This Family Music Thing Is Getting Out Of Hand

[László]

I’ve talked a lot about my granddaughter, my son, my brother, and other family members in the arts.

I just learned that my first cousin’s daughter Emelia is playing drums for Phoebe Bridgers, who’s opening for Taylor Swift on her current tour.

Things are getting pretty abnormal, methinks!

 

[Joe sherman]

Talented Bunch !!!!

 

[dmatthews]

That's fantastic!

 

[bodia]

That is very, very cool! The talent pool runs deep.

 

[László]

Talented Bunch !!!!

That is very, very cool! The talent pool runs deep.

I figured it’s gotta be more than, “There must be something in the water in Detroit!”

So, a couple of years ago, I did some genealogical research to try and find out what could possibly have contributed to, or caused this stuff. Evidently one of my father’s cousins kept very detailed records going back to the 17th Century.

What I discovered might be related…or not. I mean, there’s really no hard proof as to what a music gene might look like. But it’s of interest, whether it’s coincidental or genetic.

For that matter, there’s also ‘nature vs nurture’ that can be talked about all day. There could be a combination of nature and nurture, for that matter. Here goes, anyway:

In the 18th and early 19th centuries, in my paternal grandmother’s ancestral line in Kyiv (Kiev) there were a father and son who composed and performed religious music. These are common ancestors to me, my son, my granddaughter, and the two cousins. My father was also musical, although he was a businessman, not a professional music person. My grandmother, however, was not at all musical.

My father also thought that going into the music business was a really stupid idea, and of course, he was right!

Sidebar: I did it anyway, after I’d first proven that I could make a living in law and be a normal person. That’s why I practiced law for a while before getting into music, and explains why I was a late bloomer.

My mother’s maternal grandfather was a cantor (singer) in a synagogue. He is a common ancestor to all I’ve mentioned except my cousin’s daughter I just posted about (does that make her a second cousin or something else? I have no clue about these titles).

My mother majored in theater in college, and did community theater as an adult. My daughter has done a little professional theater but is mostly a painter and mom. My daughter has had some of her paintings in shows; my brother makes his living at it.

If only one family member was musical, an actor, or painted, I’d chalk it up to random chance.

But between the cousins, my granddaughter, and the ancestral info, I’d speculate that there’s a cluster of some kind at work here, a common genetic thread. I’d also guess that because it seems to be family-driven, nurture is also involved.

My knowledge of genetics is painfully minimal. I could be way off. But it’s interesting to me, anyway.

 

[bodia]

I figured it’s gotta be more than, “There must be something in the water in Detroit!”

So, a couple of years ago, I did some genealogical research to try and find out what could possibly have contributed to, or caused this stuff. Evidently one of my father’s cousins kept very detailed records going back to the 17th Century.

What I discovered might be related…or not. I mean, there’s really no hard proof as to what a music gene might look like. But it’s of interest, whether it’s coincidental or genetic.

For that matter, there’s also ‘nature vs nurture’ that can be talked about all day. There could be a combination of nature and nurture, for that matter. Here goes, anyway:

In the 18th and early 19th centuries, in my paternal grandmother’s ancestral line in Kyiv (Kiev) there were a father and son who composed and performed religious music. These are common ancestors to me, my son, my granddaughter, and the two cousins. My father was also musical, although he was a businessman, not a professional music person. My grandmother, however, was not at all musical.

My father also thought that going into the music business was a really stupid idea, and of course, he was right!

Sidebar: I did it anyway, after I’d first proven that I could make a living in law and be a normal person. That’s why I practiced law for a while before getting into music, and explains why I was a late bloomer.

My mother’s maternal grandfather was a cantor (singer) in a synagogue. He is a common ancestor to all I’ve mentioned except my cousin’s daughter I just posted about (does that make her a second cousin or something else? I have no clue about these titles).

My mother majored in theater in college, and did community theater as an adult. My daughter has done a little professional theater but is mostly a painter and mom. My daughter has had some of her paintings in shows; my brother makes his living at it.

If only one family member was musical, an actor, or painted, I’d chalk it up to random chance.

But between the cousins, my granddaughter, and the ancestral info, I’d speculate that there’s a cluster of some kind at work here, a common genetic thread. I’d also guess that because it seems to be family-driven, nurture is also involved.

My knowledge of genetics is painfully minimal. I could be way off. But it’s interesting to me, anyway.

It's really interesting. I was hoping that when my wife retired in 2019 that she would want to go down the genealogy hole for both of our families. Her parents were first generation Americans with their parents (her grandparents) coming from Poland and maybe Ukraine. My parents were both second generation Americans with their parents all coming from Germany, I believe. Alas, she wasn't interested. Maybe something I'll do when I decide to retire. I'm fascinated by all of it.

 

[László]

It's really interesting. I was hoping that when my wife retired in 2019 that she would want to go down the genealogy hole for both of our families. Her parents were first generation Americans with their parents (her grandparents) coming from Poland and maybe Ukraine. My parents were both second generation Americans with their parents all coming from Germany, I believe. Alas, she wasn't interested. Maybe something I'll do when I decide to retire. I'm fascinated by all of it.

Of possible interest:

What is now Western Ukraine was mostly in Poland in the interwar years, and before that was in the Hapsburg Austrian Empire. Eastern Ukraine was Russian.

From the late 18th C until after WW1, Poland was partitioned between Germany, Austria and Russia, and didn’t exist as a country, but as a geographical area.

Before the 18th Century, there was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that included Western Ukraine. This was the country that came to the aid of the Viennese during the Turkish Siege of Vienna in the late 17th C (1688? Don’t make me look it up!).

This was a source of competing claims over who ‘owned’ the territory and why chasing down some ancestry in Eastern Europe is dicey at best.

Most of Eastern Europe was divided before WW1 between the Ottoman Empire, the Austrian Empire, the German Empire and/or Prussia (before 1871), and Russia as part of a peace treaty.

Note: Before 1871 there was no country called Germany. Germany was a geographical area,

There was Prussia, Bavaria, Westphalia, Thuringia, Saxony, and so on. There were dukedoms and kingdoms and whatnot - I’ll leave the details to Maerti, who no doubt has much more knowledge of this.

But in 1871 the Germanic states got together, won a war against France, and declared a German Empire at Versailles after their victory. This was Bismarck’s big accomplishment and why they named a boat after him. Sadly for Bismarck, I guess, the boat got sunk on its maiden voyage by the British Navy. But I digress,

Interestingly, a very ethnically diverse population got along quite well until the Austrians had the ‘brilliant’ idea that everyone should speak German and stop publishing and teaching in their own languages based on ethnicity and geography. Then everyone, literally everyone, became pissed off nationalists according to their perceived ethnicity, which was truly unknowable due to lack of/destruction of formal records, and simply based on language.

For the most part there was no way to even determine ethnicity, because the populations mingled. There were different languages spoken in different areas, but that didn’t make the speakers of those languages this or that ancestry, because people moved around and intermarried, just like now. So it was all perception. Thus, basically, BS.

This so called ethnic anger and nationalism was a big source of the antagonisms that arose and contributed to the outbreak of WW1. These countries were granted independent status under the Treaty of Versailles, though much of it turned out badly and contributed to the outbreak of WW2 and later ethnic wars through the 1990s.

After WW2, Poland was given a chunk of the former Eastern part of Germany, and kicked out all the Germans (at significant loss of life and property); The Czechs did the same thing. The Soviets took over Eastern Poland and “repatriated” the Ukrainian population, who were also pulled out of what is now Poland, and kicked the Polish population out of the lands they took over, again, at great loss of life and property.

So there was considerable question about who was what ethnicity before WW1 and to a lesser degree before and after WW2.

So, for example:

My grandfather was born in Łódź in what is now Poland. Most people spoke Polish, it was a city known for textile production.

His birth certificate (which my brother has) was written in Polish. However, there was no Poland. Łódź was part of the German Reich at the time (1891). The Germans didn’t call it Łódź, they called it something else (maybe Litzmannstadt?).

Łódź was first part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, from the late 18th Century, until the end of WWI, Łódź was part of Prussia (and after 1871 part of the German Reich). So was my grandfather Polish or German? Had his father not left Łódź when my gramps was two, he’d have served in the German army in WW1 as a German citizen. As it happened, he grew up from age 2 mostly in Texas, and considered himself Texan.

My maternal grandmother was born in Lithuania. After the late 18th C. partition, it was part of the Russian Empire. Was she Lithuanian or Russian? Beats me.

My paternal grandmother was from Kyiv, now the capital of Ukraine, first the capital of the Rus; then part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth because they didn’t want to be part of the Muscovite Empire; and then Russian under the Partition. Her family was there during all three phases. What were they? Ukrainian? Polish-Lithuanian? Russian?

You see the problem; By 1800 at the latest, Eastern Europe was a hodgepodge of lines drawn on maps for political reasons following wars, but the lines on the maps made very little sense for most of the populations of these regions.

This is partly why it’s hard to figure this all out. Also during the many, many wars, lots of records were lost to the mists of time.

Add to that the fact that until 1840 or so, most Eastern Europeans did not have last names! They might be Vladislav, son of Juris, or similar. (This had previously been the case in Western Europe as well for most peasants, meaning, most people - but in the West they picked their names some years earlier).

Europeans adopted last names because the Empires that ruled them demanded they do it for tax and census purposes. So they picked names, often out of thin air, some based on their neighborhood or town, some based on the nearest nobles who ran their lives, some based on their religious piety, some on their occupation.

For example, my last name means the same thing as Shepherd, a name chosen by lots of Europeans in various languages because they were deacons of churches or active in synagogues and therefore ‘shepherds’ of their religious flocks.

Anyway, that’s why it’s confusing, and sometimes people don’t even know what country to go to even if they could find the records of whatever village or town.

 

[Moondog Wily]

Of possible interest:

What is now Western Ukraine was mostly in Poland in the interwar years, and before that was in the Hapsburg Austrian Empire. Eastern Ukraine was Russian.

From the late 18th C until after WW1, Poland was partitioned between Germany, Austria and Russia, and didn’t exist as a country, but as a geographical area.

Before the 18th Century, there was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that included Western Ukraine. This was the country that came to the aid of the Viennese during the Turkish Siege of Vienna in the late 17th C (1688? Don’t make me look it up!).

This was a source of competing claims over who ‘owned’ the territory and why chasing down some ancestry in Eastern Europe is dicey at best.

Most of Eastern Europe was divided before WW1 between the Ottoman Empire, the Austrian Empire, the German Empire and/or Prussia (before 1871), and Russia as part of a peace treaty.

Note: Before 1871 there was no country called Germany. Germany was a geographical area,

There was Prussia, Bavaria, Westphalia, Thuringia, Saxony, and so on. There were dukedoms and kingdoms and whatnot - I’ll leave the details to Maerti, who no doubt has much more knowledge of this.

But in 1871 the Germanic states got together, won a war against France, and declared a German Empire at Versailles after their victory. This was Bismarck’s big accomplishment and why they named a boat after him. Sadly for Bismarck, I guess, the boat got sunk on its maiden voyage by the British Navy. But I digress,

Interestingly, a very ethnically diverse population got along quite well until the Austrians had the ‘brilliant’ idea that everyone should speak German and stop publishing and teaching in their own languages based on ethnicity and geography. Then everyone, literally everyone, became pissed off nationalists according to their perceived ethnicity, which was truly unknowable due to lack of/destruction of formal records, and simply based on language.

For the most part there was no way to even determine ethnicity, because the populations mingled. There were different languages spoken in different areas, but that didn’t make the speakers of those languages this or that ancestry, because people moved around and intermarried, just like now. So it was all perception. Thus, basically, BS.

This so called ethnic anger and nationalism was a big source of the antagonisms that arose and contributed to the outbreak of WW1. These countries were granted independent status under the Treaty of Versailles, though much of it turned out badly and contributed to the outbreak of WW2 and later ethnic wars through the 1990s.

After WW2, Poland was given a chunk of the former Eastern part of Germany, and kicked out all the Germans (at significant loss of life and property); The Czechs did the same thing. The Soviets took over Eastern Poland and “repatriated” the Ukrainian population, who were also pulled out of what is now Poland, and kicked the Polish population out of the lands they took over, again, at great loss of life and property.

So there was considerable question about who was what ethnicity before WW1 and to a lesser degree before and after WW2.

So, for example:

My grandfather was born in Łódź in what is now Poland. Most people spoke Polish, it was a city known for textile production.

His birth certificate (which my brother has) was written in Polish. However, there was no Poland. Łódź was part of the German Reich at the time (1891). The Germans didn’t call it Łódź, they called it something else (maybe Litzmannstadt?).

Łódź was first part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, from the late 18th Century, until the end of WWI, Łódź was part of Prussia (and after 1871 part of the German Reich). So was my grandfather Polish or German? Had his father not left Łódź when my gramps was two, he’d have served in the German army in WW1 as a German citizen. As it happened, he grew up from age 2 mostly in Texas, and considered himself Texan.

My maternal grandmother was born in Lithuania. After the late 18th C. partition, it was part of the Russian Empire. Was she Lithuanian or Russian? Beats me.

My paternal grandmother was from Kyiv, now the capital of Ukraine, first the capital of the Rus; then part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth because they didn’t want to be part of the Muscovite Empire; and then Russian under the Partition. Her family was there during all three phases. What were they? Ukrainian? Polish-Lithuanian? Russian?

You see the problem; By 1800 at the latest, Eastern Europe was a hodgepodge of lines drawn on maps for political reasons following wars, but the lines on the maps made very little sense for most of the populations of these regions.

This is partly why it’s hard to figure this all out. Also during the many, many wars, lots of records were lost to the mists of time.

Add to that the fact that until 1840 or so, most Eastern Europeans did not have last names! They might be Vladislav, son of Juris, or similar. (This had previously been the case in Western Europe as well for most peasants, meaning, most people - but in the West they picked their names some years earlier).

Europeans adopted last names because the Empires that ruled them demanded they do it for tax and census purposes. So they picked names, often out of thin air, some based on their neighborhood or town, some based on the nearest nobles who ran their lives, some based on their religious piety, some on their occupation.

For example, my last name means the same thing as Shepherd, a name chosen by lots of Europeans in various languages because they were deacons of churches or active in synagogues and therefore ‘shepherds’ of their religious flocks.

Anyway, that’s why it’s confusing, and sometimes people don’t even know what country to go to even if they could find the records of whatever village or town.

Thanks Professor! Lot's of interesting specs in that write up!!

 

[László]

Thanks Professor! Lot's of interesting specs in that write up!!

I’d call myself the Mad Professor, but I don’t want to be confused with a guitar pedal. I’m confused enough already.

 

[László]

This is what can happen to a person who doesn’t watch TV. A person who either writes music or, when out of gas for doing that, sits down and reads. And who for some reason can’t remember what he had for breakfast, but can remember a whole buncha history stuff nobody really cares about.

Said person becomes remarkably boring to everyone around him, because at the drop of a hat, he will spew forth some historical information, because he MUST!

This is why illiteracy should be encouraged. To prevent people from becoming boring.

It would also have the additional benefit of keeping certain people who tend toward being boring pedants off the internet. It’s hard to be pedantic about stuff you can’t possibly know, and if you can’t read, the internet is only useful for porn.

“Dude, it’s only useful for porn even if you CAN read.”

“Who needs porn if you’re married and can see your spouse naked any old time?”

“Never been married, have you, Professor?.”

 

[Wyzard]

Of possible interest:

What is now Western Ukraine was mostly in Poland in the interwar years, and before that was in the Hapsburg Austrian Empire. Eastern Ukraine was Russian.

From the late 18th C until after WW1, Poland was partitioned between Germany, Austria and Russia, and didn’t exist as a country, but as a geographical area.

Before the 18th Century, there was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that included Western Ukraine. This was the country that came to the aid of the Viennese during the Turkish Siege of Vienna in the late 17th C (1688? Don’t make me look it up!).

This was a source of competing claims over who ‘owned’ the territory and why chasing down some ancestry in Eastern Europe is dicey at best.

Most of Eastern Europe was divided before WW1 between the Ottoman Empire, the Austrian Empire, the German Empire and/or Prussia (before 1871), and Russia as part of a peace treaty.

Note: Before 1871 there was no country called Germany. Germany was a geographical area,

There was Prussia, Bavaria, Westphalia, Thuringia, Saxony, and so on. There were dukedoms and kingdoms and whatnot - I’ll leave the details to Maerti, who no doubt has much more knowledge of this.

But in 1871 the Germanic states got together, won a war against France, and declared a German Empire at Versailles after their victory. This was Bismarck’s big accomplishment and why they named a boat after him. Sadly for Bismarck, I guess, the boat got sunk on its maiden voyage by the British Navy. But I digress,

Interestingly, a very ethnically diverse population got along quite well until the Austrians had the ‘brilliant’ idea that everyone should speak German and stop publishing and teaching in their own languages based on ethnicity and geography. Then everyone, literally everyone, became pissed off nationalists according to their perceived ethnicity, which was truly unknowable due to lack of/destruction of formal records, and simply based on language.

For the most part there was no way to even determine ethnicity, because the populations mingled. There were different languages spoken in different areas, but that didn’t make the speakers of those languages this or that ancestry, because people moved around and intermarried, just like now. So it was all perception. Thus, basically, BS.

This so called ethnic anger and nationalism was a big source of the antagonisms that arose and contributed to the outbreak of WW1. These countries were granted independent status under the Treaty of Versailles, though much of it turned out badly and contributed to the outbreak of WW2 and later ethnic wars through the 1990s.

After WW2, Poland was given a chunk of the former Eastern part of Germany, and kicked out all the Germans (at significant loss of life and property); The Czechs did the same thing. The Soviets took over Eastern Poland and “repatriated” the Ukrainian population, who were also pulled out of what is now Poland, and kicked the Polish population out of the lands they took over, again, at great loss of life and property.

So there was considerable question about who was what ethnicity before WW1 and to a lesser degree before and after WW2.

So, for example:

My grandfather was born in Łódź in what is now Poland. Most people spoke Polish, it was a city known for textile production.

His birth certificate (which my brother has) was written in Polish. However, there was no Poland. Łódź was part of the German Reich at the time (1891). The Germans didn’t call it Łódź, they called it something else (maybe Litzmannstadt?).

Łódź was first part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, from the late 18th Century, until the end of WWI, Łódź was part of Prussia (and after 1871 part of the German Reich). So was my grandfather Polish or German? Had his father not left Łódź when my gramps was two, he’d have served in the German army in WW1 as a German citizen. As it happened, he grew up from age 2 mostly in Texas, and considered himself Texan.

My maternal grandmother was born in Lithuania. After the late 18th C. partition, it was part of the Russian Empire. Was she Lithuanian or Russian? Beats me.

My paternal grandmother was from Kyiv, now the capital of Ukraine, first the capital of the Rus; then part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth because they didn’t want to be part of the Muscovite Empire; and then Russian under the Partition. Her family was there during all three phases. What were they? Ukrainian? Polish-Lithuanian? Russian?

You see the problem; By 1800 at the latest, Eastern Europe was a hodgepodge of lines drawn on maps for political reasons following wars, but the lines on the maps made very little sense for most of the populations of these regions.

This is partly why it’s hard to figure this all out. Also during the many, many wars, lots of records were lost to the mists of time.

Add to that the fact that until 1840 or so, most Eastern Europeans did not have last names! They might be Vladislav, son of Juris, or similar. (This had previously been the case in Western Europe as well for most peasants, meaning, most people - but in the West they picked their names some years earlier).

Europeans adopted last names because the Empires that ruled them demanded they do it for tax and census purposes. So they picked names, often out of thin air, some based on their neighborhood or town, some based on the nearest nobles who ran their lives, some based on their religious piety, some on their occupation.

For example, my last name means the same thing as Shepherd, a name chosen by lots of Europeans in various languages because they were deacons of churches or active in synagogues and therefore ‘shepherds’ of their religious flocks.

Anyway, that’s why it’s confusing, and sometimes people don’t even know what country to go to even if they could find the records of whatever village or town.

This encompasses much of our family history too; three generations back, my family name meant "Scribe", though it did get properly messed up in transliteration.

Meanwhile, my wife's family came from "The place where there is no peace"- and never has a family been more aptly named


Also - long life to your creative family !!!!

 

[László]

This encompasses much of our family history too; three generations back, my family name meant "Scribe", though it did get properly messed up in transliteration.

Meanwhile, my wife's family came from "The place where there is no peace"- and never has a family been more aptly named


Also - long life to your creative family !!!!

If there was a requirement that I name myself, I’d pick the name Zorro.

“Hey, there goes Zorro!”

“Which Zorro, the guy who signs his name with a sword [insert zoot-zoot-zoot SFX] or the composer?”

“Wait, they’re not the same guy?”

“No one knows for sure, I mean, they’re both dashing as all get-out, but I don’t think they’re the same guy.”

“Doesn’t Composer Zorro have a son in the music biz? What’s his name again?”

“Son of Zorro.”

“Makes sense, I named my kid ‘Son of Doofus’.”

“I named mine ‘Son of Neighbor’.”

 

[Alnus Rubra]

I figured it’s gotta be more than, “There must be something in the water in Detroit!”

So, a couple of years ago, I did some genealogical research to try and find out what could possibly have contributed to, or caused this stuff. Evidently one of my father’s cousins kept very detailed records going back to the 17th Century.

What I discovered might be related…or not. I mean, there’s really no hard proof as to what a music gene might look like. But it’s of interest, whether it’s coincidental or genetic.

For that matter, there’s also ‘nature vs nurture’ that can be talked about all day. There could be a combination of nature and nurture, for that matter. Here goes, anyway:

In the 18th and early 19th centuries, in my paternal grandmother’s ancestral line in Kyiv (Kiev) there were a father and son who composed and performed religious music. These are common ancestors to me, my son, my granddaughter, and the two cousins. My father was also musical, although he was a businessman, not a professional music person. My grandmother, however, was not at all musical.

My father also thought that going into the music business was a really stupid idea, and of course, he was right!

Sidebar: I did it anyway, after I’d first proven that I could make a living in law and be a normal person. That’s why I practiced law for a while before getting into music, and explains why I was a late bloomer.

My mother’s maternal grandfather was a cantor (singer) in a synagogue. He is a common ancestor to all I’ve mentioned except my cousin’s daughter I just posted about (does that make her a second cousin or something else? I have no clue about these titles).

My mother majored in theater in college, and did community theater as an adult. My daughter has done a little professional theater but is mostly a painter and mom. My daughter has had some of her paintings in shows; my brother makes his living at it.

If only one family member was musical, an actor, or painted, I’d chalk it up to random chance.

But between the cousins, my granddaughter, and the ancestral info, I’d speculate that there’s a cluster of some kind at work here, a common genetic thread. I’d also guess that because it seems to be family-driven, nurture is also involved.

My knowledge of genetics is painfully minimal. I could be way off. But it’s interesting to me, anyway.

Great share Les.

I’d tend to agree, an artistic nuance in a family line tends to lend itself to future members of that family taking up the arts.

Congratulations on having such a talented family

 

[LunarRock]

Ah so your a german sheppard.

Good boy!

 

[bodia]

Of possible interest:

What is now Western Ukraine was mostly in Poland in the interwar years, and before that was in the Hapsburg Austrian Empire. Eastern Ukraine was Russian.

From the late 18th C until after WW1, Poland was partitioned between Germany, Austria and Russia, and didn’t exist as a country, but as a geographical area.

Before the 18th Century, there was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that included Western Ukraine. This was the country that came to the aid of the Viennese during the Turkish Siege of Vienna in the late 17th C (1688? Don’t make me look it up!).

This was a source of competing claims over who ‘owned’ the territory and why chasing down some ancestry in Eastern Europe is dicey at best.

Most of Eastern Europe was divided before WW1 between the Ottoman Empire, the Austrian Empire, the German Empire and/or Prussia (before 1871), and Russia as part of a peace treaty.

Note: Before 1871 there was no country called Germany. Germany was a geographical area,

There was Prussia, Bavaria, Westphalia, Thuringia, Saxony, and so on. There were dukedoms and kingdoms and whatnot - I’ll leave the details to Maerti, who no doubt has much more knowledge of this.

But in 1871 the Germanic states got together, won a war against France, and declared a German Empire at Versailles after their victory. This was Bismarck’s big accomplishment and why they named a boat after him. Sadly for Bismarck, I guess, the boat got sunk on its maiden voyage by the British Navy. But I digress,

Interestingly, a very ethnically diverse population got along quite well until the Austrians had the ‘brilliant’ idea that everyone should speak German and stop publishing and teaching in their own languages based on ethnicity and geography. Then everyone, literally everyone, became pissed off nationalists according to their perceived ethnicity, which was truly unknowable due to lack of/destruction of formal records, and simply based on language.

For the most part there was no way to even determine ethnicity, because the populations mingled. There were different languages spoken in different areas, but that didn’t make the speakers of those languages this or that ancestry, because people moved around and intermarried, just like now. So it was all perception. Thus, basically, BS.

This so called ethnic anger and nationalism was a big source of the antagonisms that arose and contributed to the outbreak of WW1. These countries were granted independent status under the Treaty of Versailles, though much of it turned out badly and contributed to the outbreak of WW2 and later ethnic wars through the 1990s.

After WW2, Poland was given a chunk of the former Eastern part of Germany, and kicked out all the Germans (at significant loss of life and property); The Czechs did the same thing. The Soviets took over Eastern Poland and “repatriated” the Ukrainian population, who were also pulled out of what is now Poland, and kicked the Polish population out of the lands they took over, again, at great loss of life and property.

So there was considerable question about who was what ethnicity before WW1 and to a lesser degree before and after WW2.

So, for example:

My grandfather was born in Łódź in what is now Poland. Most people spoke Polish, it was a city known for textile production.

His birth certificate (which my brother has) was written in Polish. However, there was no Poland. Łódź was part of the German Reich at the time (1891). The Germans didn’t call it Łódź, they called it something else (maybe Litzmannstadt?).

Łódź was first part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, from the late 18th Century, until the end of WWI, Łódź was part of Prussia (and after 1871 part of the German Reich). So was my grandfather Polish or German? Had his father not left Łódź when my gramps was two, he’d have served in the German army in WW1 as a German citizen. As it happened, he grew up from age 2 mostly in Texas, and considered himself Texan.

My maternal grandmother was born in Lithuania. After the late 18th C. partition, it was part of the Russian Empire. Was she Lithuanian or Russian? Beats me.

My paternal grandmother was from Kyiv, now the capital of Ukraine, first the capital of the Rus; then part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth because they didn’t want to be part of the Muscovite Empire; and then Russian under the Partition. Her family was there during all three phases. What were they? Ukrainian? Polish-Lithuanian? Russian?

You see the problem; By 1800 at the latest, Eastern Europe was a hodgepodge of lines drawn on maps for political reasons following wars, but the lines on the maps made very little sense for most of the populations of these regions.

This is partly why it’s hard to figure this all out. Also during the many, many wars, lots of records were lost to the mists of time.

Add to that the fact that until 1840 or so, most Eastern Europeans did not have last names! They might be Vladislav, son of Juris, or similar. (This had previously been the case in Western Europe as well for most peasants, meaning, most people - but in the West they picked their names some years earlier).

Europeans adopted last names because the Empires that ruled them demanded they do it for tax and census purposes. So they picked names, often out of thin air, some based on their neighborhood or town, some based on the nearest nobles who ran their lives, some based on their religious piety, some on their occupation.

For example, my last name means the same thing as Shepherd, a name chosen by lots of Europeans in various languages because they were deacons of churches or active in synagogues and therefore ‘shepherds’ of their religious flocks.

Anyway, that’s why it’s confusing, and sometimes people don’t even know what country to go to even if they could find the records of whatever village or town.

And this post is why I love you

 

[László]

Ah so your a german sheppard.

Good boy!

Don’t forget to rub my head and ears. I’m an old dog, so just throw me a bone and we’re good.

 

[László]

And this post is why I love you

Love is all there is!

 

[Maertl513]

You are blessed, Les!
We do have the wide span of businesses in the predecessors. In the father's line: more handymen (bakers e. g., my father's father completed a training to become a typesetter/printer), in my mother's breed line: more academics like physicians, lawyers, pharmacists and a literal scientist with a certain relevance. Zoologist and first German deep sea explorer. His life achievement was leading the Valdvia-expedition in 1898/99. Prof. Dr. phil. habil. Carl Chun, University of Leipzig.
Funny is that starting my mothers parents the academic education was no option. In my father's line my father broke with the handyman "tradition", he studied. And his three sons earned university degrees. I'm the only son with kids. The future will show the paths our children took.

In musical terms we do not have any professional musicians, but some spent times in choirs or learnt an instrument with a teacher or as an autodidact.

 

[Prina]

This is what can happen to a person who doesn’t watch TV.

I'll guess that the Lions & UM are exceptions.

And congrats on the extended family exploits!!!!

Now the Laszlo Family Band has pro keys, guitar, drums and vocals (assuming Omi / cousin have been paid). You can use AI for bass since you're such a big fan.

 

[Abe]

Good to have a musical family.