String tension on stoptail vs. trem bridge

[BWV548]

Interesting discussion.

I don’t bend notes; I warp the fabric of space-time with quantum mechanics, which not only permits more accurate pitch changes, it also allows me to be in two places at once. Plus, if you observe me doing it, the results change.

How can you be in two places at once, when you’re not anywhere at all?

 

[Tag]

It does feel like there’s more tension - my McCarty Singlecut was set up pretty stiff, but it isn’t actually tension that you’re feeling. What you’re feeling is that the strings are less easy to stretch (on bends, you’re stretching strings).

In other words, it feels stiffer. The words sometimes get interpreted loosely, but they mean different things.

If the tension was different, the pitch of the string would be different.

Just go to your local physics professor, and mention that you’ve got a stiffie.

Totally agree Les. It seems counterintuitive to me, but with the fingers tailpiece, you can check it in seconds. I also think thats exactly what the tailpiece is meant for. To increase or decrease string "tension". When you press down the string to a fret, you are bending it. Anyone who doubts this, go try a guitar with the fingers tailpiece. It will instantly change your mind.

 

[Rusty Chops]

It’s prehistoric!

Ah. MY era!

Even better.

 

[László]

How can you be in two places at once, when you’re not anywhere at all?

Always liked the Groucho and John Lennon cover on that one.

 

[BWV548]

Always liked the Groucho and John Lennon cover on that one.

I knew you would get the Firesign reference!

 

[Serious Poo]

The big difference between the two is the "give" that comes along with spring loaded trems. This is mainly noticeable when bending as it causes you to push a little further to hit the target note. The springs give, a stop tail doesn't.
For some it matters little, for me, I block off my trem so it reacts like a stop tail and has no "give". I don't use the bar so this works for me.

Bingo.

Also, trem systems are basically reverb tanks inside of the guitar bodies. As a result, IMHO trem guitars have both a spongier attack AND far more sustain and resonance than fixed bridge models due to the vibrating trem springs inside the body.

My take? Fixed bridges are great for punchy, tight and dynamic playing while trem bridges are better for smoother violin-like lead sounds. IMHO, YMMV, batteries not included, some assembly required, etc...

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I would say this: If we all agree that (and it's been proven) the break angle and string length past the nut matter, then how could we possibly think that the same thing wouldn't apply to the bridge end? I'd argue that a PRS wrap tail and a two piece HAVE TOO feel different, (string tension wise) and so would any other type setup, string through body, etc.).

There's also no question that a blocked or down only bridge bends easier because with a full floating bridge, it starts to bend with the pulling on the note, requiring more pull. I don't think anyone disputes this. But I see lots of guys who dispute the first part about fixed bridges.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

If the tension was different, the pitch of the string would be different.

I'm no scientist, although I know Sergio, and he plays one on TV, but... If this is true, whey does a strat high E string tuned to E have more tension than a PRS guitar tuned to E, with the same guage string. If tension was the only factor, that wouldn't be true. This is where the string length past the nut, etc., comes in. This is why you've heard me say for years that I don't like the way strats bend on the high strings. 6 on one side makes that string 4-5" longer past the nut than a PRS would be with the 3x3 setup headstock. I've played 25 1/2 scale PRS guitars and they still bend easier on the high strings because of this. And so does my Cutlass.

It takes more tension to tune a note to a given pitch, the longer the string is. So whether that extra length comes past the nut, past the bridge or in between, the longer the string the more tension it takes to tune it to pitch. I read this years ago as the explanation for why strats were harder to bend the higher strings on, and later it was said to be one of the reasons Hendrix preferred the backwards guitar instead of just playing a left handed strat.

 

[László]

I read this years ago as the explanation for why strats were harder to bend the higher strings on, and later it was said to be one of the reasons Hendrix preferred the backwards guitar instead of just playing a left handed strat.

I’ve read that, too. Though it could be yet another urban legend.

I’m a sub-urban legend. In my own mind.

 

[Deleted member 5962]

I’ve read that, too. Though it could be yet another urban legend.

I’m a sub-urban legend. In my own mind.

So, we have more in common than we thought!

Yes, again, I'm no scientist, but what I read made sense, and they guy who wrote it was actually using a digital scale, pulling on the strings and seeing how much weight/pressure it too to bend them. He used a tuner to prove he was bending them up one whole step so that you had a solid reference point, and showed on camera the scale readings to support his findings. Very interesting stuff and confirmed what my fingers told me all along. The high strings on strats are harder to bend for a reason, and I DON'T LIKE IT! LOL

 

[Deleted member 5962]

Les, I just realized, I’m a Sub-urban legend in my own mind... Small town boy. Guess I’ll have to find something else that we have in common.

 

[Collywobbles]

Agree - you can do the same with your trem equipped PRS. Almost deck the saddles and tune to pitch and level the trem body so it's parallel with the guitar's body using the springs / claw. Then raise the saddles and retune and the trem will have a very noticable forward tilt due to increased string tension. Trev Wilkinson writes about this in Dan Erlwine's book. Having tried it, it's true

Edit: Trev Wilkinson says it's to do with the extra mechanical advantage the strings get when the saddles are raised, which makes sense. I also wonder if the very slight increase in string length might be a factor too.

As a foot note and reply to my own post...

I'm a tinkerer so having run both my guitars at minimal relief for a while I suddenly though 'I know I'll put them back to spec' so added some relief. This also raises the action meaning I dropped the saddle heights a small amount to compensate. Even this was enough to reduce the string tension (saddles going down reduces leverage / mechanical advantage) causing the claw springs to need slackening off. I lost around half the upbend initially - so from 50 cents high E to around 25 cents before I slackened off the claw screws. It's quite amazing just how sensitive the trem balance is to changes.