jfb
Plank Owner
I would rock these.
TCI-Tuned 58/15LT pickups!!!!
- Thread starter ViperDoc
- Start date
Same here... just easier with no real downside. Even on my LP I'd much rather have the locking Grovers it came with than ugly ass replicas of 50 year old technology that wasn't that great to begin with. I always thought Klusons were ugly AF and there's no offsetting functional/mechanical advantage. If it weren't for nostalgia they'd have been junked a long time ago
It’s not 50 year old technology, it’s more like 95 year old technology, since Kluson started making their machine heads in 1925. But. Tradition!
Of course, I still make use of the wheel, which is 5,500 year old technology, the electric guitar is 1931 technology, and the guitar itself is 500 year old technology, which is itself based on technology for lute-type instruments that date back to at least 800 AD in Moorish Spain.
Tradition!
Aren’t you guys just thrilled that I’m a history buff?
Yeahhhh. I thought not.
I’ll bet dollars to donuts that these Kluson replicas are made by Gotoh, who make other machine heads for PRS. So it’s not like they’re going to be junk. My 1965 SG Special still has its original Klusons, they still work fine after 54 years, and they’ve never been lubricated or messed with! So even the originals were decent items.
Tradition!
I do remember that when the McCarty first came out, it had a thinner headstock and the Kluson style machines because both Ted McCarty and Paul Smith felt that the guitars sounded better with less weight on the headstock, and the Klusons were lighter than the PRS winged tuners.
Whether they returned to the Kluson style tuners this year for tone reasons, or because it looks vintage, I can’t say, but I’ll bet it’s...
Tradition!
I like the Phase IIIs a lot, but I can live with the old style machine heads without complaining.
“That’s because you hardly ever change your strings, lazybones!”
“Yeah, but I have an excuse.”
“Which is?”
“I hate changing strings. It’s sort of a personal tradition.”
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ViperDoc
Plugged In.
I think the vintage tuner look is cool, and I’m sure whoever makes them does a fine job. Why PRSh would choose a non-locking tuner for tonal reasons *that are detectable by normal humans in a playing environment* is beyond me. But it might be justification enough to add to the stable and hear for myself...It’s not 50 year old technology, it’s more like 95 year old technology, since Kluson started making their machine heads in 1925. But. Tradition!
Of course, I still make use of the wheel, which is 5,500 year old technology, the electric guitar is 1931 technology, and the guitar itself is 500 year old technology, which is itself based on technology for lute-type instruments that date back to at least 800 AD in Moorish Spain.
Tradition!
Aren’t you guys just thrilled that I’m a history buff?
Yeahhhh. I thought not.
I’ll bet dollars to donuts that these Kluson replicas are made by Gotoh, who make other machine heads for PRS. So it’s not like they’re going to be junk. My 1965 SG Special still has its original Klusons, they still work fine after 54 years, and they’ve never been lubricated or messed with! So even the originals were decent items.
Tradition!
I do remember that when the McCarty first came out, it had a thinner headstock and the Kluson style machines because both Ted McCarty and Paul Smith felt that the guitars sounded better with less weight on the headstock, and the Klusons were lighter than the PRS winged tuners.
Whether they returned to the Kluson style tuners this year for tone reasons, or because it looks vintage, I can’t say, but I’ll bet it’s...
Tradition!
I like the Phase IIIs a lot, but I can live with the old style machine heads without complaining.
“That’s because you hardly ever change your strings, lazybones!”
“Yeah, but I have an excuse.”
“Which is?”
“I hate changing strings. It’s sort of a personal tradition.”
andy474x
Knows the Drill
I wonder if the Phase III’s will be a drop in to replace the vintage tuners. Someone recently posted about putting them on a ZM, which also has the vintage tuners, I think the headstock thickness has to be the same.
The proof is in the tone of the guitar as a whole. If the tone of the guitar is detectable by normal humans (and certainly it is), it’s the result of the sum of all the parts working together.
After all, you don’t play machine heads, you play a guitar. Whether you can identify each and every contribution of an isolated piece of hardware isn’t the relevant point. It’s a matter of whether you can hear how all the parts add up when you play the instrument.
Either the sum of the parts works for you or not. If you think it sounds good, you can thank every part, and every decision that went into choosing it. If not, it none of this matters.
I had an interesting experience with a Rick 360 about twenty years ago. The 360 has a two tier,, plexiglass pick guard. The upper pick guard is attached to the lower one with screws, and there are rubber grommets over the screws that create stand-offs for the second tier.
My guitar was a special order but it came with a poorly sawn upper pick guard, so Rickenbacker had me send the upper pick guard to them for swapping out.
When I took this extraneous piece of plastic off, it changed the tone character of the guitar very noticeably, which completely shocked me.
This is a part that didn’t even touch the strings! My theory is that the lower pickguard that covers the control cavity contributes to the resonance, but it’s damped by the robber grommets sandwiched between the two pieces of plaxiglass. Take the upper guard off, and the resonant frequency is different.
Small changes matter!
garrett
...
What cracks me up is, in 2016 Paul was praising the tweaked Phase III tuners and claiming they sounded like the vintage tuners.
Tone hounds gotta hunt and Paul is the king!
Tone hounds gotta hunt and Paul is the king!
ViperDoc
Plugged In.
No doubt. I wonder what you might notice most about your incoming McCarty: the tuners? The nitro? The placebo mojo? The TCI tuned pickups? I wish we could hear sooner, but I’m sure you’ll provide a quality report. Can’t wait!
I was told it’ll be a long wait. At least a year.
But time flies when you’re having fun
“Les, you don’t even remember what fun is.”
“Sure I do. It’s...er...uh...wait, you’re right.”
Mozzi
https://imgur.com/user/BAMozzy/posts
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 4,155
I certainly agree that a guitar is the sum of its parts but some parts can be changed and the effect on tone can be assessed. If you change the nut from Bone to that Graphite type material for example, you can note how changing that 1 part affects the overall tone and whether or not its actually detectable to the player. Certain things are easy to change - tuners, Pick-ups etc - even changing string type will have an impact, whilst others are difficult, costly and/or virtually impossible to change without permanently affecting the guitar - Frets, the finish...
Not every change is purely done for tonal reasons and maybe done for convenience and/or ease - locking tuners for example and some may change frets (when replacement frets are necessary) to Stainless Steel for durability. Durability may play a factor in string choice too - opting for those strings that promise longer life and/or added strength instead of the brand of strings a guitar is supplied with. That's without considering the actual set-up and the pick-up height.
I know you know all of this. None of that is new to you at all. However without proper testing or at least the results of those that have done the tests, then its left up to the individual to decide whether they should make alterations to the parts of the guitar that don't fit their ideal or preferred choice. Whether Vintage tuners were Paul's preferred choice with PRS strings and PRS set-up were the 'best' tonal option or not, without knowing the reason why and what impact these have, then people will change then for locking tuners because they prefer the convenience and ease of use. Without knowing what benefits the vintage tuners offered over the Phase 3's for example, how much of a difference and where the differences are, the difference that compatible alternatives may make could be negligible - less than replacing the PRS brand strings for a set of NYXL's or Paradigms, less than a fraction of mm difference in Pick-up height, less than audible by human hearing difference.
I am not denying that a guitar is the sum of its parts but if you can replace something because it doesn't meet your preferred option without any noticeable difference in tonal quality, then you haven't actually had a negative impact on the guitar at all but improved its specs. Not saying that NO difference has occurred, just that no perceivable difference has bee noted by the player - some of that may be down to not knowing what to listen for, not noticing a small drop in the treble for example or maybe the sustain only rings for 44s instead of 45s. Even if there is a detectable difference, the benefits of locking tuners for example outweigh the difference in the tone. The difference in tone may not be a 'negative' at all to some - some may prefer the difference in tone that changing strings or tuners make - as you yourself with your post about warm, fat, bright etc preference. If the 'heavier' locking tuners end up making the sound a little warmer/fatter, then that would be a very popular choice to swap tuners based on the majority of responses - preferred tonal characteristics as well as the ease of use that locking tuners offer.
The point I am making is that whilst I wholeheartedly agree that a guitar is a complete system where everything has an impact, certain aspects can be 'easy' to assess their individual impact by simply swapping them out for an alternative and noting any potential differences. The impact of the Vintage tuners may not be everyone's tonal favourite as you say, it could be just different not better/worse and some may well be willing to make a 'sacrifice' for ease of use and/or preference - especially if the sacrifice is not an audible sacrifice to their ears. Without knowing what the difference was from the prototyping, then its going to be left to those who buy and swap out the tuners for a compatible fitting set - Phase 3's look like they won't fit straight in without leaving some screw hole and/or mark from the Vintage tuners so it would need to be some other manufacturer.
Its not that the tone is bad that causes someone to change parts - particularly tuners - its more the functionality as I bet none of those SE buyers gave a second thought to the tonal changes swapping out the regular tuners for locking tuners as is probably one of the most common mods done to an SE and I bet the SE Locking Tuners have no mention of the tonal characteristics these have compared to the standard non-locking versions supplied....
All true. But I don’t change out parts to assess the effect on the guitars. That’s Paul’s job. I can certainly compare the new one to the older version, but I don’t have my older one on hand. I do, however, have recordings of it.
Guitpicky
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2017
- Messages
- 617
It’s not 50 year old technology, it’s more like 95 year old technology, since Kluson started making their machine heads in 1925. But. Tradition!
Of course, I still make use of the wheel, which is 5,500 year old technology, the electric guitar is 1931 technology, and the guitar itself is 500 year old technology, which is itself based on technology for lute-type instruments that date back to at least 800 AD in Moorish Spain.
Tradition!
Aren’t you guys just thrilled that I’m a history buff?
Yeahhhh. I thought not.
I’ll bet dollars to donuts that these Kluson replicas are made by Gotoh, who make other machine heads for PRS. So it’s not like they’re going to be junk. My 1965 SG Special still has its original Klusons, they still work fine after 54 years, and they’ve never been lubricated or messed with! So even the originals were decent items.
Tradition!
I do remember that when the McCarty first came out, it had a thinner headstock and the Kluson style machines because both Ted McCarty and Paul Smith felt that the guitars sounded better with less weight on the headstock, and the Klusons were lighter than the PRS winged tuners.
Whether they returned to the Kluson style tuners this year for tone reasons, or because it looks vintage, I can’t say, but I’ll bet it’s...
Tradition!
I like the Phase IIIs a lot, but I can live with the old style machine heads without complaining.
“That’s because you hardly ever change your strings, lazybones!”
“Yeah, but I have an excuse.”
“Which is?”
“I hate changing strings. It’s sort of a personal tradition.”
A comparable analogy would be using wooden wheels on cars just because they worked fine for covered wagons
A comparable analogy would be using wooden wheels on cars just because they worked fine for covered wagons
Let’s not disparage covered wagons, now. Covered wagons are awesome.
Mozzi
https://imgur.com/user/BAMozzy/posts
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 4,155
The point I was making is that we can assess what some parts can do for the tone. Swapping the nut for example can alter the tone but whether its a tonal change we can detect or not, we will only know by making that change ourselves. I am not suggesting that we should do the experiments ourselves to find out what nut we prefer if there is enough of a tonal shift. Changing string brand could have a bigger tonal shift but people still swap strings to their favourite brand.
With something like tuners, people will generally change these for the advantages of locking tuners, not for the sound - at least I haven't heard of anyone swapping the tuners for anything other than the perceived advantages these have over standard tuners - quicker string changes and potentially more tuning stability (if they don't know how to wind them properly). Whether or not the tuners do alter the sound enough to be detectable as often people change these at the same time they change string brands which may impact the sound more so, any difference may be attributed to the new strings rather than the tuners.
The reason I am focusing more on the tuners is the fact that PRS are opting to go for vintage tuners purely for sound and whilst there is no denying the guitars sound great with Vintage tuners, I can't see swapping to locking tuners have a massively detrimental impact and the only way I could possibly tell is to play something before and after changing the tuners and keeping the same strings and set-up. The decision then comes down too whether you can hear a tonal difference yourself and if so, is it a negative impact and more so than the advantages offered by Locking tuners. If you can't hear a negative difference (negative being subjective to the player), then you have gained the advantages offered by locking tuners without it being detrimental to the sound.
Personally, I think the sound would have to be significantly worse to me to make me want to change the tuners back to the vintage tuners because then the advantages of locking tuners would not offset any negative subtle nuances that heavier tuners have caused to the tonal quality of the guitar. I don't change parts either to assess their tonal difference but I would change parts to upgrade and/or add functionality, ease and/or convenience. Adding strap locks for example or swapping regular tuners for locking tuners to make string changing much quicker/easier...
I can't think of anyone that has changed the standard tuners on their guitars for locking tuners and PRS are now offering SE locking tuners to upgrade from the standard supplied tuners that SE guitars come with.
I guess now I'm supposed to think my 594 is obsolete and run out to buy a new one
Yes...send your old one to me and I'll be sure to dispose of it properly for ya...free of charge of course.
donderom
Mr. 594
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Messages
- 48
I don't know about you guys but the McCarty sounds divinely in this clip. You can hear cracking nitro of my soul.
For real!!!!
The Tim Pierce video with Howard Leese blew me away. IMHO anyone not sold on these guitars after watching it...needs to have their hearing checked.
One of these just shot to the tippy top of my "Guitar Bucket List"! Holy Mother of PAFs...they sound GLORIOUS!
