The Motown Thread

[docbennett]

Les...I was under the impression he was literally just focusing on the guitar parts and saying beyond that everything else in general it's just not his bag.


now me....I dig me some Motown....look at a lot of the early Hendrix appearances!!!

Thank you very much. And as I said....everyone has different taste. NO reason to excoriate someone whose opinion differs, IMO.

Never liked Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound" either. However, it appears that Phil was a crazy man who is now reaping the seeds he has sown. And, after that cameo in "Easy Rider" he went from the king of cool to the madman with the gun. Held the Ramones hostage at one point and threatened to shoot Dee Dee if they didn't finish the tracks as per his dictates.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

I love this song, classiest use of the word "freaky" in a song I have ever heard.

 

[László]

Thank you very much. And as I said....everyone has different taste. NO reason to excoriate someone whose opinion differs, IMO.

I'm not going to argue the point except to say this: Authorship of a tune is not a matter of opinion. And if you listen to the tune, the guitar part follows, and then does a variation on, the vocal melody.

That melody was laid down before EVH walked into that studio. Without the melody that EVH did NOT write, there is no guitar part.

So the comment that it's somehow an EVH tune is, I think, disrespectful of the actual author. I don't know why you'd want to do that. As a musician, I'll add this: If you can't appreciate the entirety of the tune and the soulfulness of the music and the melody it's based on, you'll never play that solo well. So that's your "punishment."

 

[docbennett]

I'm not going to argue the point Oh Yes you are, Les except to say this: Authorship of a tune is not a matter of opinion. And if you listen to the tune, the guitar part follows, and then does a variation on, the vocal melody.

That melody was laid down before EVH walked into that studio. Without the melody that EVH did NOT write, there is no guitar part.

So the comment that it's somehow an EVH tune is, I think, disrespectful of the actual author. To be honest, I really don't care about being disrespectful to either MJ or EVH. One is deceased, but my personal opinions of both artists are extremely jaundiced. I find them both to be people I'd never choose to be friendly with. I don't know why you'd want to do that. As a musician, I'll add this: If you can't appreciate the entirety of the tune and the soulfulness of the music and the melody it's based on, you'll never play that solo well. Well...I'll certainly accept your critique of my playing and related skill set...however I refute your allegation that one must "appreciate" the music one is playing in order to play it properly. I love to play Pink Floyd. IMO Roger Waters was a real jerk from 1977 through 2008. I guess that means I'll never be able to play any Dave Gilmore solos from the "Animals" era through "The Final Cut". Oh well. So that's your "punishment." Les....now that my parents are both deceased, only my wife has the capacity to punish me. And I must admit it's fun sometimes.

Les....Interpolated within your comments above, you will not find me saying that I obviously do like some Motown tunes. I tend to not prefer the entire genre...just not my cup of tea. However, some tunes are certainly enjoyable to me. And, that being said, I will never again hear the cheerfully pop "I was made to love her" by Stevie Wonder without automatically associating it with Harlan Ellison's "Shattered Like a Glass Goblin" which uses the tune as background music in a disturbing story that forever created a creepy and upsetting nexus between the two for me.

Enough tangential prattle. Back to you guys who actually enjoy the genre.

 

[László]

>>however I refute your allegation that one must "appreciate" the music one is playing in order to play it properly. I love to play Pink Floyd. IMO Roger Waters was a real jerk from 1977 through 2008.<<

Truth is, if you don't appreciate - and by that I don't mean "like" - I mean *understand* the vibe, the rhythmic nuance, the melody, the song - you can't play it well. Nor do you have to like the whole genre; but to do it well, you really do need to understand what's going on, and the more experience you have with it as a listener and a player, the better you can play it. Very simple, truly.

You're also infusing the artist's personality problems into the music, which is a separate thing. The music is capable of being appreciated for what it is; music may be able to inspire emotion, but it is abstract. This is why you are able to like Pink Floyd's music without liking Roger Waters. The personality of the player isn't the key to unlocking the music. You can be as crazy as a bedbug, or have intractable issues, but still write some awesome music, write some good books, or paint some wonderful paintings, etc. See, e.g., Van Gogh, Hemingway.

The more one understands, the more ideas one can apply to the playing (especially instinctively - something that takes time spent with the music), the better one plays.

 

[László]

:dancing:

OK, fine. We're having a discussion, defined as:

"discussion |disˈkəSHən|
noun
the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas: the proposals are not a blueprint but ideas for discussion | the specific content of the legislation was under discussion .
• a conversation or debate about a certain topic: discussions about environmental improvement programs.
• a detailed treatment of a particular topic in speech or writing."

This involves some back and forth exchange of ideas, not just one liners, expressing an opinion, and then going away with nothing more to say. That ain't a discussion. This is.

 

[László]

The two of you waste tremendous energy attacking each other

You're no douche!

But a discussion isn't an attack. It's an expression of differing viewpoints in this case. I have no interest in attacking anyone. It's why I used the term, "disappointed" regarding Bennett's feeling that it's an EVH song, and not another term.

Fact is, Bennett and I communicate about lots of stuff offline, and we're friends (I think). My friends and I often have discussions in which we disagree, and it's cool, no one gets upset. Why should it be any different on what is supposed to be a "discussion forum?"

I figure this isn't Fox news, we don't all have to shout. But it does make sense (to me) that we engage freely in discussion. I honestly don't see that as a waste of energy. In fact, that's what energy is for!

 

[sergiodeblanc]

.....and just for Sergio I'll add a :girl:.

:wave:

Thank you for getting us back on track.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

sergio...This one is for you!

Thanks Bob, I see you Rick James and raise you the Mary Jane Girls.

 

[László]

Bob encouraged me to post again in this thread. Admittedly, I can be a very stubborn person. So I'd like to give a little more background, while at the same time apologize to anyone who was or is offended:

Motown was HUGE when I was in high school. It was a symbol of progress for my generation in Detroit in the way kids of different races began to relate to each other. Everyone was proud of Motown music. We were excited about it. In a big way, the music was a bridge for understanding at a time when big changes were occurring all over America. Yes, that sounds corny, but there you are. It was especially important in the magnet school I attended in Downtown Detroit, that had 4500 kids from all over the city, from all backgrounds, and had been the high school of some of the Motown stars.

We formed integrated bands to perform both Motown music and other rock music. We started integrated clubs, and the clubs had dances that were fun and successful. It felt wonderful that everyone was closer; we'd be beaming with mutual admiration after a gig. Yeah, that sounds corny now, too, but it meant something in the 60s.

If you haven't done it, you have no idea how much fun it is to perform with a horn section and a real vocal group, as opposed to one rock singer - it's a gas! In college, the bands who played all over campus did a lot of Motown. I was in another band in college with horns; and the band was also a coming together of kids from different races and backgrounds. We had TONS of fun. It was a big part of my history as a musician. I believe that playing the music helped me develop as a musician and as a human being. That reads pretty corny, too. I suppose it is, but it means something important to me. YMMV.

I try to be open-minded when I listen to music. I get frustrated when I think that others aren't. But everyone's clearly entitled to their opinion when it comes to what they like and relate to, and what they don't.

Every so often, I'm asked to do something for an ad in that style of music; clients are sometimes surprised that I can arrange a vocal group, horns, etc., that sound authentic. I just smile.

 

[docbennett]

Les...being your age, and living where you live, was kinda like me growing up near Greenwich Village in NYC as the Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, NY Dolls, David Johannsen....not to mention the forerunners Lou Reed, Velvet Underground and the entire CBGB, Mud Club and burgeoning Punk Scene exploded into the New York Village and Soho scene.

I can see why you are so passionate about this era and the related music. Kinda like why I am so passionate about the "3-chord progressions" that became Punk, and the "New Wave".

I think you just gotta be a bit more tolerant of those who don't share your musical preferences. You didn't mean to be offensive, but some of your comments can be perceived as overly critical when you write with the aforementioned passion. I see you've edited a lot of your comments. You've softened them up considerably. But, for example, when you describe one's comments as "insult to others' intelligence" you are making that jump from "criticism" to "personal attack"...at least it appeared that way. And then, the resulting debate takes away from the original topic of the thread.

No harm, no foul and as we've already established, everyone has the right to their own taste and their own opinion. I respect the fact that you feel so strongly about your music.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Motown was HUGE when I was in high school. It was a symbol of progress for my generation in Detroit in the way kids of different races began to relate to each other. Everyone was proud of Motown music. We were excited about it. In a big way, the music was a bridge for understanding at a time when big changes were occurring all over America. Yes, that sounds corny, but there you are. It was especially important in the magnet school I attended in Downtown Detroit, that had 4500 kids from all over the city, from all backgrounds, and had been the high school of some of the Motown stars.

We formed integrated bands to perform both Motown music and other rock music. We started integrated clubs, and the clubs had dances that were fun and successful. It felt wonderful that everyone was closer; we'd be beaming with mutual admiration after a gig. Yeah, that sounds corny now, too, but it meant something in the 60s.

I don't think it sounds corny at all, I think that is one of the great things about Motown and a true testament to the power of music. Some people tend to forget (or never knew) that there was a time in this country where in some states it was illegal to have an integrated group of musicians playing on the same stage!

You (Les) and I have had a couple of good debates over a few subjects in the past that may have come off as uncomfortable for the people who were not involved, so I know first hand what it's like to go head to head with you and it's always FUN! So no worries if you think I'm offended, in all honesty I was looking forward to your insights about the subject matter when I originally posted this thread.

Doc don't do Motown, that's cool. I don't like tomato's but I still love pizza, that doesn't make much sense either, but there it is. I would expect a little resistance if I posted a comment on a thread about tomato's belonging in the dairy section though. :girl:

Carry on.

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Can't forget about Teena!

 

[László]

Les...being your age, and living where you live, was kinda like me growing up near Greenwich Village in NYC as the Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, NY Dolls, David Johannsen....not to mention the forerunners Lou Reed, Velvet Underground and the entire CBGB, Mud Club and burgeoning Punk Scene exploded into the New York Village and Soho scene.

I was really excited about the NYC New Wave/Punk scene myself. When my brother got out of his grad art program, he moved to NYC and rented a loft in SoHo. On my first trip there, the SoHo artist residence movement was a new thing; so much so that the cab driver refused to drive down his street at night (He lived on Spring Street near Broom) and let us off at the corner. This was around 1975. I visited him often during the entire time he was there (until 1989), and when the whole CBGB thing started happening, we went. Plus I was also into Velvet Underground and Lou Reed's stuff earlier on as well.

Early on, we also went to Studio 54, which was a completely different scene. There was a lot going on then, as now. Music is diverse.

But I'm also a veteran of the Greenwich Village scene, and went to NY to see friends from college during the summers; saw several of my favorite jazz and folk artists at places like the Village Vanguard during 1969-70.

Plus a lot of the punk scene influence came from Detroit bands like the MC5 and Stooges, who were acquaintances because they lived across the street from me in Ann Arbor during 1968-69. I also knew the guys in Commander Cody's band from my Ann Arbor days, and appeared on the same bill with them. There was this whole rockabilly thing happening that I loved at the same time as all the other stuff.

At one point in the early 70s I was in an all-acoustic bluegrass group. So...yeah. Lots of music. Did I mention my psychedelic/rock band that did Beatles, Who, Cream, Vanilla Fudge, Iron Butterfly, Sly, Chambers Brothers...I wasn't that crazy about being in a pop cover band by then, but it WAS fun doing that material.

I somehow went from there to learning Erik Satie on piano...

Like I said, I have a LOT of different influences and like (and play) a LOT of different musical styles. Open mind = good thing.

 

[László]

I don't think it sounds corny at all, I think that is one of the great things about Motown and a true testament to the power of music.

In the parlance of the time, the music was very...um...groovy!

 

[alantig]

+1 on Super Freak for me. I don't consider myself a big Motown fan (especially when compared to real Motown fans), but I do have a great appreciation for what they did. When I was in Detroit for the Frozen Four, I made a point of going to the Motown Museum. Very cool to stand in the studio where that music was created.

But the thing that stuck with me was that one of the guys in this band that recorded for Motown...

turned out to be...

 

[sergiodeblanc]

Sometimes you need the healing power that only music can provide. I feel safe to say it's something all of us here understand.