Taming the distortion on Archon 50

[andy474x]

If you want to get light, non-harsh OD, maybe try that rental service and see if you can get you hands on the Bogner Wessex and Fender MTG. I have those and they’re very smooth, the Wessex especially. The Wampler Plexi Drive and Friedman Dirty Shirley are both great plexi style pedals that I’ve owned, but a little more bite and not as smooth.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

putting a lot gain tube in the PI slot isn't going to change the gain level, it's only going to make the amp have less output. Like turning the master volume down.

V2 and V3 are the gain stages for the gain channel of the Archon. While V2 would seem a logical place for a 5751, the guys here who have tried it, replied that it worked better in V3. IMHO, and I didn't design the amp, I don't work for PRS, I'm not a paid spokesmodel for PRS, I'm not an IE or amp designer, but IMHO, if one lower gain tube in V3 doesn't get what you want, stop there. I just don't believe in replacing all the pre-amp tubes with low gain tubes. MAYBE try V3 and then V1 (the input stage) and if that doesn't work, you could try 2 and 3, but I wouldn't.

That said, I don't know where you bought your tubes, but you probably could have bought an OD pedal that would have worked for you through the clean channel, for the price of the tubes.

It also makes me say again what I've said before when asked for amp buying advice. If you KNOW you want a low to mid gain amp, you are far better to buy a low to mid gain amp to which you can always add gain with a boost or OD pedal, than you are to buy a high gain monster and try to tame it into a crunch amp. You are also going to struggle when you want the open crunch of a bright wide open plexi that is cranked, and you want to get that at low low volumes at home. That crunch comes from a slammed power stage and an overdriven PI, and you're not getting either at low volume. It's far easier to get that type of crunch from a pedal into the clean channel of an amp. THEN you can get that type of tone at low volume. The Archon WILL crunch very close to that, with the gain WAY down, but again, the volume needs to be opened up. IF you can't do that, tubes won't fix it. A pedal will.

I've told this story before but you're newer here. When I was a "clean amp plus pedals" guy, I could get those tones at lower volumes from pedals. When I started getting away with opening my amps up a little more at home, I started buying better amps. I can still do those tones with pedals into the clean channel of the Archon and can do them at low volumes. I would strongly suggest you get a plexi type pedal, not a bunch of tubes, to make the Archon do what you need it too.

Truth is, while it seems like a terrible waste to not use the killer gain channel of an Archon, there is NOTHING wrong with using pedals into the clean channel to get the tones you want! It has a great clean channel that takes pedals well.

 

[Black Plaid]

Ok, so I got some tubes in yesterday. Not really sure what I was thinking (or lack of thinking), I ordered a 12AT7, two 5751s and two 6L6s. Why did I order 6L6s? I have no idea why. The Archon has 6L6s in it already, so..... Strike 1. I installed the 12AT7 tube in the PI, it really didn't do anything other than it was microphonic.... Strike 2. The 5751s didn't come in yet, but I did try the two that I have in V2 and V3. The distortion was slightly less, maybe a bit more compressed. I would think that at higher volumes you may notice the difference in the distortion. I'll try all four 5751s when I get them, but I don't think that any of this is going to get me where I want to be. For now i am going to take a step back and rethink all of this. Maybe the Archon isn't the amp for me, but I'm not at the point yet

I am leaning in this direction for you as well.
Have you tried a Mesa MK V? The large iron version has 3 discreet channels. I have both amps and while there is a bit of overlap conceptually, they are definitely different beasts.

 

[shinksma]

I used to use only pedals into a clean amp, like DTR.

After having discovered and procuring a few PRS amps, I still use pedals. For two channel amps, it is mostly into the clean channel - e.g. I use the lead channel on my Archon for straight up medium to high gain, usually no reverb or delay or anything else. The Archon has a great lead channel, but it is indeed high gain-centric. I get far better low-gain crunch from pedals into the clean channel.

I have a whack of dirt pedals, which helps me find the right pedal or combo. I have an OCD clone going into a Keeley Oxblood on one pedal board typically used for gigging, and for home use I have a series of Boss dirt pedals on my almost-all Boss board: SD-1, BD-2, HM-2, DS-1. If I can't get the right flavor of dirt from those, I don't know what I really want.

I also have other dirt pedals on other boards or just laying about ready to go into service: Fuzzes, BMPs, RAT & RAT clone, and more.

Playing at low volume is going to be a compromise, tone-wise, especially if you are trying to rely on your amp for the dirt. Maybe you can find a "close-enough" lower-volume solution using pedals.

 

[ranchak]

I may do that. I also am going to try a few different cabinets that I have. I think some of the harshness that I'm hearing is coming from the speakers. I'm thinking about breaking them in and see what happens

 

[ranchak]

I used to use only pedals into a clean amp, like DTR.

After having discovered and procuring a few PRS amps, I still use pedals. For two channel amps, it is mostly into the clean channel - e.g. I use the lead channel on my Archon for straight up medium to high gain, usually no reverb or delay or anything else. The Archon has a great lead channel, but it is indeed high gain-centric. I get far better low-gain crunch from pedals into the clean channel.

I have a whack of dirt pedals, which helps me find the right pedal or combo. I have an OCD clone going into a Keeley Oxblood on one pedal board typically used for gigging, and for home use I have a series of Boss dirt pedals on my almost-all Boss board: SD-1, BD-2, HM-2, DS-1. If I can't get the right flavor of dirt from those, I don't know what I really want.

I also have other dirt pedals on other boards or just laying about ready to go into service: Fuzzes, BMPs, RAT & RAT clone, and more.

Playing at low volume is going to be a compromise, tone-wise, especially if you are trying to rely on your amp for the dirt. Maybe you can find a "close-enough" lower-volume solution using pedals.

When I say low volume, I'm still in the 90-95 dB range, so it's not exactly quiet. But the Archon sounds really great at 100dB, which won't work with the neighbors and also a few of the venues we play at, or used to play at. I haven't found any of the pedals that I have that I like with the clean channel. I am going to try some of the suggestions given here, but I think first I am going to try a few different cabinets so that is where the tone is ultimately being heard. My newest cab has a bit of harshness to it and that might be what I don't like with the pedals on the clean channel.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

When I say low volume, I'm still in the 90-95 dB range, so it's not exactly quiet. But the Archon sounds really great at 100dB,

Sounds like you're going through the same process I had to go through, when I first switched from "clean amp plus pedals" to using amps with great OD channels. We have to get our heads around some things that may not jibe at first. 90db isn't quite. 95db SURE isn't. But... a 2x12 cabs with two V30s is probably pushing 102dB with 1 watt! So while 95dB is for example, way louder than my wife would EVER listen to music (way louder than she lets me play it in the car, for example) it's not even 1/2 watt of power from a tube amp with most cabs. You mention how much better the Archon sounds at 100dB (I AGREE!!!) and that is just BARELY starting to let the tubes breathe. My ATMA is 18 watts, and if I use one of the clean to mid gain channels and try to push the PI and back end into OD, it's easily pushing 115dB.

So...

I think first I am going to try a few different cabinets so that is where the tone is ultimately being heard. My newest cab has a bit of harshness to it and that might be what I don't like with the pedals on the clean channel.

This may be part of your answer. Use two greenback or similar (I prefer higher powered greenback types as they have those mids without the crispy highs) or other lower efficiency speaker, and you effectively allow yourself to turn the amp up more while maintaining lower volume. This can really make a difference.

But not as much as a pedal into the clean channel. That's still the best option for lower volume "open crunch" type tones, IMHO.

 

[ranchak]

I am leaning in this direction for you as well.
Have you tried a Mesa MK V? The large iron version has 3 discreet channels. I have both amps and while there is a bit of overlap conceptually, they are definitely different beasts.

I have not tried a Mesa. I am leaning towards a Revv Dynamis 7-40. I had a G20 that I liked. I was just trying to get my distortion from the amp, not pedals. Although the Archon has great distortion, but like DTR says, it's a High Gain Monster and it might not be the right amp for me.

 

[ranchak]

Sounds like you're going through the same process I had to go through, when I first switched from "clean amp plus pedals" to using amps with great OD channels. We have to get our heads around some things that may not jibe at first. 90db isn't quite. 95db SURE isn't. But... a 2x12 cabs with two V30s is probably pushing 102dB with 1 watt! So while 95dB is for example, way louder than my wife would EVER listen to music (way louder than she lets me play it in the car, for example) it's not even 1/2 watt of power from a tube amp with most cabs. You mention how much better the Archon sounds at 100dB (I AGREE!!!) and that is just BARELY starting to let the tubes breathe. My ATMA is 18 watts, and if I use one of the clean to mid gain channels and try to push the PI and back end into OD, it's easily pushing 115dB.

So...


This may be part of your answer. Use two greenback or similar (I prefer higher powered greenback types as they have those mids without the crispy highs) or other lower efficiency speaker, and you effectively allow yourself to turn the amp up more while maintaining lower volume. This can really make a difference.

But not as much as a pedal into the clean channel. That's still the best option for lower volume "open crunch" type tones, IMHO.

My 212 cabinet I bought used. It had some time on it and it seams to be smoother than my 412 cab. I'm going to spend time over the weekend with both of them and see if maybe it's just my imagination. I'm also going to try my Marshall SC20 (small version of JCM800) again. I'm going to see if I can get a clean tone similar to the Archon. I have to admit that the Archon has the best clean tone I have ever been able to get. The Revv was probably second best.

I have some Vintage 30s and Greenbacks in a different cab that I can play around with. At least it will give me something to compare.

 

[Em7]

You have the wrong amp for the tone you are seeking. That tone is 50W plexi or earlier (I.e., JTM 45). You cannot get there by turning the gain knob down on the Archon. The signal path is too long. High-gain amps tend to have long signal paths to give a compressed high-gain tone. The shorter the signal path, the more connected to an amp a guitarist feels.

Now, if you want your desired tone and feel from a PRS amp, you should look for a used HX/DA 30 (PRS’s best amp for the non-drop-tuned rock guitarist by a sizable margin). The HX/DA amp can cover your desired sonic territory and more. There is nothing wrong with the Archon, but it is geared toward younger, drop-tuned guitarists and guitarists who are looking for a compressed tone (i.e., more gain stages equals more compressed tone).

 

[ranchak]

You have the wrong amp for the tone you are seeking. That tone is 50W plexi or earlier (I.e., JTM 45). You cannot get there by turning the gain knob down on the Archon. The signal path is too long. High-gain amps tend to have long signal paths to give a compressed high-gain tone. The shorter the signal path, the more connected to the amp a guitarist feels.

Now, if you want your desired tone and feel from a PRS amp, you should look for a used HX/DA 30 (PRS’s best amp for the non-drop-tuned rock guitarist by a sizable margin). The HX/DA amp can cover your desired sonic territory and more. There is nothing wrong with the Archon, but it is geared toward younger, drop-tuned guitarists and guitarists who are looking for a compressed tone (i.e., more gain stages equals more compressed tone).

I’ve spent a fair amount of time with the Archon since my last post and I do agree that this is not the amp for me. I ordered a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50, hopefully this will give me what I’m looking for. I’ll be putting the Archon on Reverb soon. Thanks to everyone who has made suggestions and offered their help

 

[Deleted member 5962]

A lower to mid gain amp that takes pedals well can be pushed to high gain. But if you know you want to live in low to mid gain land, there’s no reason to try to fight a high gain beast. Better to pick the right tool for the job. I haven’t played a Fillmore, but this is probably the right move.

it’s just hard to tell someone to sell an Archon.

 

[Em7]

I ordered a Mesa Boogie Fillmore 50, hopefully this will give me what I’m looking for.

Have you played a Fillmore? I have played a lot of Mesa amps in my life, and the Fillmore is one of most pedestrian.

I will give you an alternative, that is, if can get past the brand name; namely, the Wangs (pronounced Wongs) 1987HW and the 2204HW. These two models are referred to as budget boutique. They are built by a small shop in China for Chinese musicians (there is a cult following in North America). The 1987HW is a hand-wired version of the Marshall 50W plexi circuit and the 2204HW is a hand-wired version of the post-75 Marshall 50W JMP and early 50W JCM 800 circuit. I purchased both amps for less than one can purchase the Fillmore, which is an everything on a PCB amp. These models were each going for $800 shipped when I purchased my pair. However, if one entered “DBG” at check-out, 10% was subtracted from the price, making them $720.00 shipped, each (they take PayPal). Wangs shipped my amps packed like they were shipping eggs. I have also sent the dimensions for these models to Susan B. at Studio Slips. I had her company make padded slips for the amps. My slips came out great. Slips and clamshells are now available for the 1987HW and 2204HW via her site.

 

[ranchak]

Ok, here’s an update. I got a Mesa Fillmore 50. I’m very disappointed with this amp. I bought it through the store in Hollywood. I mentioned to the guy on the phone that I really don’t care for the Rectifier sound. He said that this amp didn’t have that and it had the classic rock tone. I would have to disagree, when you flip the toggle switch to drive or gain you can hear the tone stack change in the amp. It also has a clipped distortion sound. Very similar to a Rectifier, just less of it. So back to the Archon. I tried two Guitar Warehouse speakers, Reaper 50s. They do sound better than the Celestion Heritage 30s that where in my one cabinet.

Would a Custom 50 be more suited to my needs? I read that the clean channels are very similar, the gain is less on the Custom

 

[pac90]

HXDA?

 

[ranchak]

HXDA?

That would be great, but I'm not fond of the price.

 

[ranchak]

I’ve played with the Fillmore some more and I am not fond of the Mesa distortion. I did pick up a 2 Channel Custom 50. This amp is much closer to what I’m looking for. I still need to spend more time with it, but I think l may have a keeper

 

[bodia]

I’ve played with the Fillmore some more and I am not fond of the Mesa distortion. I did pick up a 2 Channel Custom 50. This amp is much closer to what I’m looking for. I still need to spend more time with it, but I think l may have a keeper

Sweet! I had a Custom 50 for a little while. Loved it.

 

[cyclops]

Glad you found the Custom 50! I had one, and loved it, did a mix of classic rock and 90s alternative. One thing I liked was putting an OCD pedal in front of the lead channel to tighten it up. Also changed the 6L6s to EL34s. Great tone, very versatile.