TALK TO ME: ARCHON WITH 16 OHM 212.

Discussion in 'Amplifiers' started by ViperDoc, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    SO I'M CONSIDERING THE ARCHON.

    50/100W OR 25/50W HEAD?

    16 OHM 212 CAB?

    I heard a 16 ohm cab demo with the Archon and it was DROOL.

    Which cab? I have a Dr.Z Z-Best 8-ohm cab that is the best cab I've heard. Options?
     
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  2. elvis

    elvis Hamfisted String Banger

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    The Archon has an impedance switch, it doesn't care about cab impedance.

    I've been using vertical recto 2x12 cabs with V30. I think it'll sound great through anything you plug it into. I'd recommend a closed cab though.

    The 50 sounds great. I prefer the 100 because the headroom is dope. Always sounds exactly how I want.
     
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  3. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    What if you got the amp, tried it with your Z cab, and then got a different cab if the combination didn’t sound the way you’d hoped?
     
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  4. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    That would be the sensible approach. Might just do that. I don't have a cab with V30s, so I was considering picking one up anyway. YEEHAH!!!
     
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  5. dmatthews

    dmatthews Dave's not here...

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    I have an Avatar 2x12 (V30s) that came wired as 4ohm. I opened it up and rewired for 16ohm. I also have a 2 chan Custom 50 combo, and an H combo. Both of those are 16ohm.
    Soooo.... I had the combos impedance set for 8ohm, and used the 2x12 as well as the internal speaker.
    This gave me 3x12 which is killer at the studio/stage. When we played out I'd just grab the combo only, and switch it to 16ohm.
    Perfect for small gigs!
     
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  6. DreamTheaterRules

    DreamTheaterRules Archon owning member

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    Depends on what you want to DO with the Archon. My PRS cab is 8 ohm. My Mesa 2x12 vertical recto cab is also 8 ohm. All my 1x12s are 8 ohm, so when I mix 2 I’m running 4 ohm. The Red Fang Alnico in open back cab KILLS with the Archon, but is a very different sounds than a V30 Mesa closed back cab. The RF/open - Private Jack(greenback type) closed is an awesome combination as well.

    Mesa/V30s take the gain channel into very aggressive territory, while the PRS V30 cab is warmer (pine). So clean channel sounds better on PRS cab and Gain channel is taste. When you start rolling in greenback types and Alnico types, the gain channel becomes very “boutique” sounding and the clean channel is spectacular with the Alnico and great with both mixed. More vintage sounding that either V30 cab.

    I don’t have an H type currently. I’d like to try the Archon with my Mesa Thiele cab with an EVM, but I don’t have that speaker.

    IMHO, speakers are SO much of your tone, that they are as important as the amp. I’ve read before that most people would like their tone better with their favorite speaker and a generic average amp, than they would with a great amp and the wrong speaker. I think there's some merit to that statement. I think you always find the right speaker for what YOU want, then you’ll love the amp.

    I suggest several cabs with different speaker types, which I feel will make any amp more versatile.
     
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  7. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    It’s exceedingly rare that any approach I suggest is sensible!

    But heck, it’s always good to have NCD!
     
  8. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Thanks for that, DTR. My Z-Best cab has a combined Celestion G12H-30 and G12M-Creamback. It's a huge sounding cab that is closed back and ported in the front. It's also very light. I always appreciated that speakers affect tone, but have only really started noticing the differences. The Creamback has nice grizzle to it. I have one in a Carr Mercury V that absolutely SLAYS. I need more wattage, though, so I'm in the middle of the tone hunt (perpetually). I wonder how a V30/Alnico combination would sound? V30/Alnico Gold? I never considered the effect of cab resistance until I realized that Brad Paisley will only play 16 ohm cabs, and I heard a convincing comparo video of 8 vs 16 ohm speakers in the exact same cab and amp. I thought it sounded more articulate. Might have to go buy them all...
     
  9. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Not so rare as you might think. And yes, NCDs rule!
     
  10. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Very cool. Why did you rewire the Avatar cab? Is it a 3D Avatar cab?
     
  11. DreamTheaterRules

    DreamTheaterRules Archon owning member

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    Z makes great cabs. That combination of speakers would be a "full range vintage" type cab, as opposed to two V30s which would be more modern. But V/Alnico mix is modern/vintage mix. I can tell you one thing... it would CUT.

    And yeah, Mercury V SLAYS! I'd love to have one of those, but don't need one with the 50 watt Archon head.
     
  12. dmatthews

    dmatthews Dave's not here...

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    Mostly because a 16ohm and a 4ohm in parallel would yield something like 3.2ohm, and that just doesn't appeal to my anal retentive nature.:p
    16 and 16 gives me 8ohm, and that matches one of the switches, Lol!
    The cab is a Contemporary Custom Birch.
     
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  13. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Very logical. I'm curious if anyone chooses 16 ohm cabs for their sound. Perhaps there's only one way to find out.
     
  14. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Do you ever find yourself playing at half power? I usually think the half power switch will come in handy someday, but have found I prefer the full power tone as well.
     
  15. dmatthews

    dmatthews Dave's not here...

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    And also, if you had a 16 and a 4ohm, the 4ohm would get 80% of the power... I think, so that's a possibly bad balance. 50/50 seems better.
    I think it's when you mismatch the impedance that you can tailor your tone a bit.
    It's OK to have a speaker with the same as or higher than the output, but not the reverse.
    I'm under the impression that a mismatch affects your mids the most, but I can't remember the ratio...
     
  16. DreamTheaterRules

    DreamTheaterRules Archon owning member

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    This is a deep subject, and I don’t pretend to be an expert, but even what I know, there is a lot to it. Let me first say that with guitar speakers, there is a fairly wide variance in how “identical models: will sound. These are not high fidelity drivers that are going in high end speakers or high end powered monitors. In fact, they are not made to be “pure.” They are made to create both frequency responses that vary from “flat” and contribute color in the form of distortions created by cone breakup. Duh!, right?

    So, if you delve much into speaker construction, you’ll quickly realize that two of the same speaker built to different impedance, won’t sound the same. A 16 ohm V30 doesn’t sound the same as an 8 ohm V30.

    So you have to know all that before you can get into amp OT theory. In theory, an amp will sound it’s “best” when used at the highest impedance the OT is wound for. So IF it has an OT wound for 16/8/4, a 16 ohm cab would sound the best because the other taps are tapping off early and aren’t using the full OT capacity. But, if it’s only an 8 ohm OT, then 8 ohm cabs should sound best.

    Problem with all that? If the 16 ohm speakers are different than the 8 ohm version of the same model, how the heck do you know which actually sounds better? You can’t, without experimenting.

    (Les Mode). “But DTR, why does tonemeister Brad Paisley only play on 16 ohms? Why do some vintage Marshall guys swear the same thing, that 16 ohms sound best?”

    (Les mode off). Depends on the amp, and the cab. If the amp is designed with a 16 ohm OT, and the amp designer designed the amp around that company’s 16 ohm cab model, then chances are good that is the best match.

    The moral of this story? When a really good amp designer designs an amp and cab together, buying the matching cab is often, but not always, your best bet.

    Edit: This is the tip of the iceberg... I’m sure you’re bored already anyway, since you’re going to Experience, so I’ll stop here.
     
    #16 DreamTheaterRules, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
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  17. ViperDoc

    ViperDoc New Member

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    Not bored in the least, I actually love this sh!t.

    By OT you mean "output transformer", I'm assuming. I'm still learning about all of the pieces, but really what got me into all of this lately is my Carr Mercury V amp. It is one of the very best amps I've ever heard. Its versatility and power tube distortion are impressive. I recently added an amp to the stable that I hoped was similarly designed but at a higher power rating and it's not floating my boat. Then I heard the Archon and my hopes were renewed. It's a completely different animal, but it seems to have what I also feel the Mercury V lacks (effects loop, master volume and channel switching).

    So because the Archon (and some of my other amps) has a 16 ohm speaker output, unless the ideal ohm rating for the amp is listed elsewhere, perhaps a 16 ohm cab is a worthy addition to the stable. And everyone reading this post would ceremoniously exclaim, "HELL YEAH IT IS!!!!" Well, amen to that!!!!
     
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  18. DreamTheaterRules

    DreamTheaterRules Archon owning member

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    I’m just saying, don’t buy your next cab specifically because it’s 16 ohm. Buy the cab’ speaker combo that matches what you want tonally. I have no 16 ohm cabs and combining any two makes mine 4 ohms. Buy something that matches what you want tonally.

    Get the Archon, try it with your cab, and then let us know how close that is to “perfect” for you. Then and only then would I, or probably anyone else here, suggest another cab/speaker... unless they knew exactly what you listened to and played and what tones you were shooting for.
     
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  19. LSchefman

    LSchefman Hears Tones

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    In line with what DTR is saying...

    On the theory that the amp builder would match a cab with a specific impedance to the amp if it mattered much, I figured I’d take a look at PRS’ cabs to see if PRS makes a specific cab for the Archon (no). The 1x12s (I’ve had one) is 16 ohms. The 2x12s (I have two currently) are 8 ohms. And the 4x12 is 16 ohms.

    When I had the 1x12, I used it with my HXDA30. Of course, it sounded different from the 2x12; I prefer 2x12s anyway, so I have no idea if my 2x12, 8 ohm preference with the HXDA had a single thing to do with the cab’s impedance. I moved the 16 ohm 1x12 on; it sounded pretty nice, but I’m a 2x12 (or 4x12) guy and have been since 1968 when I bought a Blackface Bassman with a matching 4x12, my first cab with more than one speaker.

    I haven’t heard the HXDA with a 16 ohm PRS 2x12 or 4x12 cab. The last 16 ohm cab I played through was a late 60s Marshall 4x12 at another studio, but I had a Two-Rock onyx at the time. Sounded absolutely glorious, but I’m not sure whether that had anything to do with the resistance.

    My guess is that the best way to know the answer to this question is to get a cab and try it in an 8 ohm configuration, and in a 16 ohm configuration, and listen to the result. Not many folks would bother with that (I sure wouldn’t have the energy or that much curiosity), but the minute you try two different brands/types of cabs, there are just too many variables to know if the impedance had anything to do with the tone of the amp.

    Or, you could get a load box, and try it in 16 ohms and 8 ohms direct into a recording setup and see which sounds better. However, I think that might be less instructive because a load box ain’t a cab.

    This is definitely an interesting topic.
     
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  20. elvis

    elvis Hamfisted String Banger

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    I did early on, but the cleans break up more and the leads get squishy. I only use 100W mode now.
     
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