Talent. Is it Really 60% Nature, 40% Nurture, Or What?

László

Too Many Notes
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
34,499
Location
Michigan
I don't understand why I can write music, especially orchestral music, and others can't do the exact same thing.

I've done a little research - just enough to be dangerous - that leads me to conclude that talent is 60% nsture and 40% nurture.

But that's just a guess based on reading STUFF. I don't really know. Yet, I'd like to know this because:

My son's a terrific composer. My granddaughter does amazing things in professional musical theater. I have two ancestors who were composers. Is it nature, or nurture? Incidentally, my parents were musical but couldn't compose.

Thoughts??

One more question: If you can compose music, is it at all important that you do so?
 
I can only speak for myself and with me it's nuture. I mean, yeah I have a talent for music but I've always been one of those people who's had to work very hard at it. For years I sat around with a guitar and came up with tons of bit's for songs but nothing more. Then I got laid off in January of 2009 and for the next 10 months song after song came out of me. So I guess all that "prep work" beforehand paid off so to say.

But even now when I play at church I really have to work at it. I come up with a lot of original bits for the songs and it takes a lot of work on my part. Once in a while I get lucky and something falls into my lap but not as often as I'd like it to!

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. That's me.
 
Used to be. Nowadays, I write and mail letters to encourage folks. A needed contrast because of what we typically read or see in the news or on TV.

My nephew and niece followed in my steps and pursued classical and jazz music. My nephew studied at a local music college and is a professional singer as a church cantor, and is regularly commissioned for weddings and bar/bat mitzvahs. My nephew sometimes tries out for local music theater. His strength, though, is professional singing, not acting.

My niece studied jazz with the likes of Wynton Marsalis and Quincy Jones at Jazz @ Lincoln Center Youth Orchestra. I usually don't mention this, but she graduated from Temple University with high honors and received her Master's Degree in Brain & Psychological Development from Harvard in 2020. Her plans were to use her education to help teach music students with ADD or ADHD focus on the music and be able to play instruments more effectively with less emphasis on the health condition and more respects hearing and playing well.

Just noticed your post regards your granddaughter and Fiddler. My nephew played Möttel the tailor in Fiddler some years ago. Happy to see your granddaughter with similar yearnings.
 
Last edited:
I can come up with parts out the wazoo and seem to be decent at structuring but I CAN NOT write lyrics. I've had success with lyrics once in my life and that's it.

Quite a few on my dads side were musical but it was always just dabbling in it.

I on the other hand started guitar early in HS and have been active ever since and I'm 57 now.
 
Well, I think the answer to the post title question is, it varies from person to person. Some have natural talent oozing out of there pores (some use it, some don't), and it takes nearly zero nurture to produce/compose. Others have little talent, but they pour their heart and efforts into composing, but it is a lot more work. Results of either scenario may produce better work in some peoples minds, others not so much, that is all subjective. And then of course, most people are somewhere in the middle I would imagine with a balance of the two.

The final question in the original post, if you can compose, is it all important that you do compose boils down to the what makes you happy. Here of course, we go back to the individuality. It varies from person to person. If composing gives you pleasure, provides you with joy or relief, makes YOU feel good, then YES, you MUST compose to be happy. If you look at it as work though, then I would say the answer would be "not necessarily". It comes down to what motivates you, what gives you joy, etc. If you have the natural talent, it would seem a shame that you don't utilize it, but it is all just personal decisions of what you want to spend your life's time on!

I know on this forum of two individuals who have expressed a severe lack of motivation to play at this point in their lives (and they both own a very nice selection of guitars including PS). I at this point in my life am motivated to play every single moment I have available and do so until my voice gives up or my fingers or shoulder give up. Usually though, it is life's responsibilities that prevents me from playing the amount I want to play/compose!
 
Nature or nurture is a tough call. My mom and her sister played piano and sang like gifts from heaven. Only one of their 5 brothers played anything, and that was banging on drums. I think in their childhood, girls were encouraged to play piano.

I was the only one in my generation who played anything. My ear isn’t as good as my mom or aunt, but I have a good feel and rhythm. That came far ahead of any skills so I think that’s a point for nature. Having a keyboard to pound on, and not being chased away from it encouraged my interest, so point for nurture.

I really don’t think you have a chance of being an accomplished musician without a measure of both.

As to composing, as crap as I might be, I was only ever interested in playing as a way to express my own ideas. I’ve played many songs other people wrote, but mostly as a vehicle to exercise my technical skills and find ideas to steal.

So, to the question of importance of composition: it is critical. It’s my musical identity. Perhaps more important, it’s been my meditation for over 50 years. I never really thought of it this way before you asked (so thank you Les), but I started sleeping much better after I could play well enough for it to be a good emotional outlet.
 
For me, I have zero musical talent. It's 100% nurture.

When I was kid, always want to learn how to play the guitar. But never had the opportunity. When I was in college, I took a Guitar 101 type class where I learned the basics along with some music theory. I have taken lessons off and on through out my adult life. Everything I can do on a guitar (which isn't much) I learned by practice and repetition.
 
I’m sure it varies by percentage person to person, but I’d agree with the 60/40ish split Les suggests. Obviously we are taught things, and no one learns to play without, at the least, learning some structure and rules. Then we are influenced by the music we’re exposed to. But creating music… that’s internal getting out more than external being regurgitated.

The inspiration versus perspiration quotient, and likely as undefinable as most any creative inspiration. To me, it’s a gift and a blessing, and one that becomes more beautiful because it‘s mixed with your own effort and essence. Most things we value are like that… part gift, part grit.
 
I can only speak for myself and with me it's nuture. I mean, yeah I have a talent for music but I've always been one of those people who's had to work very hard at it. For years I sat around with a guitar and came up with tons of bit's for songs but nothing more. Then I got laid off in January of 2009 and for the next 10 months song after song came out of me. So I guess all that "prep work" beforehand paid off so to say.

But even now when I play at church I really have to work at it. I come up with a lot of original bits for the songs and it takes a lot of work on my part. Once in a while I get lucky and something falls into my lap but not as often as I'd like it to!

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. That's me.
Yet I also work very hard at it. It's my full-time occupation.

Talent is simply the base on which the work is built. However, nurture I was referencing means that your parents or other significant folks in your life gave you encouragement and provided you with the means to obtain basic skills.

My son once spent an evening at a party where he was lucky enough to talk with Paul McCartney. When he asked Paul how he wrote such great songs, the reply was, "Writing songs is what I do, I write every single day." He's not working on this stuff for lack of talent. He still works hard at it.
 
Last edited:
I believe we are all seeded for greatness in various things. Most likely that seed is seldom watered and or we ourselves talk ourselves out of said greatness by thinking we aren't good enough or listening to the liars who said we weren't. I have learned that greatness, actually anything above the norm in anything, will require risk and deep diving into the unknown. Comfort is often times an enemy and we stick to the familiar when just on the other side of the door (which is usually fear) is the treasure trove we were mining all along.

Words and thoughts are powerful. What are you allowing into the soil of your life? What is your self talk? What are you thinking? Is it success or creativity or are fear and negativity at the forefront? Society is very good at boxing people in and labeling them in addition to discouraging them (often times without even realizing it).

Your passion is tied into your talent in most instances and a person must be willing to push on those things and see what opens and expands in those areas. As you do, things form and take shape and you begin finding your way or niche so to speak and that is where you are at your best. Accepting that and being ok with whatever that is is vitally important because it is easy for us to talk ourselves out of things.

The seed form is there yet it most likely takes something or somebody (Maybe both or more) to nurture and develop that talent and push the buttons and stretch the person to extract things. It can be done on your own but I find in most cases having that mentor or resource available to nurture is crucial.

Where we are at as a society doesn't really produce that like it once did. We have gotten comfortable with convenience and a now mentality. This stuff takes time and consistency in most instances. There are less mentors today. Less apprentices today and that kind of thing hurts us IMO. When one can impart what they have into somebody else and help guide and develop that person(s) and push them further down their path it is a wonderful thing. The buy in has to be there and you have to be willing to go for it. You are the best you in the world. Nobody can do what you can do better than you. That is the truth yet so few believe that and to me, that is the first hurdle to overcome.

In Summary, ;)

1) You are born for greatness
2) You are seeded for greatness
3) Greatness resides within you now
4) Everything you will ever need in seed form is within you right now
5) You have to see the vision/dream and believe it or buy into it and begin
6) Having the encouragement, mentorship, nurturing along the way is vital
7) Every move is educational and valuable in your journey, especially the mistakes
8) Do Not Discouraged
9) Do Not Quit
10) Be willing to give what you have away and you will continue growing. Seed time/harvest time.
 
I think it has to do with a lot of things.

Firstly, most everyone has fundamental cognitive processing for pitch, beat, and rhythm processing.

This combined with your physical structure also plays an important role . i.e. everyone can sing, some do better than others because of the way their head physically resonates with their voice.

I would guess the above paired with one's ability to stay focused contributes a lot to the nature side of things.


Nurture has a lot to do with education (formal or otherwise) and what I believe to be a huge factor here is what you listen to.

What I find interesting are areas of study like aural skills where you take a pre-existing ability and exercise it so you develop and can hear a piece and correctly notate it without the aid/reference of an instrument (dictation) and the opposite where you are given a notated piece and perform it without the aid of an instrument (sight-singing.)
 
Talent is simply the base on which the work is built. However, nurture I was referencing means that your parents or other significant folks in your life gave you encouragement and provided you with the means to obtain basic skills.

I've encountered some childish moments of jealousy here and there. Not "nurturing" at all.

When I was laid off from January 2009 through March of 2010 I did a lot of writing and recording at home. I was also working with an old bandmate (Jim) by helping him with songs he had written and we were having a blast. No problem at all with the two of us.

We had a mutual friend (Tom) who Jim and both knew for years. It's strange, but Tom had and still has Jim up on a pedestal for some reason. Way up. I was writing more songs than Jim but then Jim was still working. Tom didn't like the fact I was writing more. I was over at Toms house one night talking about the songs we were writing and Tom got a very angry, wide eyed expression on his face. He started breathing very heavy through his nose, looked down and said "how come you're writing more than Jim?" (W...T...F????). I couldn't believe it. I mean, he was pissed! I was stunned he would say such a thing. All I said was "uh, because I've got more time on my hands than Jim." We're still friends although it's very seldom I see him or his wife anymore. I don't need that kind of negativity.

There's been other moments here and there and surprisingly those moments have been at church with one individual. Nothing quite along the lines of the above story, but enough to tell me this individual was on the insecure side and was threatend by me. (Various reasons). I kept it to myself and to his credit, in time he came to settle down a lot and realized that along certain lines I know what I'm talking about. I don't always have the answer but when I speak up and point out the error in something that was played he totally pays attention to what I say. I don't speak up for the sake of it. Fact is I'm the quietest one at our practices. But if something is wrong I'm the one waving his arms saying "that was not right" or "we have to tighten this up." It's all good.
 
I have no idea where my singing voice appeared from, it was just something I was always able to do.

On more than one occasion band mates and friends have commented on it. It is the thing I have to work on least when practicing.

Playing trumpet comes as second nature too. Guitar playing is where I have to make the effort.

I’ve become lazy, vocally and need to remember to warm up before wailing.
 
I believe we are all seeded for greatness in various things. Most likely that seed is seldom watered and or we ourselves talk ourselves out of said greatness by thinking we aren't good enough or listening to the liars who said we weren't. I have learned that greatness, actually anything above the norm in anything, will require risk and deep diving into the unknown. Comfort is often times an enemy and we stick to the familiar when just on the other side of the door (which is usually fear) is the treasure trove we were mining all along.

Words and thoughts are powerful. What are you allowing into the soil of your life? What is your self talk? What are you thinking? Is it success or creativity or are fear and negativity at the forefront? Society is very good at boxing people in and labeling them in addition to discouraging them (often times without even realizing it).

Your passion is tied into your talent in most instances and a person must be willing to push on those things and see what opens and expands in those areas. As you do, things form and take shape and you begin finding your way or niche so to speak and that is where you are at your best. Accepting that and being ok with whatever that is is vitally important because it is easy for us to talk ourselves out of things.

The seed form is there yet it most likely takes something or somebody (Maybe both or more) to nurture and develop that talent and push the buttons and stretch the person to extract things. It can be done on your own but I find in most cases having that mentor or resource available to nurture is crucial.

Where we are at as a society doesn't really produce that like it once did. We have gotten comfortable with convenience and a now mentality. This stuff takes time and consistency in most instances. There are less mentors today. Less apprentices today and that kind of thing hurts us IMO. When one can impart what they have into somebody else and help guide and develop that person(s) and push them further down their path it is a wonderful thing. The buy in has to be there and you have to be willing to go for it. You are the best you in the world. Nobody can do what you can do better than you. That is the truth yet so few believe that and to me, that is the first hurdle to overcome.

In Summary, ;)

1) You are born for greatness
2) You are seeded for greatness
3) Greatness resides within you now
4) Everything you will ever need in seed form is within you right now
5) You have to see the vision/dream and believe it or buy into it and begin
6) Having the encouragement, mentorship, nurturing along the way is vital
7) Every move is educational and valuable in your journey, especially the mistakes
8) Do Not Discouraged
9) Do Not Quit
10) Be willing to give what you have away and you will continue growing. Seed time/harvest time.
Some people were born for greatness, others had it thrust upon them in the heat of battle. Me, i stepped in it on the way to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
 
The formula is more nuanced than that and hard to put into % terms. I do a lot of research on general intelligence (G-factor) and in the case of intelligence, it is largely inherited (nature) ie. you normally cannot "study" for an IQ test and do better (again many nuances but outside the scope). I believe to be good at anything in life, G-factor has a pivotal role. Depending on the activity, it can have a smaller or bigger impact. Athletic ability is also largely inherent and the more full-body the activity the more genetics play a role ie. when comparing basketball vs darts, basketball is much more dependent on genetics compared to darts as the motions are more specialized in darts and thus can be more narrowly focused by any "normal" individual. Certainly, there is going to be the Lebron James equivalent in the darts world, however it will not, as clearly, be defined by pure genetics. That being said, I believe guitar playing is somewhere between darts and basketball, although there is certainly a high degree of body mechanics involved and musical talent required, most people can get to 80~90% of the way through diligent practice. The top 10% is reserved for the genetic phenoms.
 
Back
Top