I avoided the SE line for a few reasons. Number one, I typically purchase what I consider "mid-range" priced guitars ($1000 ~ $1500), such as the US built Gibson and Fender product lines. Number two, I always pegged the SE line as being comparable to the Epiphones, which I mostly found uninspiring to play. A few years back, I considered a SE Santana, but the ones I played also reminded me of an Epiphone LP. Fast forward to a few weeks ago... I accidently stumbled upon my new Bernie SE. This guitar stood miles above that Santana I played back in 2012. It felt more like a Gibson LP Standard than a Chinese built Epi LP Standard. Granted, the pickups leave something to be desired by some, but overall it's value far exceeds the price that I paid. The day I bought my Bernie, I was fully prepared to buy a $1200 guitar. In that process, I found a great guitar at nearly 1/3 the price. I'm not sure if the other "newer" SE models share the same quality that I've found on my Bernie, but I can tell you that there's not an Epiphone or Chinese built Fender that can touch it. To me, it simply boils down to the fact that PRS probably cares a bit more about quality of the guitars that they have built in the far east. It's also the PRS design that plays a huge factor. I've never played ANY guitar with a stoptail bridge that is as nicely intonated as my Bernie. Period. And that has to be attributed to design and quality of manufacture. Plain and simple. In my mind, that is why the SE line beats all the other imports.
The question i have is how many of you would opt for a scarf joint if you had that option?
Note that the current santana is a very different guitar that the first SE santana. Not sure which you played, but the one i have is new and it's anything BUT in the epiphone league. I know what epis are like having had several and even have one now that also doesn't compare to the santana at all. But as i've said, the PRS designs are what really set them apart due to the sound and playability.
As to the rest of the points made about scarf joints, you all make good points but i'm looking at it from my perspective. And even the taylor guitar example from MY perspective doesn't work for me. Taylors have IMO never had the traditional acoutic sound. They don't have the same warm mids and round treble and woodiness to *my* ear that a martin or gibson has, and to me they don't compare at all. They also have necks use bolts to secure them which is not a common design among the big names of the boutique makers that try and emulate them and better them. So i get your points, but they just don't make me feel any different about scarf joints. If you take a guitar with a SJ thats otherwise top quality build with a great design, a scarf joint isn't going to hold it back. But the fact is it IS a cost cutting design and the makers that use it are for the most part using it on thier import lines. So the point again is, whether or not it matters, people generally prefer not to have it and that fact should be obvious by how fe top line guitars use it compared to cheap imports. I think we can agree the percentage difference is huge. And again, the point was that it IS a cost cutting design that is used on epis and most other imports but now on the SE, which just speaks to the quality and the agenda behind the SE line. All bets on what it does sonically if anything at all aside, I personally don't like a scarf joint. There are many cost cutting designs in guitars that are debatable as to whether they are detrimental in any way with no solid proof at all that they are. And i don't know about you guys, but build a guitar with lots of those design aspects and i don't care how it sounds i'm probably not going to be trying it in the first place.
The question i have is how many of you would opt for a scarf joint if you had that option? If you were buying a $3k LP and you could have it either way, would you choose it? If not, then i think you can see why i consider it something that sets the SE line apart, and the reason i listed it in those 3 top reasons is that unlike tuners or pickups, nut, etc etc, you can't mod a scarf joint out of the guitar.
I have two of the original Santana SEs - the ones with the arm comfort bevel on the top where your forearm rests. The first one I bought is a D series (2003) and it is my second most played PRS after the HB spruce gold top. I'd put the SE up, unmodified, against any guitar costing 4x as much.
Preferences, perceptions, assumptions and prejudices can be so debilitating. Taylor is all scarf joint necks, and yes, bolted on necks, and this disqualifies them in your view. That's fine, it's your money. You get to buy what you want based on whatever evaluations are most important to you, as we all do.
My point to you is that just because you believe scarf joints make an inherently inferior guitar, that is obviously not true for everyone. I also suggest that you not decide before hand that something is inferior by reading it's specifications instead of giving it a try. We saw that when the S2 line was announced. People couldn't wait to dismiss them as crap. And no one had even touched one yet.
And I do want to emphasize that you get to decide for yourself what is important. But you do yourself a disservice to dismiss things without giving them a hands-on evaluation.
The answer to your last question is that I have several very expensive Taylors and I am satisfied with them, so no - the scarf joint is not an issue for me. I'm (dangerously) guessing that by "LP", you mean a Gibson LP. It is highly unlikely that I'll be buying a Gibson of any neck joint configuration because their general build quality disqualifies them for me. If they somehow got their act together and increased their QC to that of PRS and Taylor, I might consider one. I DO look at them from time to time, but I continue to not be interested in actually purchasing one.
I don't do myself a disservice at all.
…build a guitar with lots of those design aspects and i don't care how it sounds I’m probably not going to be trying it in the first place.
First of all, yes, i dismiss taylor because i don't like thier sound. I had one and the thing to my ear was more like a cheap plywood import. You hit it hard and they break up. I have a chinese import today that i would wager good money would sound better than that taylor to anyone that played them side by side. In fact, to me it's nite and day better. Is that because of the scarf joint? The bolted neck joint? i dunno....i don't care. I dislike the sound ! And if you read further back you'll note i said that i don't know for sure that a SJ will sound bad, but that all the mediocre tilt back headstock guitars i've owned that WERE mediocre had them. That, the way i feel about taylor sound....i still won't testify a SJ is why.
But the fact is it IS a cost cutting measure. Look at shawn's last post. does that say it all or what? It is exactly what i said earlier....the s2 line uses it because in the USA manufacturing costs are far greater and thats how they are able to make that line as inexpensive as they needed them to be. Note they don't use it on the core models....why is that? Thats a question i'd like answered if i'm just being foolish about this. Whereas in korea costs are so low they could afford not to scarf them. It's really all very simple....it's a cost cutting measure that *may* harm tone or may not, but whether or not it does are you going to choose the guitar with it over one without if they are otherwise exactly the same?
If your answer is no, then we agree....the SE line is extremely uncompromising compared to most others in the range and is a detail that cannot be upgraded away, which is what i was trying to point out initially but seems to have gotten lost. No, i'm not saying it makes for a lousy guitar. I never said it did, i said we don't know. And unless you hear a guitar w/o it, then cut and splice the head back on with several guitars neither of us will ever know. But thats not even the point.
Well, I'm not going to debate this any longer because unless face to face it could go on forever trying to explain it in type. But all i need from you is to just answer my question. 2 guitars, both exactly the same except one has a SJ. Same price, everything. Which will you buy? Your answer will either show you agree with the original point i was making or you don't. If you want the one that jointed then a wanna know why Paul doesn't use that on the core models. Maybe he can answer you better than I.
You are all jacked up about the glue joint in a scarf joint neck possibly killing tone, but you completely gloss over the glue joint at the neck/body.
I skimmed your post and wasn't even going to reply, but....really? really? You're going to cite a detail that is and always has been a part of the tonal recipe forever as a example of why i'm jacked up about the scarf joint/ Seriously? How about this....have a guitar made with a 10 piece neck and 12 piece body. Would that be ok with you? I assume yes? Where do YOU draw the line. Is 9 piece ok? how about 6? Furthermore, and the last thing i'll say on the subject, again and again you fail to see the original point which has nothing to do with tone, it's about wanting quality and peace of mind that it absolutely doesn't change the tonal recipe thats been used forever and.......the fact the SE line doesn't compromise like the others. But then i'm a jackass for appreciating that. Done...
all i need from you is to just answer my question. 2 guitars, both exactly the same except one has a SJ. Same price, everything. Which will you buy?
As far as the SE necks go:
SE's with mahogany necks (24.5 and 25" scale lengths) = 1 piece mahogany
SE's with 24 frets and models with longer scale lengths = Three piece necks (usually maple)
Korina is harder to find in chunky neck blank-sized blocks, so it's typically three piece necks as well
All US made "core" models utilize single piece necks. S2 necks are scarfed to save wood and make the guitars more affordable.
...I also like maple necked Les Pauls and volutes.
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As to maple caps on a few epis, i not only know that but when i was looking for a LP i investigated those specifically because they were the only cheaper guitar with caps. But those are only a limited edition epi and the street cost is actually the same or more than the SE's.