Tone & Budget

[CandidPicker]

Hi, All,

From previous questions I've posted you may be wondering if a 594 Singlecut is in my future.

Well, to be brutally honest, I don't think my budget, no matter how much cash-savings could possibly occur on my part, would allow for a 594 purchase. A purchase is just out of reach, budget-wise.

Therefore, to be more realistic, I'm asking the following question:

What practical modifications have any of you made to a PRS VS2 Singlecut Standard that has improved the tone of the guitar?

For instance, what are your thoughts about replacing the S2 SC #7S pickups with 57/08s? Would any additional wiring mods be required? If so, what are they?

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I’m trying to think of an example where I couldn’t recommend a set of 57/08’s.

 

[Mozzi]

Tone is completely subjective so any change that someone makes may not be something that improves the tone for you. Understanding the instrument you have and the parts is key to making the right upgrades for your taste. For example, if the guitar sounds a bit dark, understanding the pick-ups you have and looking for some pickups with a bit more treble to brighten up the sound makes sense but if the guitar is a bit bright, you don't want to buy pups that are brighter...

You can replace most things on a guitar and most of it has some impact on tone - although some parts may be changed for ease (Locking Tuners) or Durability (frets, Strings) more than for the tone they offer but if a guitar is bright, some of that may be down to the string choice for example. You can change everything on a guitar though and still not get the tone you are chasing but maybe can get closer to it with picking the right parts but you need to understand what the current parts do and their contribution to the tone to know which parts would be better to get closer to the tone you want.

If its the new SC 594 tone you want, a modified S2 may get you closer than the stock S2 but it may not get you as close as you want regardless of the parts you put in it. Improving the tone is subjective to so you may find that putting the 'wrong' PU's - even if they are considered better, moves you further away from the tone you are chasing. For example if the guitar is bright with the PU's supplied and you put 'brighter' and higher quality PU's in, that may move the guitar further away from the warmer, darker tone you prefer. I don't think anyone would say the 57/08's are a bad Pick-up and that these will be an 'upgrade' but whether its the right/best upgrade for you and the tone you are looking to achieve is a different matter so its better to understand where the guitar is perhaps lacking and look at parts that are stronger in those areas.

 

[CandidPicker]

...You can replace most things on a guitar and most of it has some impact on tone - although some parts may be changed for ease (Locking Tuners) or Durability (frets, Strings) more than for the tone they offer but if a guitar is bright, some of that may be down to the string choice for example. You can change everything on a guitar though and still not get the tone you are chasing but maybe can get closer to it with picking the right parts but you need to understand what the current parts do and their contribution to the tone to know which parts would be better to get closer to the tone you want.

If its the new SC 594 tone you want, a modified S2 may get you closer than the stock S2 but it may not get you as close as you want regardless of the parts you put in it. Improving the tone is subjective to so you may find that putting the 'wrong' PU's - even if they are considered better, moves you further away from the tone you are chasing. For example if the guitar is bright with the PU's supplied and you put 'brighter' and higher quality PU's in, that may move the guitar further away from the warmer, darker tone you prefer. I don't think anyone would say the 57/08's are a bad Pick-up and that these will be an 'upgrade' but whether its the right/best upgrade for you and the tone you are looking to achieve is a different matter so its better to understand where the guitar is perhaps lacking and look at parts that are stronger in those areas.

Thanks for your input...I had also considered string gauge, but am currently happy with the stock 10-46's or same gauge (different brand).

I've thought about putting lower wind (read: turn) pickups in the neck to brighten up/clarify the bass end of things, but possibly moving towards standard or higher wind bridge pickup, for hotter, towards more easily attained overdriven tones at higher volume. Also was striving for warmer, smoother tones up the neck as described in Tim Pierce's videos.

Had stepped away from the forum to listen to Lollar Imperials (low/standard/high) pickups and thought the low-wind neck and standard bridge might work well together. (I'd owned a core Mira some years ago that had this configuration, and the guitar was a nice one, if the tone not altered slightly by the body shape and other facets of the guitar...)

That being said regards Lollar, how well do the 57/08s compare to the 58/15s nowadays? How might one compare these pickups to one another? (Just need a reference point for 58/15's so as to gauge the 57/08s)

 

[CandidPicker]

I’m trying to think of an example where I couldn’t recommend a set of 57/08’s.

Serg,

I had thought as well, most folks like the 57/08s versatility. Was also wondering if the 57/08s (3-wire with shield) are useable as coil-taps in the S2 SC?

 

[Screamingdaisy]

For what it’s worth as I’ve never used #7s, but I have had a couple of S2 and I really liked the pickups in both of them. Same thing happened when I bought an SE.

I think most people assume they’re going to hate the pickups, but in a lot of cases they actually sound pretty good.

If money is tight and you really want to swap pickups don’t overlook Seymour Duncan.

 

[CandidPicker]

For what it’s worth as I’ve never used #7s, but I have had a couple of S2 and I really liked the pickups in both of them. Same thing happened when I bought an SE.

I think most people assume they’re going to hate the pickups, but in a lot of cases they actually sound pretty good.

If money is tight and you really want to swap pickups don’t overlook Seymour Duncan.

Thanks,

I've been doing some research and found out that PRS McCarty's have 58/15s (Neck: 7.96 kOhm / Bridge: 8.88 kOhm) and sound warmer but with less clarity than the 57/08s (Neck: 8.7 kOhm / Bridge: 9.1kOhm) which sound brighter, are more articulate and with greater clarity than the McCarty.

By comparison, Lollar Imperials (Neck: 7.6 kOhm / Bridge: 8.4 kOhm), might be closer to where I might need to be, or somewhere in the 8.0 Neck / 8.7 Bridge area. I also think the body weight of the S2 will play a large factor in compatibility.

I've yet to do comparisons on Seymour Duncans, but had once purchased a set and returned it because it was possible to adjust the S2's pickup height and perform an intonation to my liking. Perhaps it's time to revisit my S2 again and see if some minor adjustments might also do what is needed.

Seymour Duncans are also within my budget, so it might be wise to do some more research regards DC resistance values and evaluate the clarity/warmth comparisons before committing to a "relationship" I'd not easily be extricated from...

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Serg,

I had thought as well, most folks like the 57/08s versatility. Was also wondering if the 57/08s (3-wire with shield) are useable as coil-taps in the S2 SC?

For sure they are. I’m have a set in my Mira and the taps are useful.

I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t be completely satisfying in an all mahogany SC guitar with that neck joint.

 

[Screamingdaisy]

Thanks,

I've been doing some research and found out that PRS McCarty's have 58/15s (Neck: 7.96 kOhm / Bridge: 8.88 kOhm) and sound warmer but with less clarity than the 57/08s (Neck: 8.7 kOhm / Bridge: 9.1kOhm) which sound brighter, are more articulate and with greater clarity than the McCarty.

By comparison, Lollar Imperials (Neck: 7.6 kOhm / Bridge: 8.4 kOhm), might be closer to where I might need to be, or somewhere in the 8.0 Neck / 8.7 Bridge area. I also think the body weight of the S2 will play a large factor in compatibility.

I've yet to do comparisons on Seymour Duncans, but had once purchased a set and returned it because it was possible to adjust the S2's pickup height and perform an intonation to my liking. Perhaps it's time to revisit my S2 again and see if some minor adjustments might also do what is needed.

Seymour Duncans are also within my budget, so it might be wise to do some more research regards DC resistance values and evaluate the clarity/warmth comparisons before committing to a "relationship" I'd not easily be extricated from...

Don’t underestimate the effect of the pickup covers. The covers on the McCarty roll off a bunch of top end and give the midrange more honk. In my brain I hear covers as more of a ‘50s tone and uncovered makes me think of the ‘70s.... others may hear that differently.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Oh, and... if you can find a used pair before they etched the covers, that’d be ideal.

The Chicago crew lead by @BrianC have had many conversations about the variability of 57/08’s. Some will be magic, and others maybe not as much. If you can hold out and grab an earlier set your chances of finding a great set will improve.

 

[gush]

I’m trying to think of an example where I couldn’t recommend a set of 57/08’s.

Maybe if said guitar had 5310s.....maybe????

 

[Mozzi]

Its not just the output of Pick-ups but also the way they wrap the wire around to give it its unique voice. The way its wired also determines how much bass, middle and treble values it has and so you can try and pick the set that gives you something you feel your current set doesn't offer. I don't know whether the gauge of string has a profound effect on tone but some strings are known to be brighter (steel) whilst others warmer (nickel).

The more you know about the hardware you currently have, the easier it will be to find the parts that should bring the guitar closer to the tone you are looking for and/or predict what the parts will do for the sound.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Maybe if said guitar had 5310s.....maybe????

The White West Street didn’t like a 53/10...

 

[garrett]

The only things I changed on my former S2 Singlecut Standard was pickups and volume pots. That's all it needed, IMO, and I am a tone snob.

I've used/heard the various Lollar Imperials as well as the 57/08. I honestly see no reason at all to spend that much money on pickups. I was very pleased with a set of Suhr Thornbuckers in mine; fantastic pickups a reasonable price. Seymour Duncan are great pickups; they are the standard for good reason. I put a set of Bootstrap humbuckers in my latest SE and they are excellent; around $100 a pair, customizable, and handwound in the USA.

Especially since budget is a concern, assuming you truly like your S2, just those couple of tweaks and you will rock along happily for a very long time.

 

[andy474x]

I have the S2 #7’s in two guitars, IMO they have a strong personality that either works with a certain guitar or doesn’t. A prominent upper mid push and not tons of bass, which is a fair match for a singlecut, although they are hotter than a straight vintage set.

I’ll mention my disclaimer that I haven’t gone to the hassle of A/B’ing 7’s vs 57/08’s in the same guitar, but my impression is that they’ve got more low mid thickness and a silvery top end. The neck pickup, in a singlecut, is especially thicker than what I hear from 594’s.

I would hold out for some 58/15’s of some kind, or a set of Seth Lovers would be closer in output to the 58/15LT’s, and they get closer to the airy neck pickup tone, too.

 

[CandidPicker]

I have the S2 #7’s in two guitars, IMO they have a strong personality that either works with a certain guitar or doesn’t. A prominent upper mid push and not tons of bass, which is a fair match for a singlecut, although they are hotter than a straight vintage set.

I’ll mention my disclaimer that I haven’t gone to the hassle of A/B’ing 7’s vs 57/08’s in the same guitar, but my impression is that they’ve got more low mid thickness and a silvery top end. The neck pickup, in a singlecut, is especially thicker than what I hear from 594’s.

I would hold out for some 58/15’s of some kind, or a set of Seth Lovers would be closer in output to the 58/15LT’s, and they get closer to the airy neck pickup tone, too.

I think I'd do some research regards DC resistance and magnet configuration as well...something close to the 58/15 LTs in DC value, with the same magnet config.

The desired sound I hear in my own head is pretty close to the 58/15LT ideal. That being said, it will likely be quite a while before 58/15LTs become available as aftermarket pickups, so something close to that on the market today might be an easier to find solution, albeit not the ideal one.

I'll do some more research regards DC values and check back later today. And, if I plug in my S2 after all the research and have that cathartic *poit* moment, realizing the S2 doesn't need a new set of pickups, there'll be that, too...perhaps the smarter way would be to soundcheck the S2 first...

 

[CandidPicker]

Well, I tried a side-by-side comparison of my S2 SC Antique White & my S2 SC McCarty Tobacco Burst Satin, and discovered the following:

The Satin is brighter and (obviously) lighter weight with more noticeable ambient noise. Although the Satin is easier to lift and allows for greater play duration than the Antique White, the tone of the Satin is noticeably different.

Before owning the Satin, the Antique White was my choice because of the warmer cleans and greater volume response at the same guitar volume levels. I'm not sure exactly why, but the Satin has lower perceived output volume, has more ambient noise, and is brighter with greater treble response than the Antique White.

My goal is make equal the 2 guitars, perhaps in tone response. The question is, if the weight of the 2 guitars plays an important role in predetermining tone response, what options might there be regards a pickup swap or electronics mod without increasing the body weight of the Satin guitar?

 

[veinbuster]

Many may feel differently, but I have found most budget problems are solved with patience.

 

[Ovibos]

Many may feel differently, but I have found most budget problems are solved with patience.

Interesting. I’ve found most patience problems are solved with budget.

 

[CandidPicker]

Many may feel differently, but I have found most budget problems are solved with patience.

Interesting. I’ve found most patience problems are solved with budget.

You are both correct, no sense throwing money at a project when additional understanding is required. No sense hurrying when the adage "haste makes waste" holds true.

For that reason, I consider it wise to ask a guitar tech his view of how some simple electronics mods might produce the desired results, rather than investing in more expensive pickups.

My goal is relatively simple...obtain a more vintage humbucker tone with the existing #7S pickups regards the Satin McC Burst, perhaps spray some shielding paint into the electronics cavity, and consider some capacitor/resistor replacements. If necessary, a call to StewMac's tech support line might steer me in the correct direction, rather than further afield and more costly options.

The question that weighs on my mind is why my Antique White sounds much richer and fuller, warmer and more vintage than the Satin. It may be a matter of peeking inside the Antique White to find out why.

I'd prefer to let a guitar tech do his job on the guitar rather than me tackle this myself. My personal electronics knowledge and soldering skills are non-existent, save for the usual plug-and-play.

FTR, both guitars have the same gauge/brand name strings, D'adarrio 10-46's.