn..... just bought a soldering kit and some 180pF ceramic caps for my Stripped 58
     
  5. littlebadboy

    littlebadboy New Member

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    I had one in another guitar. I didn't like it. It sounded weird to me. There was a sudden dip in volume towards 0
    "0", or maybe it's the "tonal illusion" caused by the circuit. I liked the tone options as you roll down the volume better and finishing it up with tone pot. But, that's just my opinion.

    For me, the best simple mod was a no-load option on the tone pot.
     
  6. shimmilou

    shimmilou Established in 1963

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    That's cool trojanhov. I was thinking of using mica instead of ceramic.
     
  7. jvin248

    jvin248 New Member

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    .

    Most of the 'didn't like it' is due to incorrect sizing of the parts involved. It should be 'transparent' when sized right. The popular alternative is '50s wiring' which I've found to be a big problem as the volume changes the tone and the tone changes the volume.

    Here is a detailed discussion of the types and values you may want to try
    http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5317/treble-bleed-circuit



    .
     
  8. Tone-y

    Tone-y New Member

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    I mention 'treble bleed' quite a lot in posts here. I put it in quote marks as it's not really bleeding any treble.

    Anyway, yes, in my experience (of one guitar mind!) it definitely had an effect, even when the volume was on 10. I don't think 'no-load' pots are used on PRS, so they are not removed from the circuit when full up. Therefore the cap is bypassing some treble that would normally be lost. I also experienced the change in the taper of the volume pot, with the sudden dip in volume as you approach '0'. This makes volume swells less smooth, as the volume quickly jumps rather than smoothly ramps up.

    Although they definitely can have their use, they are still a compromise and the values do need a bit of tuning to a particular setup and usage to get the best out of them. Ultimately though, I didn't want it and un-soldered one of the legs on mine. The volume pot instantly changed to smooth taper of an audio taper pot, and the tone on 10 changed as well. Actually, it was then a little too dark a tone, and so I swapped the tone cap from 0.033uf to a more standard 0.022uf which put back a little bit of the top end (my theory is that 0.033uf is used to tame the extra brightness caused by the treble bleed cap).

    I originally planned to wire the treble bleed cap up to a switch, and mount this through the back plate, so that it could be toggled on and off, but I've never gotten around to it and I just haven't needed the function of it. A small circuit that change tone cap values at the same time could be knocked up easily enough, would be a cool mod. Maybe I should patent it :)
     
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  9. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    There's a lot of presence in the high end that honestly could use some dulling. I know some people use a 50ft cable to do that, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

    I don't do swells really, they're something cool, but.. I've no use for such stuff!

    I think I agree, a no load pot would have a notable bump at 10, wouldn't it? Much like the no load on the American Series Fedners that were out about 15 years ago, they had it on the tone, it was an indent and it was clear, you could hear the increase. I imagine that'd be the same on a vol knob; if it was no load on 10, wouldn't it get notably louder at 10..? The fender got notably brighter..

    The high end I hear is a louder string sound, under the left hand, when you move your hand up and down the neck, that 'shriek' is quite loud. I've PAF sized Firebird pickups in my guitar, they sounds great, but it's very bright as is.

    It's a crispness in the upper highs it's definitely there and I've even heard it on videos on YouTube when someone's demoing a guitar. Some people love it no doubt, and it totally has its place.

    It'd be nice for the neck pickup of a Singlecut, say, so you can do the channel switch thing. Just not sure I need it on this guitar, just trying to fine tune the final signal to amp.

    You're also suggesting that you can hear a tone cap on 10? Some people might tell you it's impossible, that you CAN'T hear it, but my ear's very good, I know what I can hear.
     
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  10. Tone-y

    Tone-y New Member

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    I don't really do swells either, but just noticed they didn't work as well with the treble bleed fitted.

    Yes, the treble bleed adds notable presence to me too. Because the treble is bypassing the pot, you're getting all of that signal, but the rest of the signal is having some of its content shaved off by the pot. So you end up with a prominent upper treble to your tone.

    I also hear it on youtube videos of guitars, that upper crispness as you say.

    Yes, I can also hear the change in tone cap values when the pot is on 10 too, for much the same reason. The pot isn't a no-load pot (unless it is of course?!) so there is always some value of resistance in the circuit. It's like your pot is really on 9.5, not 10, and the value of the cap changes the frequency of where your tone control operates. 0.033uf comes further into the mid range frequencies (not mid range, just further in that direction), so takes more of the treble end of the spectrum off. 0.022uf means the tone control is operating over even higher frequencies, so more of the upper mids are not affected by it.

    I have a Yamaha superstrat; two humbuckers, single volume and tone, 500k ohm pots. That has a 'blower' switch on it, that bypasses the volume and tone control for direct output. It is noticeable when flicking between direct out, and going through the volume and tone pot, that they make and audible difference, even when they are both on '10'. Nothing major, but audible. Slightly stronger signal, slightly more treble.
     
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  11. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    I did think so, it’s wired on both the input and output terminals of the volume pot, so as it signal comes in from the pickup and through, then out again. It’s essentially adding a slight EQ. If I’m not mistaken; it can’t add anything, but it can remove certain frequencies to effectively brighten the tone…?


    As in, signal comes in from pickup, goes through cap, then the signal goes out, with additional frequencies that means there’s more highs out from the vol pot, making it seem brighter? Effectively, it’s putting a filter on what’s coming from the pickup, almost like an EQ pedal between the pickup and output jack?


    That’s a part of what made my 245 sound so ‘LP’. In addition to the pickups, it also had the pots, etc changed.


    By the way that was quite a spraying of nerd musk there… I’m quite impressed..
     
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  12. Tone-y

    Tone-y New Member

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    :) doesn't mean anything I've said I'd technically correct!
    Anyway, you're not adding anything to the signal as everything is passive (no amplifies used), only subtracting frequencies.
    What the treble bleed does is effectively bypass the volume pot with the higher frequencies, so these aren't so affected by turning the volume down. "Retaining the highs" as it is said, as the higher frequencies would normally be more affected by turning the volume down (there is natural capacitance in the circuit so the volume also acts as a small Tone control). All the other frequencies go through the volume pot as normal and are subject to having a bit of their signal shaved off. This is what gives the high end extra prominence when a treble bleed is fitted.
     
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  13. shimmilou

    shimmilou Established in 1963

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    Although not a “no-load” pot, at 10 on the normal volume pot, the cap is effectively shorted (opposite of a “no-load” pot), so the cap at that point has no effect on tone. And a “no-load” pot would not work for volume, at 10 there would be no signal, as the pot is removed from the circuit. That is how a “no-load” pot works on a tone control, it is removed from the circuit at 10.
     
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  14. littlebadboy

    littlebadboy New Member

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    I experimented with a cheap guitar (not prs), high output ceramic humbucker bridge, 1 meg no load vol pot, and no tone circuit, and...



    Dirty parts were using the bridge humbucker with 1 meg no load vol pot, while cleans and the short bluesy solo was a humbucker sized P94 to a 500k vol pot with also no tone circuit. I think I don't like tone circuits.

    I actually liked the setup for my kind of music.
     
    #14 littlebadboy, Apr 30, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  15. Black Plaid

    Black Plaid just another Alan

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    I suppose it depends on your definition of 'beed'

    It allows a range of treble frequencies to pass unhindered by the state of the potentiometer.
     
  16. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    So if there was a no load volume pot, when you got to 10 and clicked into the indent, you’d presumably notice a slight bump in volume and frequency?

    The volume knob is putting a load on from 10..

    So many people who say; ‘no, I know what I’m talking about’ and look at society today… Oh my days..
     
  17. shimmilou

    shimmilou Established in 1963

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    The no-load tone pot works such that when turned to 10, the pot is open, the wiper is disconnected. This disconnects the output of the pot from the input of the pot, open circuit, no tone cut at all.

    The input (wiper) of a volume pot is connected to the pup, and the output of the volume pot is connected to the output jack of the guitar. If you used the same type of no load pot for volume as you use for tone, when you turn it up to 10, the pup would be disconnected from the volume output.

    This is why the same type of no load pot used for tone, can not work for volume.
     
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  18. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    So you can't have no load on a pickup through the Volume? Is it fair to say that those who say that the volume pot is out of the circuit at 10 are incorrect?
     
    #18 GavQuinn, Apr 30, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  19. shimmilou

    shimmilou Established in 1963

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    The same type of "no-load" pot typically used for tone, can not work for volume. Yes, the pot is out of the circuit at 10, which would disconnect the pup if used for a volume pot, so it won't work for volume.

    There are guitars that use push buttons to completely bypass all controls, and connect the pup directly to the output jack, but certainly not a "no-load" volume pot, at least not the same type as used for tone control.
     
  20. GavQuinn

    GavQuinn New Member

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    Is it fair to say that those who say that the volume pot is out of the circuit at 10 are incorrect? It's no about right or wrong, but it's good to know if they do make a difference or not.
     

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