The National Department Of Amps That Sit In Mixes Well Doing...Things.

László

Master Of The Universe (Emeritus)
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
36,501
Location
Michigan
Let me start off by saying that I could do my work with only one amp and a few pedals. I've done so in the past. But you have to use EQ to sculpt stuff out or add stuff in tracking and/or mixing, and that changes the character of the amp's sound. It's no longer what the player is used to working with.

The results are fine if you have a knack for it. Not so much if you don't.

Ask yourself: Why have classic black panel Fenders of the mid to late 1960s found their way onto so many great records? Why have the Fender-inspired classic Mesa amps done the same?

I think much of the answer to this one is their scooped midrange. With recessed mids, there's lots of room in a mix. You can make the guitars relatively louder and they won't mask the vocal. In other words, they're naturally good at sitting in a mix. They just work in that role.

Why have Marshalls and Dumbles been so great for lead tones? Same answer in reverse: they work well in that vocal midrange area. A solo is a replacement for the vocal, it's expected to live in that frequency area.

What's cool about what a Vox AC30 does in a mix? Its purposely-designed low frequency cutoff not only allows the amp to be louder (bass frequencies requiring more effort from the amp), it also means that you can hear the kick drum and bass very well. Pulling back the mids a little to make room for vocals doesn't seem to hurt the amp's tone, because most of the chimey overtones folks love are produced above the vocal range.

Similar things can be said about any number of amps used in a variety of ways on recordings, or in a live setting.

So I'm interested in starting a conversation about which of your amps are best suited for what, in a variety of similar roles, and why. If you use a modeler, which models do you like for these roles?

This stuff kind of fascinates me - we have so many amp choices now, it's fun to know what works for what.
 
Last edited:
Great write up Les. Oddly enough last week I scooped the mids on my Mesa Express using the amps built in graphic eq and got a, in my opinion, great high gain sound. I also didn't use any pedals, just straight in.
 
I should add that players often choose amps in a vacuum; that is, without much regard to what roles they'll play in the context of making music with other people and instruments.

That's great if you're playing by yourself in "mom's basement;" but doesn't work as well in a mix.

We talk often about guitars as role-players - something I think might be a bit overblown - yet we sometimes ignore the huge impact the amp has on the final outcome. As a producer/composer, I think the amp plays a larger role.
 
Last edited:
I noticed that a lot of guitarists that don’t play in a band have a totally different perception of a good guitar tone. Typically a lot of low end and lacking in the midrange. Sound's good by itself but most of the time is totally buried in the mix. You either love or hate the Marshall sound, but those mids just cut perfectly through a band mix. I always have the mid knob between 8 and 10 on my DSL and rather roll down the high end + the typical Tube Scream boost which pushes the mids even more and rolls the bass off. With a second slightly different guitar tone in the band it just sounds massive. With the PRS MT15 it’s a bigger struggle but still doable.
 
I agree...

Up until my recent purchase of a Headrush Flex Prime, my only experience with modeling was a Katana 50 MKII. My most favorite amp model is a Boss original called "Core Metal"... Boosted it's a chug-fest; sans boost, its the most dynamic and natural sounding in my opinion.

As far as frequencies in the mix, I figured that out a long time ago on a Fostex X26.
 
Last edited:
I noticed that a lot of guitarists that don’t play in a band have a totally different perception of a good guitar tone. Typically a lot of low end and lacking in the midrange. Sound's good by itself but most of the time is totally buried in the mix. You either love or hate the Marshall sound, but those mids just cut perfectly through a band mix.
Yes. On the other hand, you have to duck the volume behind vocals, because they occupy that midrange.

I learned well what sounds good at home doesn't always translate to the stage as well . Once you start adding vocals and other instruments the true colors come out of any equipment.
Totally.
 
For recording, modeling allows one to keep options open - a helpful feature as you add and subtract instruments to your song.

Lately, I have gravitated to TONEX and their ToneNet library of mostly free amp and cab models contributed by users.

As someone who is not primarily a guitar player, I appreciate being able to search for an “Eric Johnson” amp (or other famous player/style) and up pops a bunch of options to audition. I can narrow them down by attributes like “Clean” or “High Gain.” I loop a section of my mix and audition amps until I find something that works. Then I tweak away.

I use an HX Stomp live with the Chapman Stick and love it because I can have two independent “bass” and “guitar” effects chains at the same time in one box. To Line 6’s credit, they keep releasing new effects and amps for free. Their editing software is excellent. The ToneX software needs a lot of work by comparison.
 
For recording, modeling allows one to keep options open - a helpful feature as you add and subtract instruments to your song.

Lately, I have gravitated to TONEX and their ToneNet library of mostly free amp and cab models contributed by users.

As someone who is not primarily a guitar player, I appreciate being able to search for an “Eric Johnson” amp (or other famous player/style) and up pops a bunch of options to audition. I can narrow them down by attributes like “Clean” or “High Gain.” I loop a section of my mix and audition amps until I find something that works. Then I tweak away.
I've done that. If modelers float your boat, it certainly works exactly as you describe.

I prefer using real amps, but did invest in an amp and cab switcher by a Swiss company called KHE to simply and speed the process. It's noiseless and doesn't suck tone.

The switcher makes trying different amps with a track fast and simple, and it'll accommodate 8 heads and 4 cabs. It's actually faster than switching between amp software models; there are no menus, and it's as fast has having a preset on a foot switch. Simply flick a switch, and you're on to the next amp or cab.

The thing is, if I had a modeler, these are the models I'd use. Too many years on the planet fiddling with this stuff to not be specific about what I like. Not everyone is that definite about their needs, or wants to prevent having too many options. If they dig the sound of modelers, more power to them.

It took me over a decade to put this rig together between the amps, the cabs, and all the fiddly bits in between, and these are (for my purposes) my best choices for my style of play. Same with my pedals, cables and all the other stuff I obsess over.

A snootier person would say they 'curated' this rig. 😂

"You're plenty snooty, Laz."

"True, but there's only 'regular people stuff' in Studio Craptastic. All I do is go out and buy something anyone can walk into a store and easily find. That's just shopping, it ain't 'curating'.
 
I've done that. If modelers float your boat, it certainly works exactly as you describe.

I prefer using real amps, but did invest in an amp and cab switcher by a Swiss company called KHE to simply and speed the process. It's noiseless and doesn't suck tone.

The switcher makes trying different amps with a track fast and simple, and it'll accommodate 8 heads and 4 cabs. It's actually faster than switching between amp software models; there are no menus, and it's as fast has having a preset on a foot switch. Simply flick a switch, and you're on to the next amp or cab.

The thing is, if I had a modeler, these are the models I'd use. Too many years on the planet fiddling with this stuff to not be specific about what I like. Not everyone is that definite about their needs, or wants to prevent having too many options. If they dig the sound of modelers, more power to them.

It took me over a decade to put this rig together between the amps, the cabs, and all the fiddly bits in between, and these are (for my purposes) my best choices for my style of play. Same with my pedals, cables and all the other stuff I obsess over.

A snootier person would say they 'curated' this rig. 😂

"You're plenty snooty, Laz."

"True, but there's only 'regular people stuff' in Studio Craptastic. All I do is go out and buy something anyone can walk into a store and easily find. That's just shopping, it ain't 'curating'.
I have never owned a real amp and would probably be thrown out on to the street if I started down that path! I like to say I play guitar but I am not a real guitar player. The real guitar players I know have very specific tastes/needs depending on the circumstances. I learn a lot from them about the types of amps that work for different styles etc. and try to apply that to selecting the right modeling amp for death metal vs. the Pat Metheny style sound. It sounds like curating the real amps works really well in the studio and from your recordings sounds great!

I use modeling amps the same way I use patches on my keyboards and for my limited purposes of recording myself, that works well. I have only dipped my toe into using real microphones on acoustic guitars and pianos and realized that while I love the sound, the noise floor issues in my non-sound reinforced house are a big problem. For the Stick, modeling amps make more sense because I have to process more than one type of instrument at a time and also because guitar and bass amps are not really designed to work with the Stick so a lot of tweaking is needed.
 
I have never owned a real amp and would probably be thrown out on to the street if I started down that path! I like to say I play guitar but I am not a real guitar player.

You sound awfully good to me! I'm not a real guitar player, either; I play 'composer guitar'. It's kind of a low-level specialty of the house! 😂

I use modeling amps the same way I use patches on my keyboards and for my limited purposes of recording myself, that works well. I have only dipped my toe into using real microphones on acoustic guitars and pianos and realized that while I love the sound, the noise floor issues in my non-sound reinforced house are a big problem. For the Stick, modeling amps make more sense because I have to process more than one type of instrument at a time and also because guitar and bass amps are not really designed to work with the Stick so a lot of tweaking is needed.

Oh, don't get me wrong, what you're doing works well, and most important your music and playing sound excellent to me. What works, works.

The main reason I use real amps is - this is just me, and most people think I'm way around the bend - there's an almost liquid texture I get with amps I don't hear with modelers. Sound and texture help make the simple melodies I create more interesting to my ear.
 
You sound awfully good to me! I'm not a real guitar player, either; I play 'composer guitar'. It's kind of a low-level specialty of the house! 😂



Oh, don't get me wrong, what you're doing works well, and most important your music and playing sound excellent to me. What works, works.

The main reason I use real amps is - this is just me, and most people think I'm way around the bend - there's an almost liquid texture I get with amps I don't hear with modelers. Sound and texture help make the simple melodies I create more interesting to my ear.
I say, "whatever gets you off" is A-OK in my book. There really is no right or wrong... As long as you can effectively communicate with your audience....who gives a f*ck?
 
Do you think your clients can tell the difference between a modeler and real amp?

Yes! But in a very different way than you're probably thinking.

Delivering finished, high quality recordings is about the sum total of the listening experience, not whether someone can pick out a model from a real amp in a single track.

Whatever enriches that finished recording, part by part, creates a more involving listening experience that listeners notice - and like.

Listeners don't have to know why a recording sounds good, any more than I have to know the technical reasons my car handles well. All they know is it sounds great and gives them goose bumps, or it sounds meh.

For example, one of the things that distinguishes a fine microphone from a cheap import isn't how it sounds on a single source; it's what happens when you start stacking parts, i.e., vocal, vocal double, backup vocals. A great mic sounds magical that way, a bad one makes the recording sound more tinny with every layer.

What I get from a real amp delivers a more 'goose bumps' texture than a modeler. Start layering amps, and you get a better, more juicy result with real amps, though I think even single note parts sound better and more vibey with a real amp.

The better things sound, the happier clients are. I've proven this to myself over and over for the going-on-34 years I've been doing this work.

So they're probably not going to know amp from model in an A/B test. However, creating music isn't about A/B tests of individual parts, it's about the finished result. There is a difference.

BTW, I get lots of questions from my guitar playing clients (there have been many!) about how I got my guitar tone, because they like it.

[Edit] In a live setting, there's the electricity of a show to see and hear, often in a large venue that creates its own sound. In a recording, there isn't. I think that makes getting the best sound I can more important.
 
Last edited:
I say, "whatever gets you off" is A-OK in my book. There really is no right or wrong... As long as you can effectively communicate with your audience....who gives a f*ck?
I agree with this.

One thing I'd mention is that you have to consider the purpose for which you're playing and attempting to communicate.

For example, I often compete via demo tracks with other music production houses. The hardest part is getting the gig. Everyone in my business is very, very good at coming up with good compositions. We all have to find some little edge.

I'm often surprised that what seems to matter most in clients choosing a track isn't the composition - it's some little detail that has them say, "I liked that part...right there."

I never know what that's going to be, and have usually been surprised. So my motto is, Give It My Best.
 
I fully agree to my German colleague @Mentalo87.
Since I started recording my musical ideas in my improvised bed room or living room studio.
Signal chain: Guitar - Line 6 HD500X - DAW. From nowadays perspective way too much low end either due to the EQ setting of the amp sim and the selection of a microphone sim, which enhances the thickness. I name it "The Loudness Addiction".
Today my setting differs significantly. I record my guitar tracks with a real mic and a real cabinet. And the mic is positioned approx. 40 cm in front of the cabinet (between the two speakers). I prefer the authentic sound in the room. Personally I believe I capture it best as possible.

My amp's 3-band-EQ is set as follows: bass 3.0/10, middle 2.8/10, treble 8.2/10. The microphone is a Lewitt LCT 940, a tube mic, which could be set from full tube to full FET, or blended in between.
I learned to not underestimate speakers and cabinets to the quality of the sound/tone. I selected neutral and powerful speakers (I don't want to carry owls to Athens, László is fully aware of my gear, but not all guys in this thread, therefore: 12" Celestion Neo 250 Copperback, 10" EVM-10M), in order to let my amp and the guitar breath the most.
When adding a bass track, I still trust Line 6 and use a HELIX Floor for that. I try to prevent interferences with the low end of the guitar.
I don't do post production mixing. The only things I process generally is the panorama or the general volume of the respective track.

Taking the signal of the amp D/I delivers a very much too compressed sound. Hereby I remain conservative and trust the sound of laboring speakers.
 
Last edited:
I fully agree to my German colleague @Mentalo87.
Since I started recording my musical ideas in my improvised bed room or living room studio.
Signal chain: Guitar - Line 6 HD500X - DAW. From nowadays perspective way too much low end either due to the EQ setting of the amp sim and the selection of a microphone sim, which enhances the thickness. I name it "The Loudness Addiction".
Today my setting differs significantly. I record my guitar tracks with a real mic and a real cabinet. And the mic is positioned approx. 40 cm in front of the cabinet (between the two speakers). I prefer the authentic sound in the room. Personally I believe I captured it best as possible.

My amp's 3-band-EQ is set as follows: bass 3.0/10, middle 2.8/10, treble 8.2/10. The microphone is a Lewitt LCT 940, a tube mic, which could be set from full tube to full FET, or blended in between.
I learned to not underestimate speakers and cabinets to the quality of the sound/tone. I selected neutral and powerful speakers (I don't want to carry owls to Athens, László is fully aware of my gear, but not all guys in this thread, therefore: 12" Celestion Neo 250 Copperback, 10" EVM-10M), in order to let my amp and the guitar breath the most.
When adding a bass track, I still trust Line 6 and use a HELIX Floor for that. I try to prevent interferences with the low end of the guitar.
I don't do post production mixing. The only things I process generally is the panorama or the general volume of the respective track.

Taking the signal of the amp D/I delivers a very much too compressed sound. Hereby I remain conservative and trust the sound of laboring speakers.
Seems to me you're doing a great job. I like to record the cab with the mic 12"-24" from the speakers (roughly 30-60 cm), with mic's exact distance depending on a few factors like the room, the cab, and whatever sound I'm aiming for.

I haven't had personal experience using the Lewitt mics, but they're getting great reviews, and I've heard great things. At some point I'll try one.

The mics I use here are Neumann's very modestly priced TLM 103s (they're based around the U87 capsule but are cardioid-only); a few Latvian JZ mics (designed and made by the guy who created the original Blue mics) like their Vintage 47, Black Hole and BT202s, the occasional Royer ribbon, and I like the Sennheiser e936, a dynamic mic designed for live vocal performance, on cabs, too. But I always have the Shure 57 and Audix i5 workhorses on standby.

For preamps with guitar, I like the BAE 1073, a mic preamp with a very solid, characterful tone that seems to add a little of that 'sounds like a record' quality to the audio that goes through it.
 
You sound awfully good to me! I'm not a real guitar player, either; I play 'composer guitar'. It's kind of a low-level specialty of the house! 😂



Oh, don't get me wrong, what you're doing works well, and most important your music and playing sound excellent to me. What works, works.

The main reason I use real amps is - this is just me, and most people think I'm way around the bend - there's an almost liquid texture I get with amps I don't hear with modelers. Sound and texture help make the simple melodies I create more interesting to my ear.
I understand - likely similar to how it feels to play a real piano vs. controller. The sound in the recording may be virtually indistinguishable but it feels different which can lead to playing differently (hopefully better!).
 
I'm not the right template, because I do record for the purpose of keeping my mind in good structure when it comes to creative output. Just conservation. I do not compose on paper, it's try and error and improvement. Once something is recorded, there is space for new ideas.

The chosen distance between cab and mic has been measured by comparing the direct hearing and the monitor hearing via headphones.
I was told by the cab manufacturer that good positions for hearings are minimum twice the height of the cab, better four times. But it is uncommon to put a microphone 6 feet up in the air.
Maybe an additional room mic is a suitable tool.

On the other hand: it depends. Some spend the most effort in the mix and in the end the finalized sound differs so much from the original. The same with re-amping. Others - like me - are satified with the given sound.

Because of the unique engineering of the cab I rejected immediately the purchase of the no-brainer mics likewise SM57, which are positioned close to the speaker (from edge to center), but invested in that particular tube mic.
 
Back
Top