String tension on stoptail vs. trem bridge

[P90s]

I know that the angle of the string break on the headstock impacts string tension. All things being equal on two PRS guitars, does one bridge create greater string tension than the other?

 

[veinbuster]

Same gauge on the same scale has to be the same tension to give the same note...so, I have to say no.

 

[CatStrangler]

this is a classic debate on TGP going back decades. I think everybody accepts that two instruments of the same scale tuned the same pitch with the same string gauge have strings with equal tension. Break angle and length of string behind nuts and saddles in my experience indisputably affect the feel, and this may be more about overall elasticity or compliance than tension.

Here is a nice discussion on the subject:

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

As per Huggy's response, this may be more relevant to different types of fixed bridges.

 

[Huggy Love]

The big difference between the two is the "give" that comes along with spring loaded trems. This is mainly noticeable when bending as it causes you to push a little further to hit the target note. The springs give, a stop tail doesn't.
For some it matters little, for me, I block off my trem so it reacts like a stop tail and has no "give". I don't use the bar so this works for me.

 

[CatStrangler]

The big difference between the two is the "give" that comes along with spring loaded trems. This is mainly noticeable when bending as it causes you to push a little further to hit the target note. The springs give, a stop tail doesn't.

Definitely agree with these points, and mostly have trems for the reason that I like the give.

 

[tuttle.ew]

All things being equal, the physical tension would measure the same. It would be the apparent tension (the feel) that would change. Because the headstock angle is the same, you'd likely only feel the difference nearer the bridge.

Given the slight increase in string length behind the saddle and the softer angle, I'd say that the term will feel softer (even if blocked).

Playing hard and the balance of string gauge and spring tension opens another door for the feel aspect of the picking hand and possibly the fretting hand (ie temporarily going out of tune during big bends).

Of course, I have no pure scientific method to show for this... but I recently had this question myself and came to the conclusion from reading and experimenting.

 

[Rider1260]

This was interesting so I went downstairs to try , I grabbed the two guitars with the closest specs I had

1) Modern Eagle 2 - 25"scale 22 frets WF neck PRS Stop Tail
2) 408 Standard with rosewood neck 25" Scale 22 frets Pattern Neck PRS Trem ( 4 springs )

Here is what I felt - for chords and single note line the is little or no difference, there is a slight advantage when bending on the stop tail
If there was any difference I would say the Stoptail was slightly looser feeling if at all.

 

[AP515]

As has been said already, there is NO difference to string tension on the fretboard. The tension creates the pitch. If the pitch is the same the tension has to also be the same. What is very different on different headstock angles is the tension behind the nut. The larger the angle the higher the tension (it's simply physics: vector forces in non linear systems).

Now to the OP's question. Will the tension be different on the two bridges? We already know it won't be at the portion of the string that vibrates. There might be some small difference in the distance of string that goes into the two different bridges but that won't affect what you feel while playing. Scale length will, the give of a trem will, the string gauge will, but not the tension.

 

[Spikedog007]

I just asked about something similar on TGP. Many were saying they like the stop tail bridge better than a TOM, so I asked why. One of the responses was the strings feel slinkier, easier to bend. I haven't formed an opinion on this yet but between my Starla with a bigsby and my SC58 with a TOM, the SC58 feels a little easier to bend. So I might have to agree.

 

[Robertkoa]

Same gauge on the same scale has to be the same tension to give the same note...so, I have to say no.

BUT - IF you actually PLAY 2 Guitars 25" scale length same strings and 1]one has a Stoptail Bridge

2]one has strings going all the way through body .

No trems, same strings , same hands - same headstock Angle , neck pitch etc etc..you may need 2 Carvins to try it for exactness of the 2 models = most Builders don't offer string thru pr stoptail on the same exact model.

And I think Stoptail Teles and Strats are very rare...

The Guitar with strings all the way thru body will be harder to bend up a whole step with a a nice even vibrato.

Try it .

Don't give me some mathematical , theoretical thing , try it.

Is it a subtle difference? - not really .

The tension might be the same but in one instance - you have 27 or 28 inches under tension ..

And in the other you might have 29 or 30 inches under tension = harder to bend ...

OR it could be break angle ..don't care - I just know that chances are high that string thru body feels tighter ...stoptail feels looser and enables heavier strings for phatter tones.

 

[Tone-y]

Huggy Bs got it.
If you've got your trem set up floating, then any string bends will also pull the bridge up and flatten the note, meaning that you have to bend the string further to reach pitch. This isn't technically an increase in string tension, but as you have to bend further to reach the same pitch as you would on a hard tail, you have to put more effort in to do it so you perceive it as higher tension.
By decking the trem you can alleviate this as the bridge then shouldn't move when you bend a note.

 

[László]

Interesting discussion.

I don’t bend notes; I warp the fabric of space-time with quantum mechanics, which not only permits more accurate pitch changes, it also allows me to be in two places at once. Plus, if you observe me doing it, the results change.

 

[Tim S]

Huggy Bs got it.
If you've got your trem set up floating, then any string bends will also pull the bridge up and flatten the note, meaning that you have to bend the string further to reach pitch. This isn't technically an increase in string tension, but as you have to bend further to reach the same pitch as you would on a hard tail, you have to put more effort in to do it so you perceive it as higher tension.
By decking the trem you can alleviate this as the bridge then shouldn't move when you bend a note.

So, on a trem guitar, if I want to bend notes by pulling on the headstock, I'm better off decking the trem.

 

[Tone-y]

So, on a trem guitar, if I want to bend notes by pulling on the headstock, I'm better off decking the trem.

Err, if bending notes by pulling on the headstock is exactly how it sounds, then yes I guess so, you'd have to pull the headstock less to get to the same pitch. Though the actual difference between the two could be marginal to the point of not making a lot of difference

 

[Rusty Chops]

... I warp the fabric of space-time...

You sure do!

But is it pre- CBS fabric?

 

[Tag]

As has been said already, there is NO difference to string tension on the fretboard. The tension creates the pitch. If the pitch is the same the tension has to also be the same. What is very different on different headstock angles is the tension behind the nut. The larger the angle the higher the tension (it's simply physics: vector forces in non linear systems).

Now to the OP's question. Will the tension be different on the two bridges? We already know it won't be at the portion of the string that vibrates. There might be some small difference in the distance of string that goes into the two different bridges but that won't affect what you feel while playing. Scale length will, the give of a trem will, the string gauge will, but not the tension.

This is false. Take a Guitar (I have a gibson lee rit l5) with a fingers tailpiece that you can increase tension behind the bridge by screwing up or down on each string. Loosen it as much as possible (decrease angle over bridge), tune it up, play and bend a string.....now tighten it way down, retune, play and bend a string...MUCH harder to bend the string. No idea why, but its clearly there. The more arthritis you have in your fingers, the easier it is to tell.

 

[Collywobbles]

This is false. Take a Guitar (I have a gibson lee rit l5) with a fingers tailpiece that you can increase tension behind the bridge by screwing up or down on each string. Loosen it as much as possible (decrease angle over bridge), tune it up, play and bend a string.....now tighten it way down, retune, play and bend a string...MUCH harder to bend the string. No idea why, but its clearly there. The more arthritis you have in your fingers, the easier it is to tell.

Agree - you can do the same with your trem equipped PRS. Almost deck the saddles and tune to pitch and level the trem body so it's parallel with the guitar's body using the springs / claw. Then raise the saddles and retune and the trem will have a very noticable forward tilt due to increased string tension. Trev Wilkinson writes about this in Dan Erlwine's book. Having tried it, it's true

Edit: Trev Wilkinson says it's to do with the extra mechanical advantage the strings get when the saddles are raised, which makes sense. I also wonder if the very slight increase in string length might be a factor too.

 

[László]

This is false. Take a Guitar (I have a gibson lee rit l5) with a fingers tailpiece that you can increase tension behind the bridge by screwing up or down on each string. Loosen it as much as possible (decrease angle over bridge), tune it up, play and bend a string.....now tighten it way down, retune, play and bend a string...MUCH harder to bend the string. No idea why, but its clearly there. The more arthritis you have in your fingers, the easier it is to tell.

It does feel like there’s more tension - my McCarty Singlecut was set up pretty stiff, but it isn’t actually tension that you’re feeling. What you’re feeling is that the strings are less easy to stretch (on bends, you’re stretching strings).

In other words, it feels stiffer. The words sometimes get interpreted loosely, but they mean different things.

If the tension was different, the pitch of the string would be different.

Just go to your local physics professor, and mention that you’ve got a stiffie.

 

[jfb]

It does feel like there’s more tension - my McCarty Singlecut was set up pretty stiff, but it isn’t actually tension that you’re feeling. What you’re feeling is that the strings are less easy to stretch (on bends, you’re stretching strings).

In other words, it feels stiffer. The words sometimes get interpreted loosely, but they mean different things.

If the tension was different, the pitch of the string would be different.

Just go to your local physics professor, and mention that you’ve got a stiffie.

I'm not sure about physics professors, but there is at least one math professors I'd like to try that on.

 

[László]

You sure do!

But is it pre- CBS fabric?

It’s prehistoric!