Strange intonation (?) issue

[mezzio]

Lately I've been "learning" how to do my own setups, mostly because I know I can only blame myself if something goes wrong, I can only blame myself... and I think its important to ones self to know how every aspect of their equipment works, and I wanted to "hard tail" my tremolo bridge.

So I set up my SE CU24, get the bridge locked down, springs set to keep it down, get the perfect neck relief, perfect action (for me), and even intonation is spot on. Everything plays fast and smooth, there's not a buzz anywhere to be found, and strings are no longer slipping over my fingers when I do big bends, of course that could be because I've been working on a different technique too, regardless, its what I would consider as close to perfect as my hand could want.

I've run in to a small problem though with my low E string which I can only attribute to intonation. When I play a G (3rd fret), its sharp. Its not just a little sharp, its very sharp, and its only that note. Anyone have any ideas how or why this could be happening? Since I've noticed it, I've also noticed the note is used a lot more than I thought, and it makes me cringe when I hear it, lol.

 

[alantig]

Have you tried checking the intonation elsewhere on the string? With a tuner, that is, not just by ear. Maybe a slightly high fret (although that doesn't seem too likely).

Have you tried fingering the note different ways? I'm assuming you have, that it's not just the way you're fretting a certain chord.

It could be a bad string - I've had cases where strings acted weird on certain notes, but a fresh set took the problem away completely.

Do you have a capo? I'm wondering if you capo'ed at the first or second fret if that note would still be off.

 

[Rider1260]

First thing is what kind of tuner are you using to do intonation some tuners can be off as much as +/- 5 cents which is a lot for intonation I can get by with a Polytune but a strobe is best.

Found this awhile back.
http://www.pjguitar.com/website/forums/articles/intonation.html

and this way to tune troublesome guitars I found on another forum

For starters, you should be comparing the open string notes to the fretted 12th when checking intonation. It'll give you more accurate results. Secondly, your tuning method is all wrong. Think about this, when you play the guitar do a) perform mostly all harmonics or b) you play it by fretting the strings?
If you said b, then why would you be tuning by using harmonics? Natural harmonics, like the ones you use when tuning are not going to allow you to tune a guitar very accurately simply because you are not fretting the notes. When you fret the strings, you are slightly stretching out each string so that it touches the fret wire where it can then make the new note. This stretch is important to remember, as it's actually causing each string to go sharp a tad. That tad bit is enough to throw off your entire guitar if you've previously tuned up solely by using harmonics, which don't involve pressing the strings down onto the frets.

Here's a much better method of tuning, and is highly accurate.
First off, get your intonation all set by comparing the open string notes to the fretted 12th. Adjust your saddles accordingly so that you are as close as possible. Retune the open strings as needed until you get these back in line with each other. Forget about any harmonics for now, they aren't helping you.

Now, start the fine tuning process as follows:
Tune your high E string as accurately as possible to an electronic tuner. Try to get it right on if you can. Then, fret the 2nd, or B string, at the 5th fret and compare to the open 1st string. Adjust the 2nd string to match the open first.
Fret the 3rd string at the 9th and compare it to the open 1st. Adjust 3rd string until same.
Fret the 4th string at the 14th fret and compare it to the 1st. Adjust 4th string until same.
Fret the 5th string at the 7th fret and compare to the 1st string. Adjust the 5th until it's the same as the 1st.
Fret the 6th string at the 12th fret and compare to the 1st string, and adjust the 6th until it's the same as the 1st.

When tuning up the way I've stated, you are creating a reference note, E, with which you are tuning the rest of the guitar to. If you do it right, the guitar will be very close to being in tune to itself all along the fretboard. Notice that you are fretting at various points along the fretboard? I've set those fret points for a reason so that you are getting E notes in the same or within 1 octave of the open high E string. You can use other locations for E as well, but if it's 2 octaves off from high E, you may not get as good of results.

Now, here's an excellent way of cross checking your first tuning method. This will tattle-tale on any string that may be off, and also tests your intonation simultaneously. This is where the harmonics come into the picture.
Perform a harmonic of the low E 6th string at the 12th fret and compare it to the fretted note of the 5th string at the 7th fret. Get the harmonic ringing first, then right away fret the A string at the 7th fret. They should ring out the same note, with no wavering, out of sync sound. Both are E notes.
Perform a harmonic of the 5th string at the 12th fret and compare to the 4th string 7th fret. Again, should be the same note, no wavering. Both are A notes.
Harmonic of 4th string at the 12th fret to the 3rd string fretted at the 7th. Both are D notes.
Harmonic of the 3rd string at the 12th fret to the 2nd string fretted at the 8th fret. Remeber to do the B string here at the 8th fret in order to match up the notes. Both are G notes.
Lastly, harmonic the 2nd string at the 12th and compare to the fretted 7th of the 1st string, high E. Both are B notes.

It sounds odd, and I'm sorry for it being so long winded, but this cross check does indeed work flawlessly, and will tell you how closely you are in tune, how accurate your intonation is and if you've done both set's correctly, your guitar will sound tons better. It may take a few times of doing this to get it down, but once you get used to it, you'll be able to do it in no time at all and you'll see results in your tuning and accuracy.

 

[mezzio]

I have a few different tuners I use, they all work pretty well IMO... probably not as well as the a TU2 or Polytune, but when I can afford to drop money on pedals, I'll add them to my collection of stuff taking up space, lol.

That being said, I've checked tuning up and down the entire neck, on every string, using ear, device, harmonics... everything checks out just fine. It's just that single G note on the low E string that's playing sharp. I have a relatively light touch when playing, so I really don't think it's my playing style, this is one instance where I'm going to blame the instrument. Now I just need to figure out WHY so I can fix it

 

[Tag]

I have a few different tuners I use, they all work pretty well IMO... probably not as well as the a TU2 or Polytune, but when I can afford to drop money on pedals, I'll add them to my collection of stuff taking up space, lol.

That being said, I've checked tuning up and down the entire neck, on every string, using ear, device, harmonics... everything checks out just fine. It's just that single G note on the low E string that's playing sharp. I have a relatively light touch when playing, so I really don't think it's my playing style, this is one instance where I'm going to blame the instrument. Now I just need to figure out WHY so I can fix it

If its a note you use a lot, maybe the fret is worn so that its "crown" is towards the pickups a bit, causing the string length to be slightly shorter and the note to be sharp? Other than a bad string which I have had and drove me CRAZY, thats all I can think of if you are checking everything else.

 

[shinksma]

If the F# right behind it, and the G# right in front of it both play perfectly in tune, then I too would suspect the fret wire under the string. perhaps it is worn unevenly, especially as you have noted you seem to play it a fair bit.

 

[VladanMovies]

When you say you checked by ear, did you listen to the amp, or unplugged?

 

[mezzio]

Well I feel kinda dumb, but shinksma put it in my head to at least look at the frets, and it did appear the wire on the low side under the low E was raised off the board a little bit. A couple taps with my "gun hammer" (a little nylon deadblow I use for knock out pins) and it sits flush with the fretboard again. Strung up the guitar with some shiny new cobalts and gave it a play, and it does sound a little better. Its only about 5cents off "perfect", as opposed to the 15-20 cents earlier.

I would guess even with a light touch a millimeter off from where you'd expect the wire to be could cause it? I just hope the wire stays in place for a few years and I don't need to get it replaced.

 

[alantig]

Well I feel kinda dumb, but shinksma put it in my head to at least look at the frets

What, no love???? :bawling:

Maybe a slightly high fret (although that doesn't seem too likely).

:tongue:

Seriously, glad you got it sorted out. I think I've heard of that happening, but I don't think I've ever actually seen it.

 

[shinksma]

Glad you got it sorted out, mostly. Yeah, props to alantig for the bad fret suggestion, I just expounded on it.

Being off by 15 cents means it was being pushed sharp by 15% to the G#...within 5 cents is better, but still will be noticable, of course. You may wish to take it in to a good guitar repair place and see if the can get it bang-on.

 

[mezzio]

Yes, my bad, thank you too atlantig, I apologize for missing it in the first reply. It was a case of too many words on a screen too small. It took me too days to change the strings this time around, and just skimmed through until I saw the word "wire". Everyone was helpful, and I'm grateful I have a place to go where I can ask these questions without a fee

I may end up going in to one of the shops here and see what they say... on the other hand, the guitar isnt even a year old yet, would fret wires coming up out of their slot warrant calling the PTC for warranty repair?

 

[alantig]

Yes, my bad, thank you too atlantig, I apologize for missing it in the first reply.

Aw, ain't no thing - just being a monkey and throwing a little crap your way! I'll blame it on being in a room with my wife and son and feeling extra ignored.

I may end up going in to one of the shops here and see what they say... on the other hand, the guitar isnt even a year old yet, would fret wires coming up out of their slot warrant calling the PTC for warranty repair?

For just one fret, I probably wouldn't. If it starts to become a pattern, then I'd at least open a conversation.

 

[alantig]

Yes, my bad, thank you too atlantig, I apologize for missing it in the first reply.

Aw, ain't no thing - just being a monkey and throwing a little crap your way! I'll blame it on being in a room with my wife and son and feeling extra ignored.

I may end up going in to one of the shops here and see what they say... on the other hand, the guitar isnt even a year old yet, would fret wires coming up out of their slot warrant calling the PTC for warranty repair?

For just one fret, I probably wouldn't. If it starts to become a pattern, then I'd at least open a conversation. And I'm talking at three frets, not six or seven. One may be a fluke. Three may be a fluke in some cases, but not with these.

 

[mezzio]

I know that feeling... any time the kids are in the room with my girlfriend, I might as well not exist, lol. That's when I usually get annoying and set some obnoxious model on my crummy Mustang amp, then the kids leave and I can talk